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I forgot to take out my own personal notes. After a tournament, I usually go through each card and rate it and see if it still belongs in my decks. Hoofprints was amazing at that tournament but I have elspeth now which is a million times better.Quote:
Originally Posted by aldaryn
@Klaus: Is there any particular reason you've found to run vindicate over Oblivion ring? I know being able to blow up lands is nice, as it the fact that vindicate can't be disenchanted, but it's WAY easier to cast and almost as versatile.
EE @ 3 kills Oblivion Ring and the threat you wanted to get rid of is back killing you. Vindicate gets rid of the problem and it only comes back with recursion.
Game 2, regardless of the Landstill build, they're going to board Krosan Grips in against you. That makes Oblivion Ring suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Ok so I haven't gotten to test this matchup yet, but how goes the matchup with canadian thrash for wish based versions?
Also has anyone gotten to test the Team America matchup? If so how did you do and what r ur conclusions?
Alright this matchup is tough. If they are able to wreck you with LD or at least keep you on about 3 mana, they'll win.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Especially if they're on the play it is hard to establish your manabase with fetchies. So I think this MU is all about the LD.
Make sure that you board in your Relics. Those are really important.
Canadian Threshhold, I assume, will be a little easier since they don't have as much manadenial and no Tombstalker. An early Relic can weaken the opponent reasonably as well.
TA is about 55-45 for us while Canadian Threshhold should be a 60-40.
2 more reasons to run the 3-1 Relic-Crypt split (over 4-0):Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
- you can tutor for Crypt via Tolaria West
- you have more outs to a resolved Needle on Relic
I haven't tested this MU a lot. But I really think it is 65-35 in TA's favor preboard and 55-45 postboard. Getting to 4 mana AND succesfully cast a spell is really tough.Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMaster
If we don't find 2 early STPs it's gg mostly.
@klaus:
I can't agree that Vindicate > Wish is a "natural evolution", I think that it depends to the matagame, wich one is superior.
Wish was added because of his ability to shut down recurrsion by wishing Extirpate, wich is quite rellevant in mus like Loam [Aggro Loam, CAL, Eternal Garden], Giftstill, ITF and Survival/Rock.
Besides Extirpate is much better than Relic vs. u-based control.
@Fred:
I have to agree with Klaus, TA is about 65% in their favor.
The Canadian Thresh mu seems quite even to me, it seems that you undersemite the burnspells, they're a pita without Wish.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdez
+ Caught in the act...
Hach, I was just being in the mood to prove my points via exaggeration :laugh: and simplification :wink:
Anyway, I'd strongly suggest Vindicate>Wish in metas without or hardly any Loam.dec.
I'm aware that Wish also serves the purpose to at least be able to win G1s against ANY archetype. I'm just very skeptical of its gain(outs)VS.pain(slowness+SB limitations) relation when compared to Vindicate.
It seems like Vindicate is almost strictly better than O. Ring if you are running black anyway. You have STP to deal with recurring creatures, and Vindicate is more versatile, and usually more of a permanent answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Has anyone been playing Moat in their builds? In my testing 2-3 Moat is helps a lot of matchups. If you are playing Elspeth then all of your creatures are fine, and if not you have Eternal Dragon to win with. It has made matches like Dreadstill and Canadian Thresh even more in my favor, and it allows you to ignore Goyf and focus purely on TS in the TA matchup.
Just a few thoughts.
Moat seems tempting at first glance. So I did a mini survey just for you. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
Here is a draft of creature-based archetpyes from deckcheck.net (A-G).
>>HumilityVS.Moat.<<
Affinity----------Humility wins (Ornitopter, Hoverguard)
Aggro Loam--Moat wins (with a black splash for Confidant I'd consider it a tie)
Aluren ----------Humility wins.
Angel Stompy-----Humility wins
Berserk Stompy---Moat wins
Bomberman-------Humility wins___OK. not so relevant
Boros Deck Wins-----Moat wins
Cephalid Breakfast----Humility wins
CounterSliver-----------Humility wins (Winged Sliver)
Deadguy Ale------------Humility wins (Confidant, Specter, Stalker)
Death & Taxes---------Humility wins. (Serra Av., S. Cloaker, Mangara)
Dragon Stompy--------Humility wins (Pitdragon, Slogger,) ...almost tied.
Dreaded Fish----------Tie. (ConfidantVS.no fliers)
Dreadstill---------------Moat wins.
Elves!--------------------Moat wins (almost tie due to that Naturalize Elve)
Enchantress-----------Humility wins
Eternal Garden-------Moat wins__________also not relevant.
Faerie Stompy--------Humility wins big time
Faeries-----------------Humility wins_______not too relevant either.
Fish---------------------Dark Confidant, Avenger = Humility wins
Goblins----------------Moat wins
Sofar it's 13-7 in Humilitie's favor (almost twice as good).
Also note that in some cases in which Moat won it did so not too impressively.
-
Peace.
If a deck runs Confidant but no answers to Moat, which most of the decks don't, then I would still consider Moat superior. This changes with Krosan Grip G2, but still, Humility also dies to Grip.
I think Moat is only better when you are staring down lethal damage next turn and you rip Humility that could have been a Moat and would have saved you.
Moat does have good synergy with Elspeth, but is it a better synergy than Humility and Elspeth? In my testing, I don't think so.
If you have Moat on the board and they have no answer, but still are able to remove your only outs in the form of Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, and Elspeth through Swords, Yixid Jailer, Needle, Relic, Crypt... What do you do then? As my teammate would say, "Weep openly."
The only situation I can think of that moat would surpass humility is if the suicide green deck I believe called eva green comes are you with their "1/1" creature then pumps it a bagillion times and finishes it off with a beserk. That said I can't see where moat would EVER replace humility. The ability to not only take away the text of creatures, but also take away their power level and replace it with a 1/1 for x mana, which anything more then one is overcosted obv. Moat is strictly worse then the effects that humility brings to the table.
The key to humility is that it turns utility creatures and win conditions into scrap. Where moat turns win conditions that don't have flying into scrap.
I think in the 4-500 games i've played with landstill variants I remember losing one relevant game with humility in play. And that ratio says it all for me.
P.S. The match I lost was to suic black after missing ee, swords, and them ripping both my lands out of hand via well timed first turn ritual, thoughtseize, hymn.
Needless to say I was at like four and I dropped humility later that game and I rip land land land land like a champ. And none of those lands were mishra;s :(
Hey guys,
I wanted to type up a tournament report for The Mana Leak Open where I played Landstill and it piloted fairly well. First my list, then the tournament report.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
I was expecting lots of combo and dreadstill and decks that beat those decks (thresh, dragonstompy, and team america.) I said to myself the day before the tournament if I play blue all day I'll make top 8. I played blue once and won that round.
Round 1: UGB Dreadstill 2-0
Game 1: We draw go for a while until I play EE at 1 as a preventative measure since I figured he might be playing dreadstill, I was lucky enough to guess right. I play standstill and proceed to draw all my relevant threats of FoF and Elspeth. The game ends quickly with him not playing anything but counterbalance which got gripped.
Board: +1 Krosan Grip -1 Standstill
Game 2: I play a turn 1 EE @ 1. He plays an EE @ 1 to kill my EE sorry :-(. I draw the 7th land off the top to play Eternal Dragon and he draws the wasteland a turn too late to stop him from coming into play. At the end of the game he shows me his next card was krosan grip (and his hand dreadnaught and trickbind) to get rid of my EE @ 1.
Round 2: DJ Dragonstompy (My teammate) 0-2
Game 1: I keeps a slow hand and I get Eternal Dragon online to fetch basic plains. I drop Humility turn 4 and proceed to win the game easily.
Board: +3 Blue Elemental Blasts -1 Decrees -2 Krosan Grip (I can't cast grip under a moon effect)
Game 2: He locks me under moon effect after moon effect. I can't draw a blue source with a hand full of 7 blue cards Standstill x 2, Fact or Fiction, Blue Elemental Blast...
Game 3: I mull to 4 with no lands but I have Force, Counterspell, Blue Elemental Blast, Swords. I keep. He proceeds to have triple moon effect starting from turn 3 to turn 5. I draw a fetchland the turn after he finally lands a moon effect.
Round 3: Matt Abold Survival 2-0
Game 1: He plays turn 1 Quirion Ranger. I have no idea what he's playing at that point. He plays a Tarmogoyf. He plays thoughtseize and sees Elspeth, Elspeth, FoF, Grip, Lands and I'm at four land, he takes the FoF. I stabilize at 3 life with Elspeth and a well timed wrath. I proceed to win.
Board: +1 Grip +3 Relic +2 Ajani (fearing needle on all my win conditions) -1 Decree -1 Elspeth -1 Tundra -2 Counterspell
Game 2: Turn 1 Quirion Ranger. He plays Survival turn 3 and is stuck at 2 lands. I grip his Survival on my third turn and waste his white source a few turns later. At one point I had Ajani and Elspeth on the board with a Standstill.
Round 4: Jesse Hatfield Templar Goblins 0-2
Game 1: I have triple swords and a standstill in my opening hand. He plays vial which I EE away a turn later. He kept tapping down my mishra's with port and I lose like I figured I would. I attack 3 times with a factory before it gets wasted. He thoughtseized my Elspeth if I remember correctly. No other win conditions to my name.
Board: +3 Blue Elemental Blast +2 Ajani -1 Wrath -1 Tundra -2 Krosan Grip -1 Decree
Game 2: I force his turn 1 Aether Vial and he doesn't have the gas. I get to turn 4 and drop Ajani. I gain a lot of life and put a 23/23 token into play after a decree for 2 tokens. His turn goes Siege-Gang Commander. He shots both my 1/1s on his turn and Warren Wierding my 23/23 when I had a factory on the board, but I might have been tapped out (savage misplay!) We go draw go for about a million turns and he beats me when I can't find another out. He played all of his Siege-Gang Commanders in our game 2. I merely drew a lot of land and counters but little business.
Round 5: Rich Meyst Elf Storm 2-0
Game 1: I felt bad because he plays forest llanowar elves and I say "Elf Ball?" He smiles. Since I knew what he was playing I slow played my hand with force, ee, standstill, swords, and humility. I force a glimpse. Play Humility. He tries to go into attack mode. My turn I kill his team with a 6 for 1 with EE @ 1. He scoops.
Board: +3 Meddling Mage -2 Krosan Grip -1 Decree
Game 2: I force his turn 2 Glimpse which he said later would have won it for him. I play a turn 2 meddling mage on heritage druid and a few turns later EE @ 1 for a huge advantage. I also forced a Regal Force at some point with 6 Elves on the field.
All in all, I beat the decks I should have beaten and lost to the decks I beat in testing. Imagine that. I went 10-0 in DS testing over the weekend. And proceed to lose horribly to it. Not the best tournament report, I do like sharing my deck and my experience with the people not their. I think all in all I made a good meta choice since all the decks I expected where at the tournament in force. I do wish I played the UWb version with 3 Vindicates main board, but I only own two of them at the moment.
Card of the tournament: Elspeth. Hands down. At one point I got laughed at for playing Elspeth, which I proceeded to win that game on her back.
"Card of the tournament: Elspeth. Hands down. At one point I got laughed at for playing Elspeth, which I proceeded to win that game on her back."Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
thats just gold dude. I love how good elspeth is in the d stompy matchup, blockin them freakin sofi'd simian spirit guides all day long :)
@rockout:
Here are some thoughts regarding you SB plans:
--Round 3-- Unless the Survival player splashed red for Magus of the moon, boarding out Basic Island (instead of Tundra) would have been the better choice.
--Round 1--
Quote: "Game 2: I play a turn 1 EE @ 1. He plays an EE @ 1 to kill my EE"
->He had to play it at 0 to be able to kill yours :)
--Round 4-- Jesse with Goblins - boarding out Wrath seems horrible.
--
Also, did you like those 3 Wastelands? I can't seem to find a Crucible which would make sense reg. your plan C (mana denial via WL).
You should have boarded differently against Goblins. Cards you should be definitely be boarding out are an 1-2 Elspeth, 1 Force of Will, and maybe the Krosan Grips. I would like to defend that boarding out a Wrath of God is wrong here because it makes you reliant on Humility and that boarding out a Land is especially wrong when you're facing a deck with 4 Wastelands and 4 Rishadan Ports. I think how you should have boarded isQuote:
Originally Posted by rockout
-2 Elspeth
-1 Force of Will (Card disadvantage and it cripples the hands you keep after your first mulligan)
-2 Krosan Grip
+3 BEB
+2 Ajani
If you want, you can also board out 2 FoWs instead of one and keep a Krosan Grip in to handle AEther Vial.
And how you should be approaching this match up is keep hands that can handle early threats like Lackey and Vial, so EE is good here obviously. From there, you proceed to stall to Turn 4 and then you either keep the board clean and cast BEB effects and other counters to keep your opponent in check, or you drop a Humility and just end the game. If you don't draw Humility and you cast a WoG instead, aggressively hard cast DoJ when you hit 8 mana or you use Ajani's Avater ability.
You should have even more assurance of this because Templar Goblins doesnt run Krosan Grips. If you're facing a RGB build, board out the Humilities instead of Elspeth.
Your perception and general plan of the Vial Goblins match up is actually quite optimal, but it's the boarding I have a problem with.
Against Dreadstill, I wouldn't board out a Standstill: you play better under Standstill than Dreadstill does. What you should board out in this match up are both copies of Wrath of God and 1-2 Swords to Plowshares for the 3rd Krosan Grip and 1-2 Runed Haloes. Feel free to cut any non-blue card for the 3rd Halo. If the Dreadstill player is playing Green, he's bound to board Grips against you as well. Over flow your board with Enchantments that protect you from Dreadnought, opposing Factories, and Tarmogoyfs so that Humility doesn't look like the total suck after your opponent Grips it EOT. Having Runed Halos in addition to Humility on the board is awesome.
Against Dragon Stompy, you should be boarding in Runed Halos. Runed Halo is awesome against Dragon Stompy and not boarding it in is probably half the reason why you lost that match up. Also, getting 2 Basic Plains on the board should be your priority anyways so you can cast WoGs, Humilities and Elspeth. Also, Runed Halo gets around Chalice for 1. Also, with Grips, you can float Green mana obv. Also, you're boarding in BEBs which should give you even more of an incentive to keep Grips in, but Runed Halos will do just fine. For now, I'd say board the following;
-2 Fact or Fiction/Krosan Grip
-1 Counterspell
-2 Wrath of God
-1 Swords to Plowshares/DoJ/Elspeth
+3 BEB
+3 Runed Halo
Also, playing that build of Landstill requires a lot of post-board experience. If you ask Geoff Smelski/Konsultant, he will tell you that all the games other decks steal from him are pre-board; post-board he almost always ends up winning because his post-board skills are amazing.
Also, the only reason why this deck ever does well is because the Sideboard is good with the Maindeck. You love the Sideboard of this deck because it's how you beat Combo, Ichorid, Aggro Loam, and other really sticky match ups.
The TA vs. Landstill painring differs a lot with one or other version. I was tensting in a version with 4 Vindicate and TA was very easy to beat beacuse we have too many answers for his 8-10 creatures. I also played 4 Stp, 2-3 Wrath (testing the slot) and 3 Engineered Explosives.
LOL: "painring" :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by DuKeLiO
And yes, Vindicate does make the TA MU easier.