[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by CUB3X

After looking at the storm piles I'm notincing typically you have you already have roughly 5 spells played before you make a pile since the majority of piles storm for 4-6. Can someone give me a basic rundown of what would go on before making a DD pile. Thanks

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You will usually be playing Mystical on upkeep, mana spells, mana artifacts, and chants before you DD into a pile. Remember that with DD, you can choose to go off later rather than sooner. Obviously it depends on matchup, but usually you can afford to wait since you only need at least 2 life. Against aggro, you can use the IGG piles that require extra cards in hand. Against control, you can wait and sculpt your hand so you have more spells to play and fight through counters (and subsequently build up storm). Another thing - if you have extra mana, replace the petal in your pile with another top (assuming you already have one), and you can trade 1 mana for 1 storm.

Also, you have to remember how you're counting. I know you're just looking at the DD piles page and seeing the descriptions that say "storms for 4-6 + tendrils". There are always 5 spells in the pile, meaning your storm will be at LEAST 6 (because 5 cards in pile + casting Doomsday). This doesn't include all the stuff I've mentioned before, like casting a petal, chant, and two rituals before going off.

I have got to say these last two pages have been interesting to follow. People disagreeing is how we get debates going.

Personally i have played DDANT for about two months now and gradually learning things. ive also played against regular ANT in that time and the main difference i run into playing against regular ant is that besides the 6-7chants they also pack duress which often tilts the match in their favor as they are essentially packing 10-11 disruption pieces compaired to my 6-7. and they get a peek at your hand seeing how much disruption you have on hand and how fast they can expect to see you combo off.

Could be my own inexperience though but i have yet to win a match against regular ANT <playing tops of their own>. How are you suposed to go about this match, am i missing something obvious or does regular ant simply have a edge in the mirror?

The regular ant plays as far as I know 4 chant and 4 duress. Sometimes it plays 2 top aswell.

Where we play 6-7 chants and 4 tops. Which makes it easier for us to find missing pieces and protection. Post board we run an additional 3xantid swarm that must be answered by them else we are free to combo any time.

I think it should be in favor of the DDANT player. Unless its keeping a non chant hand or the ANT player has the T1 kill.

False, Traditional ANT will win a match against DD Nauseam usually all the time. Its faster and has more disruption.

Unless you are winning every die and always going off turn 1 on the play, speed is irrelevant in the tendrils mirror. The match is usually won by whomever draws the most amount of disruption. Postboard, these matches are a tossup usually won by whomever was lucky enough to draw Xantid Swarm + Orim's Chant/Silence to buy the turn that Swarm needs to start attacking.

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Originally Posted by Nemavera

Carpet of Flowers is really awesome against blue (especially Tempo-Decks) cause it crushes their mana-denial plan und you can simply set up your game plan by out-controlling them with Chants, Top and DD. At the moment I'm testing it in the SB Xantid Swarm slot, due to all my opponent keeping creature removal against me; it's usually a non-wasteable land that provides whichever mana you need; I really love that card.

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Thanks for the answer. :wink:
How many copies do you use?
I'm thinking to use it if the number of tempo decks at high tables is more than 10-15% of the field.

And typically DDless ANT is a turn faster then DD versions which is why DDless builds usually will win the mirror

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Originally Posted by CUB3X

And typically DDless ANT is a turn faster then DD versions which is why DDless builds usually will win the mirror

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I can't tell if you're trolling or just high. Speed does not win the ANT mirror.

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Originally Posted by emidln

I can't tell if you're trolling or just high. Speed does not win the ANT mirror.

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Word. Stability and disruption wins the mirror.

Play some T1 CUB3X. There are a ton of Menendian articles on Storm Combo mirrors.

sorry, i didn't mean its just speed, just that its a factor, and ugh type 1. ya i would play if i had 10,000 dollars to spend on magic lol

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Originally Posted by CUB3X

sorry, i didn't mean its just speed, just that its a factor, and ugh type 1. ya i would play if i had 10,000 dollars to spend on magic lol

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Aren't there any 15 card proxy Vintage tournaments in your area? Other than that, money is a big issue. It's a shame.

No unfortuantely. My area is almost all standard. Legacy didn't even pick up until this past summer and even then it was mostly scrubs. Finally shaping up to good decks atleast, not necessarily good people. I have some very funny stories from my legacy meta experiences. i played 43 lands before tendrils and my opponent didn't know what exploration was. and then worst was when i was playing my friends burn deck. played a mirror match and my opponent didn't know what magma jet was...i wanted to just get up and leave the store lol

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Originally Posted by emidln

Statistically, you are as likely to be able to combo with Doomsday on turn 2 as you are with Infernal Tutor (assuming you played the same number of them). The cheaper mana cost of Doomsday 4-6 on turn 2 is comparable with Infernal Tutor's 7-8 mana when you factor in the additional cantrips necessary for Doomsday to work. If you count pass the turn piles, you are a lot more likely to combo with Doomsday on turn 1 or 2 than Infernal Tutor.

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Doomsday win on turn 2 is actually harder to play than Ad Nauseam win on turn two. You need Two sorts of colored mana B and U, and you need extra cards in hand or Top in play. To win with Doomsday on turn two you need to play a Top turn one, then you can´t do anyting constructive until turn two, but on turn two you need every colored mana you can produce and thus the chances of going of on turn two is quite low. With an Ad Nauseam you can start of the first turn by doing something constructive as playing a Ponder or mystical that gives you something useful turn two, instead of just wasting one mana on nothing turn one, and thus it is statistically easier to do a turn two win with Ad Nauseam, also Ad Nauseam win only takes black mana which is easier to produce than blue and black. To make an Protected Ad Nauseam win you need B and W mana whereas protected Doomsday require B, W and U. I think it is quite clear that the Ad Nauseam turn two win is bound to happen more often.

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Originally Posted by emidln

Have you ever actually lost a match to Enchantress? I don't know that I have ever done that playing anything derived from FT and I've been playing the deck for a long time. That deck is glacially slow and has...6 relevant cards, all of which can be bounced or removed unless they have 2 copies of a 4-of in play to protect them.

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Ok losing against enchantress was stretching it but the other matchups being worse still applies and most of them are being quite common, and to answer your question - Yes :rolleyes: he got solitary confinment out and then got the shroud enchantment, next game I mulled to 5 and kept a so so hand and he got the nutz hand with a shitload of sidboarded cards.

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Originally Posted by emidln

Trying to blindly go off turn 2 in the ANT mirror is a good way to Hymn/Mind Twist yourself at the cost of W for the opponent. Doing it against a deck that can not only have 6-7 chants, but also filter Mysticals into Chants with SDT is asking to lose.

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The good thing is that you played your top the first turn and thus you are out of mana and haven’t done anything constructive on your first turn :-P. No seriously, when did I say that I would go off unprotected turn two, are you assuming that I am a poor player or what? I’ll get deeper into this later on.

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Originally Posted by emidln

The last time I checked, the defense to Aluren was Mystical->KGrip and laugh at them when they can't deal with SDT hiding your KGrip. You have forever and a day to win that matchup.

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This takes a total of 4 Mana on the same turn, one being blue, one being green to pull off, try to do that by turn 3 without emptying your hand (But yeah, the tricks you can do with top is actually great).

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Originally Posted by emidln

Unless you are winning every die and always going off turn 1 on the play, speed is irrelevant in the tendrils mirror. The match is usually won by whomever draws the most amount of disruption. Postboard, these matches are a tossup usually won by whomever was lucky enough to draw Xantid Swarm + Orim's Chant/Silence to buy the turn that Swarm needs to start attacking.

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I don’t agree here, yes the mirror matches may drag on but that is just in time thinking what the opponent has and when he can go off, often the mirror just last a couple of turns before either one of you get a protected win. And yeah, you go ahead and board in the Xantid swarms, what are you siding out? One KGrip and…. Oh that’s the only card that was irrelevant, all the other cards sided out just makes your decks less disruptive (Cants) or slower, you go ahead with that plan and I’ll just make something constructive the turn you play the swarms, like playing a spell that does something the turn it is played.

Here’s the problem I have with your strategy, you now have a total of 8 cards that do nothing the turn they comes into play, you can argue that speed is irrelevant but I’ll gain one turn every time you play one of those spells when you do nothing. Speed might be irrelevant to you, but giving the opponents free turns can’t be good. But then again it seems that we just disagree on this point.

On The Ponder VS Top discussion
First turn You play Top and do nothing – you have now seen 7 Cards
My first turn playing Ponder – I have now seen 10 – 11 Cards and drawn one more card than you. You just gave away a turn doing nothing, next turn you have to spend another mana to do anything constructive with the top, thus you have one less mana on the second turn and then you can’t go of since you can’t protect your win. If I played a Ponder the first turn I have two mana available and thus it is easier to go off with a protected win since I can both generate B and W mana. This means that DDANT is not putting up any pressure until turn 3 since it can’t risk going of without protection, whereas the ANT deck is putting up pressure earlier. This example is assuming we both drew lands or had lands on the opening hand. If you play Top first turn and don’t have a land on your opening hand you have to chance and top in your upkeep to get another land or you’re one land behind thus buying the ANT player another turn, this won’t occur with Ponder. And the biggest reason I hate playing Top; (although I use it as a two off in the regular ANT list) using top revealing nothing but shit on top (like 3 useless lands or something) and not having a shuffling effect, with Ponder I just shuffle away the bad draws and proceed to do something relevant, with top I just have to live with the 3 bad draws.

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Originally Posted by Wave

To win with Doomsday on turn two you need to play a Top turn one.

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Everything else you say after this is now wrong. See what they're saying about learning how to play the card first before criticizing it?

I may be wrong, but looks like people are discussing Top and Ponder with a single scenario: to win quickly.
This is not what the deck wants. You do not want to try to win, cast AN or another engine and meet a counter, etc.
You want to be sure to win, it does not matter the turn (obv. 2nd turn win is cooler than 9th turn...)
If your opening hand has business, maybe you can go for it, but if not, what?
Are you going to risk almost or your resources? You can recover, but this works like a sniper: one shot, one kill.
As I said, I may be wrong, but there's some confusion with these two cards. You can win quickly, but if not, you need something helpful midgame and so on.
I wouldn't focus on ending the game as soon as possible, but in winning inevitably.

It's just an opinion...

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Everything else you say after this is now wrong. See what they're saying about learning how to play the card first before criticizing it?

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The ways of winning on turn two without top is unlikley to happen, they are possible, but unlikley since the commitment of each one is to much. You cannot deny that it is easier and less comitting to win with Ad Nauseam or you would have cut the card entirely already. So what I wrote still applies.

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

I may be wrong, but looks like people are discussing Top and Ponder with a single scenario: to win quickly.
This is not what the deck wants. You do not want to try to win, cast AN or another engine and meet a counter, etc

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The fast win discussion has been about the combo matchup where speed is actually a deciding factor, why else would Belcher have such a good matchup against ANT and DDANT. But to meet your argument in fact, winning faster gives your opponent less time to find resources to fend of your win, combo won’t out control the opponent like Counter Top or Stax and thus you have to win before they have the opportunity to win.

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Originally Posted by Wave

The ways of winning on turn two without top is unlikley to happen, they are possible, but unlikley since the commitment of each one is to much. You cannot deny that it is easier and less comitting to win with Ad Nauseam or you would have cut the card entirely already. So what I wrote still applies.

The fast win discussion has been about the combo matchup where speed is actually a deciding factor, why else would Belcher have such a good matchup against ANT and DDANT. But to meet your argument in fact, winning faster gives your opponent less time to find resources to fend of your win, combo won’t out control the opponent like Counter Top or Stax and thus you have to win before they have the opportunity to win.

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Not really, you clearly have limited experience with DD. But that is irrelevant because that discussion just goes around in circles and no one will ever admit when they are wrong. Dave is totally correct in what he is saying. I would highly recommend that you pick up Belcher.

Regarding the second paragraph you wrote ...... read carefully what kicks wrote again. Belcher has a good matchup versus decks running 6+ Chants in the main and consistently win on turn 1-3??? Seriously? You remind me of this kid I used to know, he had an Angel LCD paintball gun when they first came out ($1500) and he talked a big game, but when he went onto the field, he got destroyed and always wondered why. Then he would make excuses for his performance. Never once did it occur to him that paintball requires immense amounts of skill and practice and that the player makes the gun, rather than the other way around.

I see people giving so much reasons to play straight ANT list -which I agree- and some DD Fanboys critisize him with some lack of explanations. That`s me or that`s what happening?

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

Not really, you clearly have limited experience with DD. But that is irrelevant because that discussion just goes around in circles and no one will ever admit when they are wrong. Dave is totally correct in what he is saying. I would highly recommend that you pick up Belcher.

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Actually I have no problem in admitting when I am wrong (this is internet who cares?) and that my experience with Doomsday might be less than yours, or maybe I am just playing it wrong and stuck in the old Vintage combo thinking. I think most of the ppl posting here do it in learning purpose to play the deck better. I am posting my experience with top in the deck and from my point of view, if you think otherwise meet my arguments and the other pro ANT players arguments with real well developed arguments. Just saying you are inexperienced is still like I wrote before hindering the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Wave

Doomsday win on turn 2 is actually harder to play than Ad Nauseam win on turn two.

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Wait, was his point not IT speed vs DD speed?

Sincerely, if you think Belcher has a good matchup against DDANT, your opponents must be the greatest lucksacks on Earth. They HAVE to Proton Cannon you out, specially in game 2, where you can just MT for Echoing Truth.

Last tournament I played, I beat (no kidding) 2 Belcher players, twice each (for Swiss and Topx). I lost one single game, where the dude Belchered me out on the play.

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Originally Posted by jegger

Thanks for the answer. :wink:
How many copies do you use?
I'm thinking to use it if the number of tempo decks at high tables is more than 10-15% of the field.

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I play it as a 4-of at the moment, but maybe I'm cutting one and another card to add 1-2 Swarms back to my board for the combo mirror and the merfolk matchup.

Played a tournament yesterday and went 4-0-1 (I drawed the last round with my friend a landstill-player, so that we get prize 1+2, and we played for the first pick and I won 2-0, so in fact 5-0-0)
The matchups were pretty easy:

Zoo 2-0
White Wheenie 2-0
Zoo 2-0
Zoo 2-1
Landstill 2-0

I won three times via Ad Nauseam, one time with IGG-Loop and seven times via Doomsday and killed 4 Gaddock Teegs :> DD is just that awesome!

My list was:

2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Silence
4 Orim's Chant
1 Krosan Grip
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony


SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Silence
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Doomsday

How was Carpet of Flowers for you? Isn't Xantid Swarm the better alternative against blue decks such as Merfolk?

Congrats on your finish!

I'm glad to hear someone has been testing Carpet of Flowers. I have been too busy/lazy to try it out.

Xantid Swarm is probably better against Merfolk than Carpet but it dies quite easily against Canadian Thresh (I prefer not making more of my opponent's deck good against me). Carpet should allow the storm player to easily work through the oponent's mana denial in both matchups if it resolves - making most of the opposition's deck irrelevant. If Carpet gets countered, thats one less piece of relevant disruption you have to worry about.

Congrats Chris.

Nice matchups btw :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

I may be wrong, but looks like people are discussing Top and Ponder with a single scenario: to win quickly.
This is not what the deck wants. You do not want to try to win, cast AN or another engine and meet a counter, etc.
You want to be sure to win, it does not matter the turn (obv. 2nd turn win is cooler than 9th turn...)
If your opening hand has business, maybe you can go for it, but if not, what?
Are you going to risk almost or your resources? You can recover, but this works like a sniper: one shot, one kill.
As I said, I may be wrong, but there's some confusion with these two cards. You can win quickly, but if not, you need something helpful midgame and so on.
I wouldn't focus on ending the game as soon as possible, but in winning inevitably.

It's just an opinion...

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You are right, it does not matter what turn the win is achieved as long as the win is achieved.

However there is a lot to be said about speed. Numerous times I have gone for a win on turn 2 to see my opponent was waiting to drop their CB/Teeg/Canonist on the next turn - a turn they never got. Why do I need Top to dig for an answer to a card when I can just win before any of them are able to be cast?

The longer games go on, the more likely your opponent is able to establish a game-winning board state. The longer games go on, the more relevant your opponent's cards become.

Goldfishing as fast as possible is not always the correct way to play, though it can be right at times, but regardless when you give your opponent more time they are going to cast their Ponders/Brainstorms, dig with their own Tops, get an extra attack phase or two, get an extra land drop to Waste your land, and ultimately your opponent will always benefit more from extra turns than you will.

This idea is called tempo and it is the only reason to play this deck. It just so happens that tempo is one of the hardest things to describe about this game, but everyone knows when they see it (he won the turn before I could cast my bomb and win the game!).

As for a non-DD Tendrils vs. DD Tendrils, speed is largely irrelevant. The fact that non-DD builds run more disruption, however, is critical.

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Originally Posted by Rico Suave

You are right, it does not matter what turn the win is achieved as long as the win is achieved.

However there is a lot to be said about speed. Numerous times I have gone for a win on turn 2 to see my opponent was waiting to drop their CB/Teeg/Canonist on the next turn - a turn they never got. Why do I need Top to dig for an answer to a card when I can just win before any of them are able to be cast?

The longer games go on, the more likely your opponent is able to establish a game-winning board state. The longer games go on, the more relevant your opponent's cards become.

Goldfishing as fast as possible is not always the correct way to play, though it can be right at times, but regardless when you give your opponent more time they are going to cast their Ponders/Brainstorms, dig with their own Tops, get an extra attack phase or two, get an extra land drop to Waste your land, and ultimately your opponent will always benefit more from extra turns than you will.

This idea is called tempo and it is the only reason to play this deck. It just so happens that tempo is one of the hardest things to describe about this game, but everyone knows when they see it (he won the turn before I could cast my bomb and win the game!).

As for a non-DD Tendrils vs. DD Tendrils, speed is largely irrelevant. The fact that non-DD builds run more disruption, however, is critical.

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Yeah, sure. But the way you put just makes it looks like the turn 1 Ponder always leads to a turn 2 win, which is not true at all.

Top adds a whole new level of consistency to storm, you always draw the best of the three cards on the top of your library. And while it is slow against every kind of permanent-based disruption, it owns counters as you can just throw Chants at them until one sticks.

Speed kills. But if you're playing in a blue meta with Merfolk/Tempo ***** once a Chant has ben FoW'ed taking a chance and praying the don't have another FoW or Daze just plain sucks. I'd much rather try to win a game on turn 15 with DD fighting through all the shit they throw at me, than testing if they have a second Fow + blue card on turn 3.

If you push speed too much there are going to be situations where the only thing you can do is dump your hand and pray. While if you're playing DD and Top it opens a larger window for your skills to matter instead of just relying on luck.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Yeah, sure. But the way you put just makes it looks like the turn 1 Ponder always leads to a turn 2 win, which is not true at all.

Top adds a whole new level of consistency to storm, you always draw the best of the three cards on the top of your library. And while it is slow against every kind of permanent-based disruption, it owns counters as you can just throw Chants at them until one sticks.

Speed kills. But if you're playing in a blue meta with Merfolk/Tempo ***** once a Chant has ben FoW'ed taking a chance and praying the don't have another FoW or Daze just plain sucks. I'd much rather try to win a game on turn 15 with DD fighting through all the shit they throw at me, than testing if they have a second Fow + blue card on turn 3.

If you push speed too much there are going to be situations where the only thing you can do is dump your hand and pray. While if you're playing DD and Top it opens a larger window for your skills to matter instead of just relying on luck.

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Yes, there are a lot of good things that can be said about Top when a quick kill is not feasible or the best choice. It is very strong with fetches, it can put your resources to use if you weren't going to use them anyway, and it can even provide a back-up plan if something goes horribly wrong.

The question becomes, are you going to run Top instead of Ponder, despite the fact Ponder is clearly better in this deck?

Keep in mind Ponder has a number of advantages over Top beyond the goldfish.

1) Multiple Ponders are not so bad, but multiple Tops are awful and clunky. I've used a lot of excuses to justify running 3+ Tops in decks that they don't belong in, but they are just that - excuses. It can be tough to realize when it is wrong and I am no exception to this.

2) Ponder has much better synergy with Brainstorm, if only because it can shuffle. Top and Brainstorm is mediocre synergy, especially if you're lacking a shuffle effect where it's downright bad synergy.

3) Ponder is simply better at creating storm. With Top you can play it to create storm, but in order to get any use out of it (beyond a blind cantrip) you need to dump more mana into it. Thus, playing Top and using it to find a Dark Ritual is almost pointless, whereas Pondering into that same Ritual will actually begin to generate mana.

Essentially, there are a number of plays that open up simply because you have an extra mana open. This gives the deck more flexibility in its plays, allowing you to play around situations that are quite simply not possible otherwise (Daze being a great example). The deck is more agile and is perhaps more rewarding of skill by being able to do the right thing at the right time instead of being a step behind.

It is much like Intuition-AK in control decks. The deck gains more raw power and is better in the long run, but it raises a number of other issues that could be solved by playing a less demanding set of cards.

Once again I'm not saying Top has no place in the deck. I'm saying that 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm belong in the deck before a single Top does, and then what do you start cutting to fit in Top? Builds with DD are especially limited in deck space...

Top also messes up with the opponent's game plan in numerous ways:
- They often have to counter it if they think you're playing countertop.
- They can't play Standstill on turn 2 if you have a Top in play.
- They have to find a reasonable clock fast or bury themself under your higher card quality. This can mess up with their cantrip selection. And even if they manage to have a nice clock, the chance of you going off with an engine that doesn't care about life points (as long as you have 2) increases (with Top in play, comboing out with doomsday is easier).
- Top is a great tool to hide cards from opponent's discard spells.
- Top allows you to have virtually nine cards in hand the turn you're going off against control decks.
- 2xTop is a storm generator.

@Nevamara: Do you really like Swarm? I´ve been hating him all the time. First of all, as a 2-off you won´t have him in your opening 7 most of the time.
Then you have to fetch Tropical against decks you don´t want it (merrows,Canadian) and he doesn´t even win against Canadian.
I love Carpet of Flowers in theorie as both decks basicaly have only 4 FoW to disrupt you but win via Manadenial+daze-effects. Carpet just stops it and fuels faster wins. I haven´t had time to test it (atm dredge seems sicker to me) but I already buyed 4 Carpets :)

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Top also messes up with the opponent's game plan in numerous ways:
- They often have to counter it if they think you're playing countertop.
- They can't play Standstill on turn 2 if you have a Top in play.
- They have to find a reasonable clock fast or bury themself under your higher card quality. This can mess up with their cantrip selection. And even if they manage to have a nice clock, the chance of you going off with an engine that doesn't care about life points (as long as you have 2) increases (with Top in play, comboing out with doomsday is easier).
- Top is a great tool to hide cards from opponent's discard spells.
- Top allows you to have virtually nine cards in hand the turn you're going off against control decks.
- 2xTop is a storm generator.

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QFT!!!! Good to find someone that actually understands storm combo in legacy!!! :cool:

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Originally Posted by Nemavera

I play it as a 4-of at the moment, but maybe I'm cutting one and another card to add 1-2 Swarms back to my board for the combo mirror and the merfolk matchup.

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Thanks for the answer.
Yes, with your pairings Carpet is not the optimal choice. Perhaps you are unlucky with pairings about the use of Carpet and usually you are infested from tempo decks. I don't know.
I've done a little bit of test with Carpet against Dreadstill UGR and Kikko's Gift and it's a must counter. It's very good in some mategames.
Best regards and happy christmas.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Top also messes up with the opponent's game plan in numerous ways:
- They often have to counter it if they think you're playing countertop.
- They can't play Standstill on turn 2 if you have a Top in play.
- They have to find a reasonable clock fast or bury themself under your higher card quality. This can mess up with their cantrip selection. And even if they manage to have a nice clock, the chance of you going off with an engine that doesn't care about life points (as long as you have 2) increases (with Top in play, comboing out with doomsday is easier).
- Top is a great tool to hide cards from opponent's discard spells.
- Top allows you to have virtually nine cards in hand the turn you're going off against control decks.
- 2xTop is a storm generator.

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And the list goes on...

- Mystical Tutor into Tendrils + Ponder costs UU, while Top can be played with black mana, which tends to be more abundant especially in no decks with no Chrome Moxes
- Tops allow you to play Ad Nauseam with mana from LEDs
- Top somehow allows you to Ponder EOT the turn you combo out, while it is slower it justs saves you one mana on the turn it actually matters

In the end it's a matter of speed versus quality. Ponder is faster, but the advantage given by STD on the long run is huge. Maybe there's not a better card, it's just different styles of play.

The ponder VS Top discussion is senseless.

It's a matter of approach. If someone wants to go faster with the deck, this player may think it's better to use 4x ponder + 0-2x Top instead of the opposite.

It's not a mistake about deckbuilding, but a different approach to the gameplan of the deck. There's nothing wrong in playing 4x ponder if it works for someone, but THIS deck is able to use and abuse Tops like no other.

I think that time and results will confirm which build is most efficient: DD or non-DD, Tops or no Tops.

One last comment: if this deck is created or updated with the Tops (please "fathers" of the creature let us know), we should think about it and realise that it is designed to use them. Therefore to not be fast as hell, as instead, to have a chance midgame without risking your *ss.

That's just a thought...

I'm not sure how many people who have tested carpet but what do you typically take out to bring them in??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CUB3X

I'm not sure how many people who have tested carpet but what do you typically take out to bring them in??

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Well, your opponent has to be playing Islands... and some mana denial (Wasteland/Stifle) and Daze. So that's Merfolk, Tempo *****.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

I think that time and results will confirm which build is most efficient: DD or non-DD, Tops or no Tops.

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Time and results have already confirmed non-DD lists out perform DD lists.

Time and results have shown Ponder is far more widespread in AN combo than Top.

Time is just waiting for people in this thread to wake up and stop playing a pet deck.

You're really susceptible to misleading statistics, aren't you?

You have to look at the number of FT lists that use DDay compared to the number of lists that Don't use DDay (what you seem to have done) and THEN compare them to the number of total times they were played (what you didn't do) to get an accurate percentage of each and see which deck performs better overall. Then, to be holistic about it, you have to look at the metagames in which each performed better and worse.

But thanks for playing and trying to bash a good deck. Better luck next time.

It's true that more non-DD ANT lists are T8-ing. But that's probably because more people play those decks than DDANT. One of the reasons is maybe because these players think non-DD is better. However, it might also be because they just haven't learned or can't udnerstand how to play Doomsday effectively. Whether that be because of a lack of time for practice or of personal preference, we'll never know.

DDANT also sometimes just gets too complicated to play compared to ANT where you just land the Ad Nauseam and go auto-pilot from there. My head hurts just playing DDANT online in crafting out DD stacks to get out of situations. I would imagine it would be worse for long tournaments.

In an effort to get away from this discussion, here is a play scenario. You are playing a game one against an unknown opponent and are on the play. You are playing Pulp_Fiction's hybrid list*. You mull then keep this opening hand:

Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Dark Ritual
Doomsday

You lead Misty Rainforest->Island, Sensei's Divining Top. It resolves and you pass the turn. From here:

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

Not all of these situations have finite endings. Some are just to see how you play with limited information while trying to improve your own position.


*for reference, pulp_fiction's hybrid maindeck in shorthand
9 u-fetch
2 sea
2 tundra
1 trop
1 island
4 petal
2 mox
4 rit
2 crit
4 led
4 bs
2 ponder
4 sdt
3 chant
3 silence
1 kgrip
4 mystical
3 infernal
1 adn
1 dd
1 med
1 igg
1 toa

I don't get where everyone is saying that DDANT is a WAAY more complicated than ANT. You mean you actually have to use your brain a little bit? Sure. But for the most part DDANT can follow the same strategy as ANT and still do fine. DD is an OPTION and not a necessity for winning. I find myself using the standard pile more than half the time when DD, and the post-board piles aren't too difficult either as long as you can count your mana correctly. Familiarizing yourself with things like Brainstorm/Top/LED tricks due to DD will help you become more than just a better DD player, you'll improve yourself as an overall Storm player.

EDIT: Just saw emidln's post. Here's how I'd go about it. Correct me if I am wrong, please. I am still learning the deck and could use any help!

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?

Untap, draw a card, and use the Island to Brainstorm. I want to see as many cards as possible, and hopefully go off ASAP before I'm within range of burn. Given that I have Dark Ritual in hand, I only need XXU after Dark Ritual to go off with DD. Because my opponent did not lead off with a fetch, I will most likely have to wait another turn or two (or depends what I get off of my Brainstorm) before going off because I will need to rack a storm up to 10 instead of 9 (which I am currently 2 storm shy of). Given that my Brainstorm is ass, I can play and crack a fetch then top before passing the turn. EDIT: So I was just trying to see if I could optimize the IGG DD pile here with LED/LED/IGG/Cantrip/Tendrils when I noticed that emidln cut the a card from the hand, so you can't pull that pile till the next turn.

If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?

The same as the previous, but I will play a Tundra before Brainstorming to avoid Daze and Stifle. EDIT: I will play a fetchland and Brainstorm (without cracking the fetch), then weigh my options from here. This allows me to play around Daze and seeing what I have while still not walking into a Stifle.

If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

After a bit of thinking, I think they will take the Doomsday out of fear. Taking a the Brainstorm seems like a weaker choice because I still have Top in play to help me sculpt. Dark Ritual may be another option when they see that I am low on black sources (fetched an Island first and have a Tundra in hand), but I still believe that DD is the correct choice.