I guess you could still play the Mirage fetches. No cross-color ones, and obviously vulnerable to Waste. But maybe better than nothing? Wouldn't work in Tempo, but should be fine in 4C and Miracles.
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I guess you could still play the Mirage fetches. No cross-color ones, and obviously vulnerable to Waste. But maybe better than nothing? Wouldn't work in Tempo, but should be fine in 4C and Miracles.
I'll be bold:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Does it make a big difference for a 14yo showing interrest in the format if a compeditive deck is 1.6k or potentially 2.5k? In my books both are a totally unacceptable barrier to join the physical format. Joke is that MTGO isn't reasonable either. Can't blame people rather playing Hearthstone, Poker, etc from a monetary perspective.
Part of the pressure on the three-drop slot is that TNN can block them which makes their "creature-ness" worthless. Take Ramunap Excavator as an example: What good is it to have an attacking Crucible if you can't attack with it AND it dies to creature removal?Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
The idea is that without TNN there will be more of a need to be considerate in fair deck construction. There are creatures that are vulnerable to different kinds of removal but have different payoffs for being in play. Decks will be built in a way to maximize that payoff while minimizing the impact of removal.
Then there is the subjective but present "fun" consideration. Completely uninteractive cards aren't fun or interesting. I had two TNNs out and lost to the other guy who had one TNN and a Jitte. Thrilling! All of these contribute to the larger concerns about staleness in Legacy.
It's somewhere in between. TNN doesn't have a comes-into-play effect, but it does make creature removal less meaningful, which is the major complaint about the parade of ETB effects. You still have to untap with it to get value, yes; but it is incredibly likely that you WILL untap with it, because the few things that answer it are too inefficient to include en masse (unless Innocent Blood gets played a bunch, I suppose.)Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Everything in Legacy can theoretically be answered. You could've made the same arguments about Cruise, Dig, and Top which were the last three cards banned. Gaddock Teeg! Phyrexian Revoker! Graveyard removal! Krosan Grip!Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
I'm not even really talking about banning here. I'm discussing TNN as a key reason for two of the complaints about the format ITT:
1. Legacy is too homogenized
2. New cards can't impact Legacy
There are many cards that contribute to this fact, but TNN is toward the top of my list. Some may disagree, but it's just a discussion.
I think w/o TNN, Czech and BUG decks probably ramp up the Leotards, while UW Blade decks might opt for Geist or Clique. Fish probably forgoes 3-drops altogether. Delver also probably ditches 3-drops of adopts Leo.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
I think we might see more variety in 3 drops just because the next best options have different colour requirements.
With Ramunap I doubt it would see much more play because Maverick already runs it and who else would even want to? Maybe a SB card vs Lands and D&T?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
This might be true for the kids, but what about established players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
A lot of us would need to invest a tonne of money to acquire more duals at the newly inflated price-tag. Meanwhile selling out becomes more tempting than ever. I think all but the strongest communities would be in serious danger.
The price trajectory has always been going to annihilate Legacy just as it did Vintage eventually. It's only a matter of when, not if.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
If TNN is blocking, it's not killing you; doesn't that allow for some space to do busted things with lands from the bin? Also, at least in this comparison, how is TNN different from, say, a Gurmang Angler or a sufficiently large Tarmogoyf that is being Mazed?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I think the payoff for TNN is that it is very narrowly answerable - Ramunap Excavator may not be as hard to answer, but it can also allow you to do different degenerate things. It may very well be the most powerful thing a creature can be asked to do in Legacy is be both durable and unblockable (and certainly that is a boring role) but that ultimately doesn't really seem banworthy (which you acknowledged).
I actually think the answers to TNN are more broad and maindeckable in general than the answers to Treasure Cruise, Dig, and Top, but that's just a matter of degrees; I also wouldn't have banned Top, though, so maybe it's not for me to say. I'm just saying, if the issue is that a given deck just can't beat a sulfuric vortex for three or a hexproof darksteel myr, maybe it needs to make the concession of a couple of edict effects or something. That being said, I basically never play fair decks, so I might just not get the frustration on a gut level. I also think that Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time might just actually be on a different level in terms of power, answerable or not (ancestral recall versus arbitrary dude).Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
The difference is the size of the established player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
Legacy is fairly healthy (talking size, attendance), and only needs enough new players to counter the players who are dying or quitting.
I think I am in a similar boat. Then again, fair deck players are rarely sympathetic when their hate-bears frustrate our more narrow strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
It's not always easy for us to see past our own perspectives. I play Lands, and the meta looks rich and diverse. All my matches are different, interesting, and fun.
But maybe this is a very boring time to be playing fair-deck vs fair-deck Legacy.
Also, eg, I might think that if I can tolerate Sneak Show playing Lands, why are people playing FoW decks complaining? But maybe when you're not kicking the snot out of (almost) every fair deck in the field, S&T is a harder oil to swallow?
Once upon a time that sentiment applied to Type I too. Matter of time man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
As morgan_coke already hinted at, the end is inevitable with rising prices and the Legacy community getting constantly older and barely new, young players picking it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
At some point local events die and people sell out. Happened to me with Vintage. I remember when we had weekly events in Munich with 50+ players FOR VINTAGE. Good old days
I fixed a minor plumbing problem without making things worse last night! I practically got one foot in the grave over here! Won't be long before I sell the collection to pay for applesauce and adult diapers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Anecdotes aside, are you actually saying Vintage once had as large a player base as Legacy has now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I had this conversation the other day.
Standard sucks. Banning after banning, people will want to leave. They will move to Modern. But Modern will catch them and keep them. Your not going to move from a place where your deck costs a grand to where 3 cards in your mana base do. Your not going to find an easy time justifying that move.
People are moving into Modern, people are not moving out of it. Why would they? The scene is vibrant, they have no loyalty to Legacy and the idea that your lands don't hurt you is not worth the money it costs to play in our sand pit.
I'm very seriously considering getting out of legacy into modern. For the price of like 2 decks in legacy I can probably build almost any deck in modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
As someone who migrated to Legacy from Modern I gotta say that I would never consider selling my legacy deck to buy back into it. The games are so dependent on who you get matched up with and whether you draw your SB that skill doesn't feel like a factor. The formats don't even compare at this point. Legacy is way more fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Agree there, it's not uncommon to see Modern players trying to see how they can port their deck to Legacy. Modern is much more of a coin flip format, no matter how much CFB constantly puts out articles saying otherwise.
Modern's nowhere near as bad as Legacy players crack it up to be, and Legacy's not quite as skilltesting or amazing as its playerbase claims. That's not to say that Modern's gameplay is quite as good as Legacy's, but when you factor in price and availability of games, ditching Legacy for Modern isn't the worst idea. The main reason I'd advise against it is you'd be selling out of the Reserved List and buying into regularly reprinted cards.
You and I know that, but too many kids these days think of Legacy as a degenerate format of turn one wins. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Misersoneof
Agreed completely here. The more I've played modern it's fine. Legacy isn't super interesting right now and I think in Modern you can do more off the wall stuff right now, though the top decks besides Death's Shadow do tend to try to be linear and ignore the opponent which is annoying. The whole selling RL stuff for non RL stuff is definitely the biggest factor in being hesitant. I'll still keep a deck for legacy, but meh. The format has passed me by. When I was actually top 8ing opens I paid way more attention to the format than I do now. Time to just build my one true love Deadguy again and ride away in the sunsetQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuart