[Deck] Goyf Sligh

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

I don't think you could ever have a Hybrid without it being more one than the other, Zoo plays 18-23 creatures and 8-10 burn spells, pretty standard. Goyf Sligh plays shit tons of burn and 12-16 creatures. With the addition of white you would HAVE to add the Pridemage, Nacatl, Helix, and StP (because these are the best options available and it would be ignorant not to).

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If STP was red, would GoyfSligh play it? I guess no: the life gain is quite important when you pack a lot of burn. Here's the list I'm playing:
// Lands
1 [P3] Forest (1)
2 [ARE] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Savannah
4 [A] Taiga
4 [A] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [FD] Magma Jet

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

It's 21 Lands, 20 Creatures and 19 Burn spells, So basically -1 Burn spells, +1 lands +3 Creature compared to whienot's list. That is because you don't have to run Null Rod or Krosan Grips anymore, thanks to Pridemage.

It's quite simple: Better creatures (the ability to beat for 3 or 4 on turn 2) at the exchange of manabase stability. You judge (taking a look at your meta) if the exchange is worth. For more stability you can also choose to run Rift Bolt or Incinerate over Helix and reduce the number of savannahs or plateaus. for basics.

I played two small local tournaments (7 and 12 people), together 7 rounds and score was 6:1 - only lost to BR Goblins (I had bad draw and made some mistakes :/ - and opponent is very experienced player :/).

So, what can I say after sooo many matches with this deck? :-)

1) PoP is great in MD
2) Fireblast is great in MD!
3) I played white only for Nacatl - I prefered Rift Bolt over Lightning Helix (CB) - that means I can play Magus of the Moon in SB!
4) I want to test Qasali Pridemage over Hooligans, but I'm little afraid of the white mana cost :/
5) 5 duals are enought (3 Taiga + 2 Plateau)
6) No Mogg Fanatic :-)

Report from the second tournament from one my opponent with UGw Thresh: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=2147

Isn't 21 too much land? Maybe you could cut a couple to fit in Fireblasts.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Isn't 21 too much land? Maybe you could cut a couple to fit in Fireblasts.

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I don't like to hurt the manabase that much. I'd add rift bolt before fireblast: it dodges CB well too, and does just 1 dmg less.

You're discounting the fact that Fireblast is a free instant... that's a huge advantage that makes it a much stronger finisher.

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Originally Posted by keys

You're discounting the fact that Fireblast is a free instant... that's a huge advantage that makes it a much stronger finisher.

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Exactly: it's a finisher. I do believe the deck doesn't need a finisher, it needs removal. If the opponent is @4 or less and is not playing counters then fireblast is a great card, but there are a lot of situations where fireblast is just dead. Here's a brief list:
- You're in land screw or the opponent plays some LD effects
- Your opponent is playing discard, and you don't want to lose 2 of your lands in response to *insert random discard spell here*
- You don't want to lose 2 lands in the first 2-3 turns of the games: it would hinder your tempo.
- 8 of your creatures are land-based so you severely decrease your attacking power.
- 3 of your lands are not mountains.
- No creature has an ass of 4, they all have 2-3 or 5+.

Seriously. if you don't consider counterbalance decks and combo decks, then what would you want fireblast against, over, say, rift bolt?
Goblins? Merfolks? Elves? Stax? Aggro Loam? The mirror? Dragon Stompy? Team America? Eva Green? Canadian Thresh?

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Exactly: it's a finisher. I do believe the deck doesn't need a finisher, it needs removal. If the opponent is @4 or less and is not playing counters then fireblast is a great card, but there are a lot of situations where fireblast is just dead. Here's a brief list:
- You're in land screw or the opponent plays some LD effects Ok if you're at 1 or no land, yes.
- Your opponent is playing discard, and you don't want to lose 2 of your lands in response to *insert random discard spell here* how is rift bolt supposed to be better in this scenario?
- You don't want to lose 2 lands in the first 2-3 turns of the games: it would hinder your tempo. right, that's why 16+ other burn spells are run along with it, so you can save Fireblast as the finisher.
- 8 of your creatures are land-based so you severely decrease your attacking power. huh?
- 3 of your lands are not mountains. You should only be playing one nonmountain, a single forest, if any.
- No creature has an ass of 4, they all have 2-3 or 5+. 9 times out of 10, Fireblast is not used as creature removal. Also, using what method is this obvervation made?

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Originally Posted by keys

Ok if you're at 1 or no land, yes.

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Or if one of your lands is a non-mountain.

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Originally Posted by keys

how is rift bolt supposed to be better in this scenario?

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Against discard, with an empty hand, you can just topdeck rift bolt and suspend/play it. If your topdeck is fireblast, the opponent can just play some discard (that he is likely to have if you are on an empty hand) and you're stuck with the decision or whether 'geddon yourself or not.

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Originally Posted by keys

right, that's why 16+ other burn spells are run along with it, so you can save Fireblast as the finisher.

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We also have Price of Progress as non-removal, and Price of Progress IS a finisher, often dealing 6+ damage. But what's the difference between fireblast and a Rift Bolt? are 2 lands worth the 1 more damage and the R saved? Fireblast is better only if the opponent is exactly at 4 or you don't have 1 spare mana (and the opponent doesn't have daze, otherwise you're screwed).

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Originally Posted by keys

huh?

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You know, Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl. You're going to have some 1/1s after a Fireblast.

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Originally Posted by keys

You should only be playing one nonmountain, a single forest, if any.

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You might be right. I like 1 savannah, though. I switched the second savannah for a bloodstained mire.

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Originally Posted by keys

9 times out of 10, Fireblast is not used as creature removal. Also, using what method is this obvervation made?

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Ass 1, 2 or 3 = Entire goblin deck, entire merfolk deck, entire elf deck, Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Tin Street Hooligan, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, Sower, Trinket, Manlands, Hate Bears (Meddling Mage, Gaddock), etc.
Ass 3 = Goose, Nacatl, Kird
Ass 5+ = Goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought

Ass 4 = Grunt, Werebear, and?

I'll accept some of your points.

Still, the reason I say Fireblast is a good finisher is because it's instant and if you're at, say, three land, you can play it plus PoP + Bolt EOT. This is a huge threat that means your opponent cannot dip below 10 life and be safe from instant death.

Even in the face of discard, I still think Fireblast is a 100x better topdeck than Rift Bolt. The extra 1 damage does matter and unless you've got 3 land and no other cards in hand, suspending Rift Bolt timewalks your opponent. I've never had a problem reducing the attack power of Nacatls/Apes though I've been playing FoD instead anyway.

The 4 toughness argument doesn't seem very relevant to me. Besides, what if you draw into 2 Lavamancers and you chump a 5/5 with one, or need to Lavamance/Jet and Blast a 6/6? I also forgot to mention how Fireblast is Lavamancer food.

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Originally Posted by keys

I'll accept some of your points.

Still, the reason I say Fireblast is a good finisher is because it's instant and if you're at, say, three land, you can play it plus PoP + Bolt EOT. This is a huge threat that means your opponent cannot dip below 10 life and be safe from instant death.

Even in the face of discard, I still think Fireblast is a 100x better topdeck than Rift Bolt. The extra 1 damage does matter and unless you've got 3 land and no other cards in hand, suspending Rift Bolt timewalks your opponent. I've never had a problem reducing the attack power of Nacatls/Apes though I've been playing FoD instead anyway.

The 4 toughness argument doesn't seem very relevant to me. Besides, what if you draw into 2 Lavamancers and you chump a 5/5 with one, or need to Lavamance/Jet and Blast a 6/6? I also forgot to mention how Fireblast is Lavamancer food.

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We probably take different approaches to the deck: fireblast is more balls to the walls, like Goyfsligh playstyle, where a 3dmg burn spell is more a zooish card.
I initially played 4, then went down to 3 and then 2 when hating seing multiples, then started to ask myself: "is this better or worse than a Helix/Incinerate/Rift Bolt?" every time I drew it. And most of the time it was on par or better to have a 3 dmg spell.

I tend to hold on to my burn until my opponent is tapped out and I think I can finish them. Also, I've just won too many games responding to a resolved Ad Nauseum with Fireblast while I'm tapped out (with and without a Pillar on the table).

Re: post #682, you might as well play the Teegs and Jittes main and use Plow instead of Jets/PoP, and voila... Zoo. Let's face it, if you're not playing Fireblast and mountains, you're not really playing Sligh, and GoyfSligh is really just Sligh plus Taigas, Goyfs, and Krosan Grip in the SB.

Pridemage seems to put this deck in an awkward position by requiring GW on turn two. It's obviously doable, but at what cost? I think if you're going to open yourself up to nonbasic hate and slow the game down for improved utility, Zoo might just do it better. It's possible that maindeck Shusher and/or Null Rod provide enough utility.

I think we should remember that Sligh is first and foremost about burn and quick efficient beats. Goyf and (possibly) Nacatl facilitate that strategy without diluting the primary color. I think the OP got it right:

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Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten

What is Goyf Sligh? Goyf Sligh is a traditional RG beats deck – little men and burn. The deck aims to play a critter on turn 1 and possibly turn 2, sneak in some combat damage, and then finish with burn spells to the dome.

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Originally Posted by keys

Re: post #682, you might as well play the Teegs and Jittes main and use Plow instead of Jets/PoP, and voila... Zoo. Let's face it, if you're not playing Fireblast and mountains, you're not really playing Sligh, and GoyfSligh is really just Sligh plus Taigas, Goyfs, and Krosan Grip in the SB.

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Or you can take out the Pridemage and Nacatl, add fireblast and voila... Goyfsligh. The deck is not really Goyfsligh nor Zoo. It's an hybrid. That's why I posted it in reply to Pulp_Fiction saying a hybrid is not possible. I'm just saying that it's possible, it just have to dismiss STP, cause it's too bad for a sligh deck.

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Originally Posted by keys

Pridemage seems to put this deck in an awkward position by requiring GW on turn two. It's obviously doable, but at what cost? I think if you're going to open yourself up to nonbasic hate and slow the game down for improved utility, Zoo might just do it better. It's possible that maindeck Shusher and/or Null Rod provide enough utility.

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But at what gain? Beating for 4 on turn 2? Count me in!
By maindecking Null Rod or Krosan Grip you get some versatility, some answer. But you weaken the deck's core: those cards are not Burn, not Creatures and not Lands. With this hybrid you get to have versatility, increase the creature's power, everything at the exchange of a less stable manabase:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

It's quite simple: Better creatures (the ability to beat for 3 or 4 on turn 2) at the exchange of manabase stability. You judge (taking a look at your meta) if the exchange is worth. For more stability you can also choose to run Rift Bolt or Incinerate over Helix and reduce the number of savannahs or plateaus for basics.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Or you can take out the Pridemage and Nacatl, add fireblast and voila... Goyfsligh. The deck is not really Goyfsligh nor Zoo. It's an hybrid. That's why I posted it in reply to Pulp_Fiction saying a hybrid is not possible. I'm just saying that it's possible, it just have to dismiss STP, cause it's too bad for a sligh deck.

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No, because the manabase is still taken from Zoo. Savannah? And I think when Pulp_Fiction says "possible" he means "viable". That isn't clear from just merging decklists.

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Originally Posted by keys

No, because the manabase is still taken from Zoo. Savannah? And I think when Pulp_Fiction says "possible" he means "viable". That isn't clear from just merging decklists.

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I admit it, I plain suck at making manabases. You probably can just remove savannahs and some number of plateaus for basics and fetches.

Also, if you're adding a color to a deck the manabase have to change, but that doesn't mean the strategy or the plan of the deck is going to change too.

There are a lot of decks that tried to merge efficient creatures and lots of burn with good success. And it's not like those decks are not viable. Here's some examples from Deckcheck that I found in a couple of minutes.

Those decks are splashing White in praticular for Wild Nacatl and for some SB card, but I bet most of those ones are going to MD Pridemage before Krosan Grip or Null Rod.
There are other decks that are playing RGb, just for the drawing power of confidant and maybe some sb card.

The reasoning is simple. We're splashing Green for the best beater, a good 1cc drop, and a good sb card. Sure, our manabase gets worse, bu we get much more powerful tools to work with.
Then, why not splash another color for even more powerful beaters? If your meta is not going to hate your manabase, then you're going to have just a better deck. I repeat, if your meta is not going to hate your nonbasics.

That deck under the "I" link looks way good.

Though I'd probably do -1 Lavamancer -1 Fireblast +2 Lightning Helix. And then that set of Lightning bolts could possibly be Rift Bolt. Then maybe -1 PoP for a land, but maybe with less Lavamancer/F.Blast and a set of Rift Bolts, not as much land is required.

Those 3 Shusher could even be Pridemage in certain metas.

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Originally Posted by Berzerked

And then that set of Lightning bolts could possibly be Rift Bolt.

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Hope you're kidding.

Lol, I meant Lightning Helix. Obviously no Bolt would be retarded.

Made top 8 out of 30 tonight. I played the same list posted earlier with a slightly different sideboard (-S. Vortex + P. Pillar + T. Crypt)

I got knocked out by another Goyf Sligh deck. Turns out having (and drawing) 6 dead cards main hurts this match-up. But, I did combo out against Affinity turn 2 both games. Null Rod :eek:

So i go play a land with affinity, and Whienot plays turn two NullRod. GG!

Game two i go drop a Thopter and land, Whienot goes NullRod. GG!

A turn later i draw Spell Snare. Sad times for Affinity.

Are you still happy with Hellspark? I've played with it in two tournaments now and haven't been that impressed. They felt slow, and most of the time I would've rather just had another burn spell.

My deck is very similar to yours, except I play 3/3 Shusher/Null Rod maindeck, keeping the Grips in the SB, and I don't play Fanatic.