[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

FT also implies a lot of reasoning on every play you make. TES is simpler to play. (that is not a downside at all). From the question you asked, I see you're not that familiar with the format and with those decks.
Also, FT builds are quite different from meta to meat, where TES has a solid decklist with a couple customizable slots.

If you have a deck to chose between both, start with TES, and after you can pilot it well, try to pick FT up and see with witch one you're more confortable.
TES is definetly a better place to start with.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

FT also implies a lot of reasoning on every play you make. TES is simpler to play. (that is not a downside at all). From the question you asked, I see you're not that familiar with the format and with those decks.
Also, FT builds are quite different from meta to meat, where TES has a solid decklist with a couple customizable slots.

If you have a deck to chose between both, start with TES, and after you can pilot it well, try to pick FT up and see with witch one you're more confortable.
TES is definetly a better place to start with.

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I just haven't played TES or FT in a long ass time. I think the last time I did either was about 9 months ago. I used to play Iggy Pop, which gave me an idea of how to play FT(still very different). And it took me 3 months to play TES well.

It's just AN is really tempting to flip into your own doom. I usually stopped when I saw (in TES) LED LED BW/IT or a lot of mana and a kill. Basically it was used as a way to get cards in my hand that'd make me win. Amidoinitrite?

Hi,
I'm thinking about giving a try to this deck. Should I begin with a given list or test Ad Nauseam as many of you are doing?
Do you expect many changes in the archtype and/or deck? Apart from AN, is Shards providing more bombs?

I've gotten around to doing some online testing. I've played about 40-60 games so far. Ad Nauseum is very hyped up right now, yes, it's a bomb. Usually wins you games, but don't be mislead by it.

For reference here's the list I'm using:

Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ad Nauseum
3 Ponder
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:3 Vexing Shusher

The average mana cost of the deck is 1.53 keep this in mind, it's slightly more than a bargain life loss. However, just as powerful. Yesterday in one game I drew 24 cards. A few games later...I drew 4. I won both games, but you need to keep in mind the card doesn't read I win the game. You have to work for it.

Dave - Try Ad Nauseum lists, much easier to pilot, a lot less thinking.

So, Bryant, you've been playing 4 AdN? Is it really something you want to see that much of?

It strikes me that Mystical tutor might fit into these lists pretty well, in the place of 3 AdN, have you given that a try? I know it's not as necessary as in FT lists, but it'll power up brainstorm a little bit, fetch chant, and let you cut a few higher CC cards so you don't need to run as many.

And also the mystical tutors let you fetch for an AdN, sac a LED during the upkeep and play the AdN during your draw phase... Wich is a great trick

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Originally Posted by Zinch

And also the mystical tutors let you fetch for an AdN, sac a LED during the upkeep and play the AdN during your draw phase... Wich is a great trick

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One little issue with this, Mystical Tutor is awful. The only reason that decks like FT can even play it are that the card disadvantage doesn't effect them as much since they run 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder and 4 Sensei's divining top. Which also allows them to abuse it a lot more.

Also Bryant, I still think 3 AdN and 4 Chrome Mox's are the right numbers, that alone brings the decks A.C.C. down from 1.25 (your math was a little off) to 1.17 and like I said you WANT to hit chrome Mox's off of AdN since its pretty common to have 0 mana in pool after an AdN.

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Originally Posted by Zinch

And also the mystical tutors let you fetch for an AdN, sac a LED during the upkeep and play the AdN during your draw phase... Wich is a great trick

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Unless I'm mistaken, you take manaburn after your upkeep is over.

@MT: I realize that it's card disadvantage (so are chrome mox and SSG and really dark rit and lotus petal, but that's beside the point), but why is it awful? I realize that FT can abuse it better because of the more complete cantrip suite, but that's not to sat TES can't. In place of 3 ADN, or whatever, it could just snag key spells. So other than card disadvantage, why is it bad?

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Unless I'm mistaken, you take manaburn after your upkeep is over.

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You don't.
The mana pool empties after every phase not after every step.

Yeah Klaus is right you have the mana until the end of the draw step so you can draw for turn and then play AdN.

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Originally Posted by klaus

You don't.
The mana pool empties after every phase not after every step.

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Huh, I really thought you took burn at the end of every step too. Oh well, shows how much I know. (also opens up lots of broken plays.)

Well, even more reason for MT then.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Unless I'm mistaken, you take manaburn after your upkeep is over.

@MT: I realize that it's card disadvantage (so are chrome mox and SSG and really dark rit and lotus petal, but that's beside the point), but why is it awful? I realize that FT can abuse it better because of the more complete cantrip suite, but that's not to sat TES can't. In place of 3 ADN, or whatever, it could just snag key spells. So other than card disadvantage, why is it bad?

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TES plays card disadvantage cards in order to win the game faster. Mystical Tutor takes time or even more card disadvantage to just snag a card. Too much card disadvantage is bad. A little is fine, however too much can hurt the deck. We either trade speed for Mystical or just do without it. Which is fine by me, because the card is awful. Yes, I understand, Mystical gets Ad Nauseum. Everyone has noticed that it's an instant now. However, the deck doesn't rely on casting Ad Nauseum. It has other paths to victory. Making it a much more versatile and resiliant deck. I've had this Mystical Tutor discussion way too many times now. It also is bad in the idea that it makes people want to play silver bullets maindeck. You never want to open a bullet or tutor target. Not to mention it doesn't work with the Ill-Gotten Gains loop, although less relevant now with Ad Nauseum. I personally think the card is terrible and won't ever play it, much like intuition.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

TES plays card disadvantage cards in order to win the game faster. Mystical Tutor takes time or even more card disadvantage to just snag a card. Too much card disadvantage is bad. A little is fine, however too much can hurt the deck. We either trade speed for Mystical or just do without it. Which is fine by me, because the card is awful. Yes, I understand, Mystical gets Ad Nauseum. Everyone has noticed that it's an instant now. However, the deck doesn't rely on casting Ad Nauseum. It has other paths to victory. Making it a much more versatile and resiliant deck. I've had this Mystical Tutor discussion way too many times now. It also is bad in the idea that it makes people want to play silver bullets maindeck. You never want to open a bullet or tutor target. Not to mention it doesn't work with the Ill-Gotten Gains loop, although less relevant now with Ad Nauseum. I personally think the card is terrible and won't ever play it, much like intuition.

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I know it had been talked about before (as has every other card ever) but I thought that might have changed with the advent of AdN. You don't have to run silver bullets, I know that doesn't work in a deck like this. It's just an effective way to significantly lower the CC of the deck (-12 for 3 MT) and fetch other things when you need them (chant, IT if you have plenty of mana, etc.). It seems like it warrants another shot. If you don't want to get into the discussion again, that's fine, let this be the end of it.

On topic: running thoughtseize? With AdN it seems like the lifeloss is very relevant.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I know it had been talked about before (as has every other card ever) but I thought that might have changed with the advent of AdN. You don't have to run silver bullets, I know that doesn't work in a deck like this. It's just an effective way to significantly lower the CC of the deck (-12 for 3 MT) and fetch other things when you need them (chant, IT if you have plenty of mana, etc.). It seems like it warrants another shot. If you don't want to get into the discussion again, that's fine, let this be the end of it.

On topic: running thoughtseize? With AdN it seems like the lifeloss is very relevant.

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I'm looking for something that's protection, but I want it to be able to deal with Teeg/Counterbalance and hate. Is there anything in mind?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I'm looking for something that's protection, but I want it to be able to deal with Teeg/Counterbalance and hate. Is there anything in mind?

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Bounce spell?


EDIT: ...or thoughtseize

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Bounce spell?


EDIT: ...or thoughtseize

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We need a non thoughtseize card because the Life loss is actually relevant with AdN

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Originally Posted by J.V.

We need a non thoughtseize card because the Life loss is actually relevant with AdN

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Well... then you will be running a bounce spell.

Um...Duress?

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Originally Posted by Di

Um...Duress?

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Aren't you a guy that runs Gaddock Teeg?

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Originally Posted by Di

Um...Duress?

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Duress doesn't hit Teeg... but you know that :tongue: