[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Nihil- looks like the only real difference between our lists now is that you're running a zealot main, and have one less pact and one less wish. And now you think you want to add another tutor. Dare I say we are starting to agree on the MD? haha

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Ofcourse we are. Now I'm playing the Wish list and there aren't many more options to tweak it ^^
Before I was just commenting on how my list seemed stronger to me. I must say that I'm merely playing the Wish list because I wanted a change. I really haven't had time to test which list is faster or more consistent, but I wanted to change.

I must say and this is important. That this is the 3rd tournament I take the wish list to, and only the first one I top 8 with, compared to my Cloudstone Curio + Grapeshot list, with which I top8 3 tournaments in a row.

I feel like the deck to be more compact like this, but I seemed to be able to do many more tricks, and had to make more decision, more thought, with my old list.

I should need more time to actually test and compare results, but I'm really happy with how elves are working in general. Next thing to test would be VV + Intuition / Buried Alive

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Originally Posted by catmint

Congratulations to your good result! The Problem with Yixlid jailer is that you need to play black and that it does not help vs. Reanimator.

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As I said, I recommend Yixlid Jailer as the best option against Dredge, but not anything else, and specially not against Reanimate. That's why I said that Faerie Macabre would be a better Wish target in general, but your question was: What would you guys side in against Dredge?

On the other topics: I use Burrenton and Escort, and they are Awesome! Revoker would be good but really not necessary, just as Karakas, Kataki the same, we beat Affinity, and instead of Ethersworn, I think that Gaddock Teeg would be better.

I used to run 2x Orim's chant against combo and control, and if you feel like you have enough room in the side, I really do recommend them. Great cards! Siding 1 in against control is always nice.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

On the other topics: I use Burrenton and Escort, and they are Awesome! Revoker would be good but really not necessary, just as Karakas, Kataki the same, we beat Affinity, and instead of Ethersworn, I think that Gaddock Teeg would be better.

I used to run 2x Orim's chant against combo and control, and if you feel like you have enough room in the side, I really do recommend them. Great cards! Siding 1 in against control is always nice.

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I think we have an edge over affinity, but there are times we cannot combo but have 4 mana in T3 to buy us 1-2 more rounds for the win... I also want to test Kataki vs. monoartifact stax or metalworker builds.
Maybe Karakas is not necessary but I want to test if I can actually use it anticipating a iona or vs. a show and tell emrakul.

In which specific situation do you think gaddock teeg is better than canonist?
I do want to test which of the questionable sideboard spots are not that necessary, so I can probably make room for a third orim's chant. As you say it is a very flexible card that helps not only in combo MU and might be better than Mindbreak Trap.

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Originally Posted by catmint

I think we have an edge over affinity, but there are times we cannot combo but have 4 mana in T3 to buy us 1-2 more rounds for the win... I also want to test Kataki vs. monoartifact stax or metalworker builds.
Maybe Karakas is not necessary but I want to test if I can actually use it anticipating a iona or vs. a show and tell emrakul.

In which specific situation do you think gaddock teeg is better than canonist?
I do want to test which of the questionable sideboard spots are not that necessary, so I can probably make room for a third orim's chant. As you say it is a very flexible card that helps not only in combo MU and might be better than Mindbreak Trap.

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Wouldn't Wishing for Viridian Shaman be good for either scenario against artifact decks? On turn 3 they don't normally have enough attacks to make us worry about losing to lethal, and given that we can quite easily find Wirewood Symbiote, we start to just annihilate their board position by recycling V.Shaman. I'm not sure also in which situation would you be limited to 4 mana on turn 3 with a Wish in hand. (if there's a choke on mana on turn 2, Wish for Cradle)

I don't think Canonist is the right call in this deck at all. It does everything we don't want to see - stops our combo turn. Teeg is more beneficial in all combo matchups in that it allows us to tutor for it with GSZ, allows us to continue comboing off Glimpse/Pact/Wish, and stops all the troublesome 4cc spells from wrecking us (at least from the Combo matchups, and EE :P)

I don't see Kataki being better off than Viridian Shaman however. Even against Stax.

Also, regarding SnT Emrakul - this is a bye. We can combo off and cast our own (free turn), and then on the extra turn go off again. We can also cast enough permanents that we simply ignore the Annihilator 6 and soak up the 15 damage.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Also, regarding SnT Emrakul - this is a bye. We can combo off and cast our own (free turn), and then on the extra turn go off again. We can also cast enough permanents that we simply ignore the Annihilator 6 and soak up the 15 damage.

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We can also tutor Masticore and pay 30 mana to kill Emrakul which is TONS more fun ^^

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Originally Posted by catmint

In which specific situation do you think gaddock teeg is better than canonist?

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I think I was a little too rude. What I meant to say is that we need to totally optimize our spots. We are a combo deck afterwards. So having cards for matchups for which we already have sideboard (Krosan grip, Viridian Shaman, Viridian Zealot) or siding in cards to which we usually want to fight, destroy, and hate (Canonist) doesn't seem too positive.
I believe that Gaddock Teeg is superior firstly because it can be tutored in many more pairings (it is more versatile-optimized). ANT might need a whole turn to get rid of it, good enough slowing, specially if you also run Orim's and/or Thorn of amethyst. He doesn't stop our deck's main purpose. Findable with other tutors. Has a way cooler art ^^
Also if we land a fast enough Canonist, that will mean that we don't have many dudes out, and that will cause us and ANT to draw, and draw, and draw for a couple turns, which will probably lead into ANT finding all they need to deal with us, faster than we do.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Nihil- looks like the only real difference between our lists now is that you're running a zealot main, and have one less pact and one less wish.

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You might also realize that I do not run Emrakul. He's too much of an overkill, wasted side spot.
I have played tons of games without him and only with Mirror Entity, worked so well so far, never needed him, but instead Mirror showed useful as a cheaper pumper a couple times.

Is mortarpod a good sideboard? I am running a Hivemaster build so making tokens is not an issue

Wow the new set got some hate in it:
Torpor Orb (2)
Artifact (R)
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

This stops our glimpse from triggering?

But more:
Mental Misstep (pu)
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

This might be a good sideboard card for us too, but dang it can counter nearly the entire deck! FOR FREE! :(

Marrow Shards (pw)
Instant (U)
Marrow Shards deals 1 damage to each attacking creature.

I dont think this will be very played, maybe instead of Wing shards in some mono white builds but even then I dont think it will see much play. And with archdruid/warcaller it should be okay.

But dang this new set is getting crazy! :) A free counter, a improved illusionary mask...!

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Wow the new set got some hate in it:
Torpor Orb (2)
Artifact (R)
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

This stops our glimpse from triggering?

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Glimpse triggers on casting so Orb doesn't stop it.

what do u guys think about the 2 mana 5/6 guy that can only be cast of creatures ?

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

what do u guys think about the 2 mana 5/6 guy that can only be cast of creatures ?

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It is a good creature, but not for Combo Elves. It can probably work for Aggro Elves but definitely not Combo Elves

And that's because? I mean it's nice as a sideboard card where people board in stuff like canonist or other anti chain combo spells. Beating down with 5/6 creatures seems ok for me.

Yeah, but then you might just as well play Tarmogoyf. At least goyf triggers Sentinel and can be found with GSZ/Pact. Or just play Jitte.

I saw a few comments about Mirror Entity...just curious: why would anyone use Mirror Entity over Joraga Warcaller? I just started playing with 1x Joraga Warcaller maindeck, and it seems like a really solid Pact target.

A question: I am currently using 15 lands (3 Verdant Catacombs, 1 Wooded Foothills, 11 Forests) and I'm thinking about putting in an Elvish Spirit Guide x1 instead of 1x Forest. How many lands are folks running currently, and is 14 + 1x ESG enough mana sources?

Mirror Entity allows you to produce infinite mana with Wirewood Symbiote, in a really hairbrained loop that I can't remember exactly at this moment. Using that trick, you can attack with the elves you started off the turn with for as much as you need, say with 300/300 creatures.

RE: Lands
We've tried anything between 14 Forest to 5 forests + 9 fetchland, and in between. I've been happy running 6 forests, 7 fetchlands, and 1 Gaea's Cradle, along with 2 ESG. I think the more Cradles you run, the higher the dependence on ESG becomes.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I saw a few comments about Mirror Entity...just curious: why would anyone use Mirror Entity over Joraga Warcaller? I just started playing with 1x Joraga Warcaller maindeck, and it seems like a really solid Pact target.

A question: I am currently using 15 lands (3 Verdant Catacombs, 1 Wooded Foothills, 11 Forests) and I'm thinking about putting in an Elvish Spirit Guide x1 instead of 1x Forest. How many lands are folks running currently, and is 14 + 1x ESG enough mana sources?

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On the mirror entity thing: Warcaller is awesome, but we usually need 2 or 3 aggro turns to kill with him, with Entity it is usually only 1 turn. So Warcaller is better because it's good for combo (CMC 1), but Entity is tons better as a finisher. Ofcourse you should only play him next to Living Wish or Chord of calling. Entity you also need to actually test it to see how good it is ;)
Also the infinite mana loop really isn't complicated, try to figure it out for yourselves, if you can't private me. Keep in mind that Entity+Symbiote can also bounce Regal Force to the hand to recast.

On the lands topic: It depend on the number of Llanowars you run. Right now I have 7 Llanowars, and 14 lands, and it's really solid. I actually would run 13 lands + 1 Craddle. The problem is that I only own 1 and it is a Wish target, but I would add another one maindeck. I tried it for a time when they lend me an extra one and it was awesome. This would be the absolute limit, and you need 7 Manowars.

I have always thought about adding 1 Elvish Spirit guide, but since I don't own any I haven't tested it. I found a couple games where I had 1 summoner's pact in hand and needed 1 mana to keep on comboing, and that would be an ESG!

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Wouldn't Wishing for Viridian Shaman be good for either scenario against artifact decks? On turn 3 they don't normally have enough attacks to make us worry about losing to lethal, and given that we can quite easily find Wirewood Symbiote, we start to just annihilate their board position by recycling V.Shaman. I'm not sure also in which situation would you be limited to 4 mana on turn 3 with a Wish in hand. (if there's a choke on mana on turn 2, Wish for Cradle)

I don't think Canonist is the right call in this deck at all. It does everything we don't want to see - stops our combo turn. Teeg is more beneficial in all combo matchups in that it allows us to tutor for it with GSZ, allows us to continue comboing off Glimpse/Pact/Wish, and stops all the troublesome 4cc spells from wrecking us (at least from the Combo matchups, and EE :P)

I don't see Kataki being better off than Viridian Shaman however. Even against Stax.

Also, regarding SnT Emrakul - this is a bye. We can combo off and cast our own (free turn), and then on the extra turn go off again. We can also cast enough permanents that we simply ignore the Annihilator 6 and soak up the 15 damage.

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Conncerning Gaddock vs. Canonist:
Versus the combo matchup I thought it is more likely for us to win the game with canonist, because (I thought - no experience yet) if we allow them to play multiple ponder, preordains or whatever wishes/tutors with gaddock they can bounce it really easy and win the same turn.

Siding him in gives me only a little advantage because I play 4 pact and no GSZ. The likeliness that I am able to play him T2 + being able to pay for pact is not much higher than beeing able to wish and cast in T2.
Btw: I goldfished 30 games to check how fast I can play canonist and it was 7% Turn2. 63% turn 3.
Canonist does not stop our deck... only our combo, but the aggro plan is still working.
The extra value of Gaddock vs. othe rmatchups is an argument. Do you side him in vs. control?

Concerning Kataki vs. Viridian Shaman
I think you are right here. Usually there is only 1 Artifact that is very troublesome (chalice, plating, metalworker) and bouncing and playing again is of course awesome. I felt that affinity decks got better though... having Agent of Bolas and more colered hate cards from the side, so they can interact more by still having a super strong clock. Since their lands are also artifacts this little cmc 2 creature should just ruin them. Vs. metalworker builds Kataki does not really help that much and vs. staxx builds we need to destroy the chalice/trinisphere.
So overall I think you are right and Kataki is not necessary.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Conncerning Gaddock vs. Canonist:
Versus the combo matchup I thought it is more likely for us to win the game with canonist, because (I thought - no experience yet) if we allow them to play multiple ponder, preordains or whatever wishes/tutors with gaddock they can bounce it really easy and win the same turn.

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The point of Gaddock Teeg isn't to lock them out; it's to buy us enough time to combo off for our deck. Canonist is a symmetrical effect in that aspect. Gaddock Teeg stops their combo kill; they can still burn a Burning Wish to find removal for it; oh well.

Canonist doesn't necessarily stop them from Storming off. They can still cast all their artifacts, then finish up with Tendrils of Agony; or Empty the Warrens making tokens. granted, we're not worried about a bunch of tokens attacking us (we can make more creatures easily); but there still exists a threat that they can still kill under Canonist, and since we're now limited by 1 spell a turn, we might not be able to out-creature EtW.

The important point remains that Teeg allows us to still combo off and kill in a timely manner; where Canonist requires several turns to aggro.

So i was thinking about playing combo elves in GP Providence but Mental Misstep has me running scared. Do you guys think autumn's veil might be worth running to avoid getting glimpse countered?

Ha, you could run your own MM's. But Autumn's Veil seems decent as a Silence for this deck. Any other opinions?

Just run a more resilient list with game outside of Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

On the mirror entity thing: Warcaller is awesome, but we usually need 2 or 3 aggro turns to kill with him, with Entity it is usually only 1 turn. So Warcaller is better because it's good for combo (CMC 1), but Entity is tons better as a finisher. Ofcourse you should only play him next to Living Wish or Chord of calling. Entity you also need to actually test it to see how good it is ;)
Also the infinite mana loop really isn't complicated, try to figure it out for yourselves, if you can't private me. Keep in mind that Entity+Symbiote can also bounce Regal Force to the hand to recast.

On the lands topic: It depend on the number of Llanowars you run. Right now I have 7 Llanowars, and 14 lands, and it's really solid. I actually would run 13 lands + 1 Craddle. The problem is that I only own 1 and it is a Wish target, but I would add another one maindeck. I tried it for a time when they lend me an extra one and it was awesome. This would be the absolute limit, and you need 7 Manowars.

I have always thought about adding 1 Elvish Spirit guide, but since I don't own any I haven't tested it. I found a couple games where I had 1 summoner's pact in hand and needed 1 mana to keep on comboing, and that would be an ESG!

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I was thinking of Warcaller as an additional mana-sink with Elvish Archdruid/Priest of Titania. If you pull it off, you can tap one of them for like 7-8 mana, untap with Symbiote, tap again for a total of 16 mana, then pump that into Joraga Warcaller making him a 9/9 dude and all your elves get +4/+4. If that doesn't let you get a 1-turn aggro win...you must be playing the mirror match, lol.

The infini-loop isn't too hard to figure out...Entity makes Symbiote into an elf. So you can bounce him to hand (with himself or another) and then replay him so he can untap another target elf (hopefully a priest or archrduid, but untapping 1-3 Nettle Sentinels is fine, too...) You could bounce Regal Force if you don't have a glimpse handy, which would get you the cards you need.

I am currently using 6 llanowars (4 Llanowar Elves, 2 Fyndhorn Elves. I cut 1 Fyndhorn for 1 Warcaller) I have all 8 available, and here is my current list. I know I'll get flak because I'm still using a Grapeshot win/con and no Living Wish package.

4x Llanowar Elves
2x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Birchlore Rangers
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Elvish Archdruid
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Priest of Titania
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Regal Force
1x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Summoner's Pact
1x Grapeshot

3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
10x Forest

Sideboard (currently):

3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Caller of the Claw
4x Gleeful Sabotage
4x Autumn's Veil
1x Imperious Perfect


BTW, I am indeed using Autumn's Veil in the sideboard vs. control.

Seems like a normal elve list without wish and with an unusual sideboard Mr. Safety.
Can't be that wrong...

I was testing IBA's 4 archdruid/4 titania + 4 wish build in different variations.
Since this build does not rely on glimpse that much I am not really afraid of Mental Misstep.

What I like most about this build is that it one of the 8 mana-masters survives, the game can be very often ended the turn they don't suffer from sickness (even with glimpse countered/discarded or not drawn). Playing 8 makes it easier to recover vs. countermagic and removal, however it is a tempo loss and gives opponents the opportunity to establish a lock or win somehow. Mental Misstep would protect from Bolt, Swords, Grim Lavamancer and we would be able to do something about the natural predator of combo and counter SD.top. If Misstep helps significant vs. other bad matchups like ANT, TES (which I don't believe) it might be worth including 2-4 Misstep somewhere in the 75.

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I am not really afraid of Mental Misstep.

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Same here! I just add 4 too main :>

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Originally Posted by xazzax

Same here! I just add 4 too main :>

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I'm not finding Mental Misstep...what is this card?


@catmint: my sideboard could use some work, actually. Thorn of Amethyst was for the combo matchup (TES, ANT), Caller of the Claw and Autumn's Veil are to protect my combo or give me an alternate aggro win vs. CounterTop/control, Imperious Perfect is my 4th lord if I need to be more aggressive in a matchup (and conveniently combos with Symbiote/Ranger to build an impressive board position), and Gleeful Sabotage is to combat the new wave of Affinity/Steel Stompy decks and anything hustling Chalice/Trinisphere (conspire is pretty easy to do with elves, and it gets around Counterbalance because the 2nd spell isn't cast but simply copied and put directly onto the stack)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I'm not finding Mental Misstep...what is this card?


@catmint: my sideboard could use some work, actually. Thorn of Amethyst was for the combo matchup (TES, ANT), Caller of the Claw and Autumn's Veil are to protect my combo or give me an alternate aggro win vs. CounterTop/control, Imperious Perfect is my 4th lord if I need to be more aggressive in a matchup (and conveniently combos with Symbiote/Ranger to build an impressive board position), and Gleeful Sabotage is to combat the new wave of Affinity/Steel Stompy decks and anything hustling Chalice/Trinisphere (conspire is pretty easy to do with elves, and it gets around Counterbalance because the 2nd spell isn't cast but simply copied and put directly onto the stack)

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It's a card in new phyrexia:

http://mtgsalvation.com/new-phyrexia-spoiler.html

I don't know how to give you the exact card but it's a blue instant.

The question I have is it worth putting some in the SB for our own counter back-up?

Mental Misstep (one phyrexian blue mana)

Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

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The question I have is it worth putting some in the SB for our own counter back-up?

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You can counter discard and protect your deck form other Mental Misstep.
Im sure tempo decks will play 4 of. Goblins can run it too protect vial and lackey.
Its worth to play it in main.

This card is scary. It's like new daze and you dont need to have other blue spells.
Omg even zoo can run this.

Mental Misstep doesn't hit the cards that give Elves problems. I don't think it's an option here. Just run a more diverse game plan and mana curve. Honestly, most builds are leaning too heavily on Glimpse anyway.

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Mental Misstep doesn't hit the cards that give Elves problems.

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Possible, but opponents Mental Misstep can make problems and our MM is best response.

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more diverse game plan

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If you are not Glimpse concentrated you are slower then dredge, spring, zoo and there is no more reasons to play elves.
You dont have tools to make mid-range deck form elves.

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Originally Posted by xazzax

Possible, but opponents Mental Misstep can make problems and our MM is best response.

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No it's not. It deals with exactly one problem card, and far from the most back-breaking at that. Pretty sure that we can do better than that for sideboard slots, and it sure as Hell isn't good main in the deck.

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If you are not Glimpse concentrated you are slower then dredge, spring, zoo and there is no more reasons to play elves.
You dont have tools to make mid-range deck form elves.

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No you're not. If your opponent isn't playing removal Elves should be going off pretty reliably on turn 3, with or without Glimpse. The only difference in going all in on Glimpse is that you have a marginally faster goldfish and a much briefer real tournament experience as you got 0-X-Drop

Leyline of Lifeforce would protect basically the whole deck except Glimpse from Misstep.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Mental Misstep doesn't hit the cards that give Elves problems.

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you dont think that SD.top, swords, bolt, thoughtseize and grim lavamancer cause elves problems?

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Originally Posted by catmint

you dont think that SD.top, swords, bolt, thoughtseize and grim lavamancer cause elves problems?

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Not enough to run a card that has 0% synergy with the rest of the deck.

I don't think it is worth putting Mental Misstep in the Main-deck but in the sidebaord I think it will do really well. We can use it against Sprial Tide (high tide) and also against TES (Dark ritual, Orim's chant.....). It could definitely give us a bigger edge over combo decks. I'm not saying we can't race combo decks but it will make the match-up better.

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Originally Posted by catmint

you dont think that SD.top, swords, bolt, thoughtseize and grim lavamancer cause elves problems?

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Not at all. Grim Lavamancer is only human (ha!) and runs out of gas pretty quickly - even in cantrip decks. You also can combo off without having creatures on the board to begin with. Gaea's Cradle helps to make up for the fact that they don't have haste. The spot removals only slow you down; and SDT we could care less about.

Counterbalance, is much different animal - but we know going in that this card is a pain to beat. GSZ and KGrips from the sideboard address this card.

Guys. There are so many cards that can ruin elves. They don't get played much, why? Because they suck against most other decks. Why are you so concerned with Mental Misstep when FOW fits in many decks and has been around for ages? MM certainly isn't better than FOW, and since FOW can counter anything, it will continue to see play in a very wide range of decks like it always has.

In other words, this is just another counter. Ya it's a good one, but counters have always been a problem that we address. This doesn't change our game plan against counters, we will be fine.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Guys. There are so many cards that can ruin elves. They don't get played much, why? Because they suck against most other decks. Why are you so concerned with Mental Misstep when FOW fits in many decks and has been around for ages? MM certainly isn't better than FOW, and since FOW can counter anything, it will continue to see play in a very wide range of decks like it always has.

In other words, this is just another counter. Ya it's a good one, but counters have always been a problem that we address. This doesn't change our game plan against counters, we will be fine.

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I'm thinking of using Mental Missstep against opponents who play TES, Spiral Tide, ect... Or is it just not worth a spot in the SB? And as a bonus we can us it against thoughtseize.

I like the application of MM against TES/Storm/Spiral Tide. Actually, I'm not worried about Spiral Tide - we're faster than them.

4 SB alone won't make a difference in those matchups however, so we will need 2-4 more pieces of disruption. I think it would be paired well with Thoughtseize/Therapy; leaving 7-9 additional SB cards to deal with other matchups or being used as wish targets.

I'm tempted to dig into blue to try out Spell Pierce/MM and Intuition/VV from the SB.

Would the new Peek cantrip at {PU} be a decent card MD in Elves combo or is the list too tight to fit 4 copies? It could potentially let you know whether to overextend, i.e. either you go aggro beatdown if they have sweepers and keep reserves in your hand, or to let you know if you should combo off with Glimpse to win when they don't have FoW, not to mention postboard with Therapies, it could be quite a house.

Just not sure if Elves is meant to be a 56-card deck or if there's just no space in the current decklist.

It's definitely a useful tool for any all-in combo deck. That being said, I don't consider Elves to be a "56"-card deck like Belcher can be; each card should aid the overall goal of generating tons of mana, or providing card advantage (visionary, symbiote), or tutor for either (Glimpse, Wish, GSZ, Pact).

We're pretty much stretching the mana base thin to just be able to operate under no-Glimpse conditions. I feel like diluting the consistency to add a Peek effect isn't what would benefit the deck. Rather, added redundancy or simply a more powerful card. Viz. "All Elves gain Haste" on a 2/2 for GG.

Long time ago I was rocking elves, and fell in love with Mirror Entity. I understand that people want the Warcaller as a glimpse combo piece that fufills 2 roles as both a 1 drop and a aggro lord beater/firespout insurence, however I believe that Mirror Entity is better simply because the opponent usually doesn't get a chance to firespout, cause all my elves are infinite/infinite.

Since I saw that someone asked about Mirror Entity Interactions, here's my post that lays out in exetreme detail how the various infinite combos work.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post476046

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Originally Posted by Ellistann

First time posting here, been lurking here for a while. Built up Combo elves and tried my hand the local legacy... Had fun, but will talk about that later...

Reading the thread, I came upon Frenchy-Man's post #170... he detailed the various combos you can do with Mirror Entity + Elves, but wrote it in french. Since I was trying to learn this deck, I translated it and re-wrote it to get the muscle memory of what is needed down/ my own personal stylings....

Figured I should post this so others dont have to bash their heads on this problem...

The Simple Combo Loop

Situation#1; Mirror Entity + Symbiote’s + Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel ; 0 mana in pool
1- Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Mirror Entity, Nettle Sentinel and Heritage Druid ; GGG
2 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; GG
3 - Use Symbiote’s ability; bounce Symbiote, untap Heritage Druid ; GG
4 - Play Symbiote, untap Nettle Sentinel ; G
5 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling;0
6 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote, Nettle and Heritage; GGG
7 - Use Symbiote’s ability: Bounce Symbiote, untap Heritage Druid; GGG
8 - Play Symbiote, untap Nettle Sentinel; GG
9 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; G
Result: In step 9 we are at the same point as step 5 but with a single extra mana. Repeat Steps 5 thru 9 as much as you want. Since you have infinite mana at this point, feel free to activate Mirror Entity and bounce Symbiotes infinitely and get unlimited untaps. This allows the untaping of everyone that doesn’t have summoning sickness to get in a single hit with a 100/100 Nettle Sentinel/Heritage Druid etc… (My meta has enough people that try for infinite life, so this is a bummer for them…)

If you already have one mana feel free to begin @ step 5.


That is the easy part. Here’s the combo without Heritage Druid and with Birchlore Ranger

Situation #2 ; Mirror Entity + Symbiote x2 + Nettle Sentinel x2 + Birchlore Ranger; 0 mana
Note- X Can be any color mana you want, but usually will be green…
1 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: Nettle Sentinel x2 and birchlore ranger+ Entity Mirror ; XG
2 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; X
3 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: tap both Symbiotes; XG
4 - Use Symbiote’s ability; bounce both Symbiotes, untap Mirror Entity and birchlore ranger; XG
5 – Play Symbiote #1, untap 2 Nettle Sentinels; X
6 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: tap Both Nettle Sentinels; XG
7 - Play Symbiote #2, untap both Nettle Sentinels; X
Result: We reach the same situation as in step#1 mana but with an extra mana of any color . This combo is like the simple combo in that it will have an unlimited amount of untaps, but will guarantee that the Symbiotes will have summoning sickness, so you will have hopefully 4 elves of 100/100 to beat face in with…

Situation#2b: Mirror Entity + Symbiote + Nettle x3 + birchlore ranger, 0 mana in pool
1 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: tap 2 Sentinels; X
2 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
3 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: tap Sentinel+ Symbiote, then birchlore + Entity; XG
4 - Use Symbiote’s ability; bounce Symbiote, untap birchlore; XG
5 – Play Symbiote, untap all 3 Nettle; X
6 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
7 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: Tap Nettle x2 then Nettle+ Symbiote; XG
8 - Use Symbiote’s ability; bounce Symbiote, untap Mirror Entity; XG
9 - Play Symbiote, untap all 3 Nettles; X
Result: Infinite mana, however if you need extra untaps of Lawnmower elves or extra guys for the Alpha Strike… here’s how you do it. We can cut out steps since we have a starting mana to avoid tapping Mirror Entity for mana.
10 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
11- Use Birchlore’s Ability: Tap Nettlex2 and Symbiote + last Nettle; XG
12 - Use Symbiote’s ability; bounce Symbiote, untap Other Elf; XG
13 - Play Symbiote, untap all 3 Nettles; X
Result: Same mana as when you started but an extra untap…

Next is a useful part to use if you don’t have the pieces you need, but have a Glimpse of Nature resolved….

Situation#3: Mirror Entity + Symbiote + Nettle x2 + birchlore ranger, Glimpse of Nature resolved.
1 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: Tap both Nettle; G
2 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
3 - Use Birchlore’s Ability: Tap Symbiote +birchlore ranger; G
4 - Use Symbiote’s ability; untap birchlore; G
5 - Play Symbiote, untap 2 Nettle, Draw a card: 0
Result: We find ourselves in the same position as we started mana-wise, but are able to draw a card off of glimpse…


Here’s the Last Combo Loop that I know of. I will show it to you in 3 parts: The untapping engine, The Infinite mana generation engine with preparation, The Infinite mana generation engine without anything to start.

Untapping Engine

Situation #4: Mirror Entity + Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid + 1 Other Elf(For the sake of simplicity, I will name it Y below ); 1 mana in the pool already
1 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
2 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid; GGG
3 - Use Symbiote #1’s ability; Bounce Symbiote and untap Heritage Druid; GGG
4 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Heritage Druid, Mirror Entity and Elf named Y; GGGGGG
5 - Use Symbiote#2’s ability; Bounce Symbiote and untap Heritage Druid; GGGGGG
6 - Play Symbiote #1+#2; GGGG
7 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; GGG
8 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid; GGGGGG
9 - Use Both Symbiotes’ ability; Bounce both Symbiotes and untap Heritage Druid and another Elf, (Mirror Entity and Elf Named Y currently need it, but with enough cycles you can do your entire team); GGGGGG
10 - Play Symbiote #1+#2; GGGG
As you can see, Step 6 and 10 are exactly the same. This combo is just making infinite untaps, which will allow you to make infinite mana…
To show you the exact loop needed to generate infinite mana where you have the EXACT same board state that you had previously but with more mana, this is that sequence…

The Infinite mana generation engine with preparation

Situation #4B: Mirror Entity + Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid + 1 Other Elf Y; 1 mana in the pool already
1 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
2 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid; GGG
3 - Use Symbiote #1’s ability; Bounce Symbiote and untap Heritage Druid; GGG
4 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Heritage Druid, Mirror Entity and Elf named Y; GGGGGG
5 - Use Symbiote#2’s ability; Bounce Symbiote and untap Heritage Druid; GGGGGG
6 - Play Symbiote #1+#2; GGGG
7 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; GGG
8 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid; GGGGGG
9 - Use Both Symbiotes’ ability; Bounce both Symbiotes and untap Heritage Druid and Mirror Entity; GGGGGG
10 - Play Symbiote #1+#2; GGGG
11 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; GGG
12 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid; GGGGGG
13 - Use Both Symbiotes’ ability; Bounce both Symbiotes and untap Heritage Druid and Elf Named Y; GGGGGG
14 - Play Symbiote #1+#2; GGGG
15 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; GGG
Result: Infinite mana in 3 green mana chunks.

Last Part of this loop is simple, once you know the loops… What if you didn’t have the necessary mana during the above operations to pay that first single mana in order to do the Mirror Entity activation?
The reason this is said last, rather than just tell you this part first and skip the 10 part loop, or the 15 part loop, is that this is a 29 part loop… and which would you rather learn, bits and pieces or the entire dictionary in 1 go….

The Infinite mana generation engine without anything to start

Situation #4C: Mirror Entity + Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid + 1 Other Elf Y; 0 mana in the pool
1 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Mirror Entity, Heritage Druid, and Other Elf Y; GGG
2 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; GG
3 - Use Symbiote#1’s ability; Bounce Symbiote and untap Heritage Druid; GG
4 - Play Symbiote#1; G
5 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
6 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid; GGG
7 - Use Symbiote #1’s ability; Bounce Symbiote and untap Heritage Druid; GGG
9 - Use Symbiote#2’s ability; Bounce Symbiote and untap Mirror Entity; GGG
10 - Play Symbiote #1+#2; G
11 - Use Mirror Entity ability to make everything a changeling; 0
12 - Use Heritage Druid’s Ability: Tap Symbiote x2 + Heritage Druid; GGG
13 - Use Both Symbiotes’ ability; Bounce both Symbiotes and untap Heritage Druid and Other Elf Y; GGG
14 - Play Symbiote #1+#2; G
At this point you have a mana left over, so do the Infinite Mana Engine with preperation...

---

And here's my old decklist, Mana needed reworking to make it less waste-able but loved the ESG and fetches thinning out the deck.
[deck]
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
3 birchlore ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
3 fyndhorn elves
4 llanowar elves
1 Jorgara Warcaller
3 priest of titania
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 Mirror Entity
4 glimpse of nature
4 summoner's pact
4 Living Wish

---Mana Base 17
3 forests
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Murmuring Bosk

SB
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 K Grip
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Terraston
1 Mirror Entity
1 Quiron Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Bojuku Bog
[/deck]

It fits my playstyle, and if you try if, it might fit yours. Once I put down my TES I'll probably get back the Elves and re-build a mirror entity centic elves with Green Sun's Zenith to bring it back to more modern playlists...

Tell me what you think.

Hello guys .its my first post here:)
Have u got any troubles against team america and whats the sideboard cards u use against them?
autumn's veil is a good choice?
What would u use if u had many team amercias to face in a tournament?