[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

The numbers do include your next draw step. And yes playing no spells will allow you to dig 1 card deep with your draw. I think it is relevant to count the draw since there are a large number of stacking effects that depending on what action you take (poping a fetch after a Brainstorm, Scrying cards on the bottom of the deck, or shuffling from a Portent) affects whether the card drawn for the turn is new and unknown.
I do understand that Bauble does allow for multple cantrips to be played turn one, but that requires you to actually have another one mana cantrip in hand (as all the options so far have been replacing some number of these with Baubles you can't just assume that you will have them in hand).

Right now it sounds like most of the arguements for Bauble seem to be we can replace these good cantrips that actually dig with a zero mana cycler with a minimally relevant ability if you have a Predict in hand. Plus since it costs zero you can still play a good cantrip that you now have less of in the deck because you are playing Bauble.

I don't believe that Mishra's Bauble is complete trash or can't work in the deck, I just think you have to understand what you are losing by making that choice.
It is possible that Mishra's Bauble would be better suited in the Mental Note versions as those tend to be more aggressive and the bauble could work with Mental Note for a faster Threshold.

Has anyone considered Strategic Planning? The major pitfall of it is it's Sorcery speed, yet it mills as much as Mental Note in exchange for card selection. I would normally play this in a heartbeat, except for how slow it is. Another option would be Omen, with the problem that it puts only itself in the 'yard.

The number one reason that Thres plays cantrips (other than Brainstorm) is because it's a way to fill the yard and reach threshold faster.

The fact remains that Bauble is the only card that lets you do it for free and thus also lets you play another cantrip for free the same turn. The fact remains that Thres runs on average 14 cantrips so you WILL have multiple cantrips in your opening hand. On top of which, it makes it so you're essentially playing a 56 card deck without investing any mana into doing so.

Given that, I think Strategic Planning to has a lot of potential too. It's a mental note, but with the card selection of brainstorm+fetchland, without a dependency of fetchlands.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

The number one reason that Thres plays cantrips (other than Brainstorm) is because it's a way to fill the yard and reach threshold faster.

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WRONG. The reason Thresh plays cantrips is to increase it's card quality, ensuring that it has the right answers at the right time. The fact that they fill the yard is secondary, although it allows you to play cost efficient creatures. This is why Baubles are bad, and it is the biggest argument against Mental Note. Neither one allows you to improve card quality, instead they just fill your yard.

But Mental Note is needed if you don't play Predict, which I don't. But I really don't want to start that argument again so nuff said there.

@Bauble:The biggest problem I have with it is IT CAN"T BE PITCHED TO FOW!! The only card that this could possibly replace is Portent(if you run it). I really think this kinda of a meh card for Gro.

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

But Mental Note is needed if you don't play Predict, which I don't. But I really don't want to start that argument again so nuff said there.

@Bauble:The biggest problem I have with it is IT CAN"T BE PITCHED TO FOW!! The only card that this could possibly replace is Portent(if you run it). I really think this kinda of a meh card for Gro.

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But do you think Stratigic Planning could replace Mentle Note? It mill the same amount, and allows for card selection. Also can be pitched for Force.

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Originally Posted by Goblin Snowman

But do you think Stratigic Planning could replace Mentle Note? It mill the same amount, and allows for card selection. Also can be pitched for Force.

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If you are going to add a 2cc cantrip Predict is the way to go ofcourse this probably requires running Portent as well to make Predict all more likely to draw you 2 cards. Strategic Planning is interesting and probably better than Note because you can decide what to throw into the yard. But it also costs 1 more mana and is harder to compare. Look at it like this.

Strategic Planning - 3 cards into the yard and 1 in your hand

Predict - 2 cards into the yard and most likely 2 cards in your hand

I think Predict is the better card since just getting that extra in your yard isn't as valuable as getting that extra card into your hand. Gro doesn't have much card advantage, but a little can go a long way.

You forgot to mention Predict offensive use against M. Tutor and E. Tutor. But running predict require you to run 4 Serum Visions and 4 Brainstrom, and it draws 2 maybe 1/2. S. Planning digs deeper as well, regardless of whether you draw two, in addition to milling more.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

WRONG. The reason Thresh plays cantrips is to increase it's card quality, ensuring that it has the right answers at the right time. The fact that they fill the yard is secondary

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If that was actually true, then not only would Thres not run Mental Note which most competitive builds do, but the early Thres builds wouldn't have run cards like opt and peek, which really didn't imrove card quality much if at all.

Yes, the inc is card quality is very important. But do you really think Thres wouldn't be running Peek today if none of the superior cantrips were ever printed.

I still think Bauble's ability to let you play two cantrips turn one, or leave 2 mana open turn 2 is undervalued. But I'll stop now, as it's clear that this discussion is just going to go in circles.

I think both Predict and Strategic Planning are viable based on the rest of the configuration.

Predict obviously works best if you're running...
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Bauble/Portent
3-4 Predict

Planning works best if you have less room for cantrips ala.
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Strategic Planning

This configuration often gets you to threshold faster, and also leaves your deck room to run newer bombs like Worship, Counterbalance? (Has this been tested at all? It works best with instant cantrips or Top) along with 2 Counterspell, 1-2 MisD and a full playset of both Daze and Swords to Plowshore.

Of course, your ability to filter through cards for the best ones when you need them suffers. But atleast you can run MisD which is a huge bomb against Deadguy, one of this deck's worse matchups.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

The fact remains that Bauble is the only card that lets you do it for free and thus also lets you play another cantrip for free the same turn. The fact remains that Thres runs on average 14 cantrips so you WILL have multiple cantrips in your opening hand. On top of which, it makes it so you're essentially playing a 56 card deck without investing any mana into doing so.

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Why not run both Baubles, then? According to your logic, you'd essentially be running a 52 card deck! There's a damn good reason Gro players aren't already running Urza's Bauble as a 4-of, part of which is that it says draw a card during the next upkeep. Finding a bauble in your opening hand may not be terrible, but finding one or two mid-game is awful because that's another turn you may have to wait to lay down a thresh'd Werebear or Mongoose. It also makes it less likely to chain cantrips because you don't get the card right then and there.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

Yes, the inc is card quality is very important. But do you really think Thres wouldn't be running Peek today if none of the superior cantrips were ever printed.

I still think Bauble's ability to let you play two cantrips turn one, or leave 2 mana open turn 2 is undervalued. But I'll stop now, as it's clear that this discussion is just going to go in circles.

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If you're going to compare one of the "worse" cantrips, Peek, against Mishra's Bauble, I'd have to give the nod to Peek, even though it costs infinitely more mana. Peek lets you see more than 1 card and it draws you a card right away like most of the other superior cantrips. The biggest advantage to the superior cantrips is they increase your card quality and build threshold. Bauble doesn't increase your card quality and neither does Mental Note.

Mishras bauble has much more card synergy with the deck than does urzas bauble or peek. And if you are so concerned with drawing cards during the next turns upkeep why do you play portent? And mishra's bauble unlike those other cards can increase the quality of your draws.

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Originally Posted by SuckerPunch

If that was actually true, then not only would Thres not run Mental Note which most competitive builds do, but the early Thres builds wouldn't have run cards like opt and peek, which really didn't imrove card quality much if at all.

Yes, the inc is card quality is very important. But do you really think Thres wouldn't be running Peek today if none of the superior cantrips were ever printed.

I still think Bauble's ability to let you play two cantrips turn one, or leave 2 mana open turn 2 is undervalued. But I'll stop now, as it's clear that this discussion is just going to go in circles.

I think both Predict and Strategic Planning are viable based on the rest of the configuration.

Predict obviously works best if you're running...
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Bauble/Portent
3-4 Predict

Planning works best if you have less room for cantrips ala.
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Strategic Planning

This configuration often gets you to threshold faster, and also leaves your deck room to run newer bombs like Worship, Counterbalance? (Has this been tested at all? It works best with instant cantrips or Top) along with 2 Counterspell, 1-2 MisD and a full playset of both Daze and Swords to Plowshore.

Of course, your ability to filter through cards for the best ones when you need them suffers. But atleast you can run MisD which is a huge bomb against Deadguy, one of this deck's worse matchups.

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Early thresh variants also ran Mis-D and dryad. Do you still see them seeing play? No, because they were found to be unnessesary. The reason opt and peek were ran was because of dryad. Do you honestly believe that 8 cards that mill yourself without scrying effects is a great idea? I question you. Bauble doesn't increase card quality it simply draws a card. I don't care what anyone says that's not increasing anything. It's cantripping at the low cost of a timewalk congrats.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

Early thresh variants also ran Mis-D and dryad. Do you still see them seeing play? No, because they were found to be unnessesary. The reason opt and peek were ran was because of dryad. Do you honestly believe that 8 cards that mill yourself without scrying effects is a great idea? I question you. Bauble doesn't increase card quality it simply draws a card. I don't care what anyone says that's not increasing anything. It's cantripping at the low cost of a timewalk congrats.

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It shows you your topcard, which means that you can shuffle your library if you'd rather see something else. And wtf do you mean by costing a Time Walk? All that happens is you won't be able to cast the card you draw the turn you pop Bauble. Big deal, it's not like you could normally do that anyways (maybe lategame when you have infinite mana, but early on, you either cast a cantrip or a creature). Now, I'm not saying Bauble is an auto-include or anything (since as said, it doesn't pitch to FoW and it's hard to find a slot for it in the deck), but it's got its benefits too, so it seems to warrant consideration.

I do not believe Bauble has a place in the deck.

It is not blue, so it does not pitch to Force of Will.

Comparing Bauble to any of the other cantrips being used, it clearly falls short.
Brainstorm and Serum Visions are clearly, obviously better cards. I would not even consider removing either for the Bauble. Even without a shuffle effect, Brainstorm digs deeper and faster then the Bauble.

Mental note and Bauble both yield one card in hand, but Mental note does it quickly and adds three cards to the graveyard. Bauble does it very slowly and adds a single card to the graveyard.

I cannot speak from personal experience about Predict and Portent, but Bauble really does not seem better then those two. I could see it as a possibility in these builds, but I still would much, much, much rather draw either of those two cards then Bauble. Arguing that you can play Bauble and another cantrip does not work very well if you are removing other cantrips from the deck to make room for Bauble. You may end up with one more cantrip, but you do not see nearly as many cards over the next few turns. It certainy does not make sense to remove buisness spells for another cantrip, and that leaves the Bauble not in the deck.

I am unsure if this belongs here, as I do not typically post on this thread. But, since it has been merged to be the only thread for Threshold, I will begin here until moved.

Many players have expressed their admiration for the new card Counterbalance, and how it seems made for Threshold, but I have seen nothing but speculation, and conjecture on it's actual application. For the past few weeks, I have tried using this card in several different decks, but they have all evolved toward Threshold.

It does not shore up any glaring weaknesses in the deck, nor does it add a new twist on a Legacy standard. What I have found, is it solidifies what the deck already does. That being the use of undercosted threats, and deck manipulation to put constant pressure on your opponent while disrupting any threats, or answers they attempt.

It is a tempo card which favors a deck not only able to effectively meet it's requirements, but one that take advantage of the tempo it gives. In a deck like Threshold, one that wins with virtual card advantage, that being card quality and applicability versus actual extra draws, the fact that is does this without costing any cards besides itself, and that the cards that enable it are already mainstays for the deck are what made this no only seem possible to me, but extemely attractive.

Obviously, this must be shown in practice. I have played more games than I had time for recently, and in the deck I have somewhat settled on, these are the results I have so far. My deck(list to follow) contains 17 one costed cards, and 19 two costed cards. In Legacy, the current trend is to utilized the most broken cards at this cost, as speed is the issue. Counterbalance in Threshold can take full advantage of this to create tempo swings in games where they may not normally be possible.

I will not bother to mention which matchups are good, bad, helped, or hindered by this. But below I have a list of the cards in the meta that are easily stopped by normal progression of cantrips in Threshold, with Counterbalance on the board.

Solidarity: High Tide, Brainstorm, Reset, Remand, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Opt, Peek, Impulse.

Goblins: To be honest, with the variety of casting costs, and Aether Vial, this card is less than useful against Goblins.

Threshold: Obviously a monster swing in the mirror.

Angel Stompy: Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Umezawa's Jitte, Disenchant, Soltari Priest, Silver Knight, Swords to Plowshares, Tithe

Deadguy: Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Confidant, Duress, Cursed Scroll, Swords to Plowshares, Nantuko Shade, Sinkhole

Burn: Every spell but Flamebreak, Browbeat, and Fireblast

Iggy Pop: Every spell but Tendrils of Agony and Ill-Gotten Gains (and LED before sideboarding)

Zoo: Well....all their spells are one or two casting cost, aren't they?

And my personal favorite.....Life from the Loam

With nineteen two costed spells, and a great deal of manipulation to place them when needed, this is the only deck I can think of that does not use Chalice of the Void, and yet can counter Life from the Loam almost every turn without losing a single card.

My current decklist is as follows:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgeling Dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
3 Portent
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Magma Jet

2 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:

4 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Winter Orb
3 Naturalize
2 Flametongue Kavu

I am certain that this deck is not optimallized. I have found that in using Counterbalance, that the Red version of Threshold is the most effective. Since in my opinion Counterbalance is a much better version of Meddling Mage, Swords alone was not worth it. The burn available to the Red version solidifies the more troublesome matchups versus certain Aggro decks that Counterbalance cannot address.

Magma Jet is key. While you can make educated guesses in stacking your deck against your opponent's play, Jet and Brainstorm actually allow you to counterspell, with an additional effect. Crypt allows you to stop LED recursion. And FTK gives you a third and fourth 4 costed spell in games where this is needed.

My unfamiliarity with playing with Threshold in general has caused this to take a while to compile, but in the above mentioned matchups, it can take a good match,(Solidarity) and make it a slaughter. And can take a difficult match, (Loam/Confinement/Slide) and make it favorable. Since the red version was the weakest against Combo and Control, I think it's burn for Aggro, combined with Counterbalance's help can be very good.

I think any of the 3 colors of Gro can be reworked a little to fit in Counter Balance. Black might need some added work because of Bob, but I would never cut him just to fit in CB.

I know this goes aganist everything that makes Gro the machine it is, but 1-2 copies of Sensei's Diving Top might need to be fit in some where. With the shuffling and deck tricks that Gro already has, Top could truly make CB a Chalice for anything up to and including a casting cost of 4. Some serious testing needs to be done, I'm currently trying to get 4 CBs and test.

That said I think the White verison is going to have a very easy time fitting in CB. It already has access to Meddling Mage, which can cut off the 0's and 5 pluses if needed.

@Parcher:I like the way your list looks, but I think Counterspell can be cut. I would test out Top in that slot and see how it works for you. I do think that is going to be totally awesome, or totally aweful. No in the middle.

Top was actually the first card I tried. The problem I had with it is it actually prohibits you from reaching Threshold. Also, the decks this one had the most problems with to begin with either run multiple disenchant effects, or Needles.

I tried White Thresh first, as I actually have all the cards for that, and was hoping. The problem expounds greatly in that version. Mage is awful against Aggro. Counterbalance is ineffective against some Aggro. Plow is the only removal. And you can't run Mental Note with Counterbalance effectively to speed up your clock.

It turns the deck from an Aggro/Control Tempo deck to a Control deck, which it cannot do in most cases. I think of the Red version as an inverse version of Sligh. Running disruption along with undercosted-for-their-power creatures, and burn to clear the way, or finish the game. When your creatures can protect themselves through size or untargetability, being able to shut down most removal through Counterbalance, and most larger creatures, or bombs from opponents with the remainder of your countermagic suite, I think it behoves you to play to this deck's strengths. Beating pure Aggro is a tough enough test. I have been unable to water down White Thresh's already mediocre pre-board game against it successfully with Counterbalance to include it.

In which I wholly agree that this card will either be breakable, or not used at all. I am simply taking longer to flesh out these ideas with a deck I am still learning the nuances of.

When I finally see Counterbalance going into gro it will be a two of, because gro cannot shape it's whole deck around for an enchantment. The card is a more of a HEY! look I drew it. Than I want to cast it turn two and pretend to play stasis. The gro players of Syracuse were discussing this awhile ago to be honest, I came to the conclusion that top would be bad. Unless you were also running Bob the builder and if so what are you going to cut for top AND counterbalance? This card will divide gro variants and gro players. Because it fits easily into white and not into the other two colors. But the problem with it is that you want to base your deck off it but you can't it's something you've got to roll with and scry/b-storm set up. All in all is counterbalance really worth the hassle? Is it going to lock out your opponent or gain enough virtual card advantage for it to be worth a slot?

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

When I finally see Counterbalance going into gro it will be a two of, because gro cannot shape it's whole deck around for an enchantment. The card is a more of a HEY! look I drew it. Than I want to cast it turn two and pretend to play stasis. The gro players of Syracuse were discussing this awhile ago to be honest, I came to the conclusion that top would be bad. Unless you were also running Bob the builder and if so what are you going to cut for top AND counterbalance? This card will divide gro variants and gro players. Because it fits easily into white and not into the other two colors. But the problem with it is that you want to base your deck off it but you can't it's something you've got to roll with and scry/b-storm set up. All in all is counterbalance really worth the hassle? Is it going to lock out your opponent or gain enough virtual card advantage for it to be worth a slot?

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In reality, its worse than a chalice set for 1 or 2, besides the fact it can be pitched to fow. At most its a good sb card for the miror match (or burn, but nobody plays that)

Worse for whom? A Chalice set at one or two is one of the best cards against Threshold. Counterbalance is non-symmetrical.

I can see it being a sideboard card, but you do not have to bulid your deck around it. The reason for it's possible inclusion in Threshold is that the deck is already built to use it. Top will not work, and Bob is awful with Counterbalance for two reasons. One, you will always take damage if stacking your deck to use Counterbalance. Two he throws off your math with Portent and Scry effects, epsecially because an aggro opponent will always know how much damage you are going to take.

The key I've found to using the card is based on probability. You use your stacking effects to place the costed spell of either the most likely play by your opponent, or the most dangerous card they could cast. Obviously you can use your few instant speed effects to alter this when able.

I am unsure yet whether or not it merits a slot in this deck. I'm merely stating the results I have had, and attempting to find out the results of others who may have tried it in this deck to determine this for myself.