[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Apologies for the double post, but I figured someone would have replied between then and now. My list is pretty much finalized, with a few tweaks from what I posted here. The sideboard needs a bit of work yet, but that won't be done until I see what people are playing in the grinders a lot tomorrow night, since odds are that'll be able to give me a decent representation of the meta.

If anyone else here is going down and wants to meet up and talk shop, I'll be in khaki shorts and a plain red shirt tomorrow. Can't tell you what exactly of my packed options I'll be wearing Saturday, but if you scout around and see someone with a fully foiled out Nic Fit deck with 3 out of 4 Explorers Korean, that'd be me. Alternatively, you can look at the pairings board for Kevin McKee.

Hopefully I do well and I have a lot of stories to regale you all with when I return ... I'll definitely be keeping notes and I'll post a full report regardless of how well/not well I do.

I won't be there, since I'm from Denmark, but good luck with this great and funny deck :smile:

Look forward to the report.

- PollePotDK

@Arianrhod

I think the elf match up is bad.... however we can still win it...but is still bad... I run the list with white.., and I run 3 stp main, as well as 3 deeds, 2 ee...I guess i have always played with elves who doesn't give me time to set up...They usually go off turn 2-3-4.. which doesn't give me enough time to actually do anything relevant...Like deed, or other stuff.. The old list I used for junk had 8 discard , 4 targeted removal and 3 deed, and I still had problems with elf combo.... However, only a few people actually run elfcombo to make it a valid concern... I just don't think its as easy as people say it is...according to my experience...

Merfs should be a valid concern now... ANy tribal deck can beat nicfit with the sheer speed, specially with disruption.. but I still think this should be a specially good match up with my nicfit list...

I have tried the blue version and its quite interesting, specially that jace really does help the deck being a very good control card. It could win by it self, and could draw you answers..... Hence I really like this addition...

So I have been tinkering with a blue Nic Fit list. The moment I saw the deck I really liked it. A friend of mine plays a GBw list (jobdevries) so I wanted to try something different after completing my other legacy decks and since I find Gifts Ungiven an awesome card, blue was an easy choice. It also gives me the option of playing counters in the SB, which is quite handy vs combo.

// Lands (21)
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Fierce Empath
1 Trygon Predator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Grave Titan
1 Consecrated Sphinx

// Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Innocent Blood
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Karn liberated

// Sideboard (15)
4 Pithing Needle
4 Daze
3 Extirpate
3 Spell Pierce
1 Kitchen Finks

The deck is very nice to play as you have a lot of options with Gifts. Only downside compared to other lists is that it lacks some of the power and is somewhat slower. Any tips/comments are welcome. When browsing this topic I noticed Smother which was a card I'm going to consider instead of Go for the Throat, seems interesting anyway. Also I'm wondering if 4 GSZ's are really necessary or that I could better play three and add something else in that slot. Same goes for Karn, which might be better as a different planeswalker (although I found most Garruk's unimpressive in testing).

Here's the Day 2 meta breakdown...lots of RUG Delver and Reanimator

RUG Delver 32
Maverick 19
Reanimator 14
Esper Blade 10
Elves 7
UW Miracles 5
UW Blade 4
Merfolk 4
Sneak and Show 4
RU Delver 3
Mono Red 3
Goblins 3
Zoo 2
High Tide 2
Belcher 2
BW Blade 2
Affinity 2
Mono Blue Control 2
BUG Delver 1
Reanimator Tendrils 1
RWB Zombie Bombardment 1
BGW Hymn to Tourach 1
Cloudpost 1
Forgemaster/Metalworker 1
RUW aggro 1
ANT 1
Dredge 1


I'm curious what the BGW Hymn deck was, but looks like any Nic Fit didn't make it to day 2. Looked like a good day for Tsunami...

This past weekend, went to the CMT Legacy tournament in Kitchener. Had pretty good turnout considering it was a long weekend with 66 people. I basically took Qweerio's list because I felt the white splash didn't offer enough to warrant bad early game mana. Here's the list:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bayou
5 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Grave Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Carpet of Flowers

I finished in 11th place at 5-2. Beat Zoo, Burn, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and RUG Delver. Lost against Maverick and RUG Delver.

Felt like my loss against RUG Delver was just he had better draws than I did in the early game and I couldn't stabilize fast enough and that's fine. The Maverick player had Sigarda though and as soon as that came down, it was pretty much game over as the only out would be a Deed for five. He also had a Maze of Ith which was really annoying as I would only have one attacker out and couldn't get any damage in. Very frustrating.

I felt with my sideboard, I didn't need to worry much about the combo matchups. What I did struggle with though is that I would survive the initial turns on the combo matchups, but then we'd be in top deck mode and I realize that I have no finishers that I can tutor for so I'd end up only beating with 1/1s and 2/2s which could give them time to recover.

Changes to the deck:

I definitely feel that 8 fetchlands and 5 forests are incorrect. I feel that I'd like to add in a Karakas for reanimator/sneak and show decks and a Wasteland just for problem lands like Maze of Ith. Of course, I'd have to add in a couple of Crop Rotations to accommodate those changes.

I'm definitely taking out Kodama of the North Tree. I never played with it before and wanted to try it out. Problem with Kodama is that it's smaller than a Tarmogoyf and trades with Thrun and Thrun can regenerate… Probably replacing it with Deranged Hermit as 9 power of beaters is just pretty amazing and it's all spread out so if they only have one or two blockers, you can still get good damage through.

Liliana of the Veil was also a disappointment. I hardly wanted to use the +1 ability early since I never wanted to discard and the -2 ability wasn't that great against most decks as they always had a swarm of creatures. It was only really good against reanimator as they don't have anybody that has haste and they usually only have one creature on board at a time. It's also fairly taxing on the manabase early as you have to choose if you want GG or BB early on.

As for the sideboard, I think Engineered Explosives should be something like Damnation to take care of hexproof guys like Thrun and Sigarda.

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [R] Scrubland
2 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Savannah
4 [UNH] Forest
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [AVR] Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 [DDF] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [VI] Natural Order
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

I've been having success with this list. Took down a GP qualifier a while ago. It has amazing matchups across the board and people don't see Natural Order coming.

I don't understand why people play Grave Titan that costs 6 and can easily be dealt with, when you can play Natural Order for 4 and fetch Progenitus.

Jeet, if you have time, can you expand on your post. Particularly, sb strategies for some of the cookie cutter top decks.
Some specific observations from playing with different versions of this deck and the NO package are:

1) I ended up dropping Elspeth from my list which has 2 basic plains and a comparable fetch/dual suite. Does she come down reliably enough for you?

2) I ran 2ish Liliana's with my NO package and it felt about right. She compresses hands, gives edict effects, and is a natural discard for Progenitus. Was she in your list, and if so, what prompted cutting her.

3) 4x Thoughtseize seems harsh on the life totals given no md Finks and only 1 ooze (in that games can go quite long with this deck, though NOpro does give a combo finish). Obviously Jace TMS is one of the ultimate threats against this deck, but I could easily see a 2/2 split with Inquisition of Kozilek. It seems like you compensate for 0 pulses md with specifically using 4 seizes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by conboy31

Jeet, if you have time, can you expand on your post. Particularly, sb strategies for some of the cookie cutter top decks.
Some specific observations from playing with different versions of this deck and the NO package are:

1) I ended up dropping Elspeth from my list which has 2 basic plains and a comparable fetch/dual suite. Does she come down reliably enough for you?

2) I ran 2ish Liliana's with my NO package and it felt about right. She compresses hands, gives edict effects, and is a natural discard for Progenitus. Was she in your list, and if so, what prompted cutting her.

3) 4x Thoughtseize seems harsh on the life totals given no md Finks and only 1 ooze (in that games can go quite long with this deck, though NOpro does give a combo finish). Obviously Jace TMS is one of the ultimate threats against this deck, but I could easily see a 2/2 split with Inquisition of Kozilek. It seems like you compensate for 0 pulses md with specifically using 4 seizes?

---

1) I haven't had any problems casting Elspeth. I mostly fetch duals so I make sure I have WW to cast her. I also want WW for the hardcasted Sigarda (which has been amazing against sacrifice effects or stopping flyers).

2) I don't like Liliana unless you play her in a deck that doesn't lose anything by discarding cards, like Pox or Life from the loam. I don't see the need of killing my own Explorers with Liliana. She's overrated.

3) I used to run 3 Maelstrom Pulse main but went the discard route when people started playing more Show and Tell and Reanimator. A split between Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress also work in its place. I do like the extra discard combined with Natural Order since you can make sure the coast is clear for Progenitus/Sigarda to come online. Thoughtseize/Duress grabs Force of Will, where Inquisition doesn't; Thoughtseize also discards Progenitus if needed. It depends on the expected Metagame. You obviously don't want Thoughtseize in a Meta with Burn decks.

I do agree that Jace is a pain to deal with, so I side in Maelstrom Pulse and Choke to deal with it.

Edit:

Sideboarding:

Rug: Side out Thoughtseize, Natural Order package; Side in Choke, Pulse, Deed
Maverick: Side out Thoughtseize; Side in Deed, Pulse
Stoneforge: Side out Swords to Plowshares, Pernicious Deed; Side in Choke, Pulse
Reanimator: Side out Deed; Side in Graveyard Hate
Show and Tell: Side out Swords to Plowshares, Deed; Side in Surgical Extraction, Teeg
Storm: Side out Swords to Plowshares, Deed; Side in Leyline, Teeg, Surgical Extraction
Merfolk: Side out Thoughtseize; Side in Deed, Pulse
Burn: Side out Thoughtseize, Deed; Side in Leyline, Pulse

Pretty straight forward: take out worse cards in a particular matchup for better cards.

Alright folks, here's my report.

Left balls-early Friday morning to fly down from home (Bumfuck, Pennsylvania) to Philly, then to Atlanta from there. Note that I'd never flown before. Let's just say that my first flight was on a dinky little 32 (36?) seater that felt every possible little fluctuation imaginable...I was pretty much a mess by the time we landed in Philly. Luckily, the flight down to Atlanta was on a fairly good sized jet, which felt much, much safer to ride in. I proceeded to make my first misplay of the weekend as soon as we hit Atlanta: I saw a long-ass escalator with an equally long-ass staircase to the side of it, and due to my general dislike of escalators, I opted for the stairs. The college I went to is literally carved into the side of a mountain, so I'm used to stairs -- no big deal, right? Of course, I had neglected to consider that I was carrying two fairly heavy bags, and as a result, I was almost dead by the time I reached the top.

Reached the venue/hotel with no problems. Hotel was impressive to behold, although it ended up being closer to the side of tolerable as opposed to jaw-droppingly fantastic. The venue was underneath the hotel, but in the same building, since apparently the hotel in question has like embassies for ambassadors and more ballrooms than one hotel really needs to have. As a result, the venue was officially sweet. It was spacious, comfortable, and both air-conditioned and underground, which was pretty awesome considering it was a humid 106 degrees for pretty much the entire weekend. There was also a mall with a food court literally across the street, connected to the hotel by a covered bridge. This food court had a ton of options, including some of the sweetest city pizza I've ever had. Major props to that.

I got the blue version around for side events and was ready to jam some cards, but apparently all people wanted to do on Friday was grind. I was going to help a friend try to grind in (as I already had my 3 byes), but he ended up getting in late enough in the day that the last grinder had already fired (like 8:15ish), so that was out. Otherwise, I spent the day trading in a huge pile of stuff, which enabled me to finally get some fbb german duals. #Stoked. After durdling at the venue for a bit, we made some final changes to our decks based on what we were hearing from the room, and played some Cards Against Humanity before getting to bed at a decent hour.

The list I ran:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Fuck You
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Oblivion Ring

1x Swords to Plowshares

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Moat
1x Humility
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Path to Exile
1x Dismember
1x Angel of Despair


A savvy viewer will notice something glaringly wrong with this list.

You see, I learned a valuable lesson this weekend about getting to the venue early: don't pay attention to everything you hear. All I heard Friday was Gilded Drake, Gilded Drake, and still more Gilded Drake. Now, a few weeks previously, I'd had a really, really bad experience at the hands of Gilded Drake in a friend of mine's sideboard. He stole my Sun Titan with it, and then proceeded to beat me senseless with it, getting back his fucking Gilded Drake with every trigger he could (sometimes he'd bolt it, other times I'd have to block with it to live). Now, hearing that Gilded Drake was literally sold out of every dealer scared the shit out of me, and I over-reacted by putting more instant speed spot removal in my 75. This seems fine, until the event actually happened.

Rounds 1-3: Byes. Yay free wins. I wandered about the venue, looking at the decks, getting stuff signed, and birding friends. Round 3 I went over to the food court and grabbed some pizza, and got ready to play some magic. I also found a cluster of Nic Fit players who for some reason happened to be all playing within the same few tables of each other, and watched a hilarious Nic Fit mirror between the straight G/B version and a GBW version which had been styled off of my list. Unfortunately it ended up going to time, although if the GBW list had had literally one more turn, he would have won. I also saw somebody playing straight G/B paired up vs Belcher - unfortunately I'm pretty sure it was the guy's first tournament, since he forgot to shuffle in a GSZ (though no judge was called), as well as made a host of other misplays. He was also running Viridian Emissary, at which point I walked away. I wandered through in time to see that he had Deeded away the belcher player's gob tokens, but Belcher ripped a mana source to kill with its namesake instead, while the Nic Fit player had managed to avoid GSZing for artifact hate the turn previous (I knew he had it in his deck from watching him while he was shuffling). Derp.

This, along with more birding of more durdles throughout the weekend, has led me to the rather interesting conclusion that we are Death and Taxes. A friend of mine from New York state is something of a DnT savant, and has oft-complained that most DnT players are absolutely horrid -- they pick the deck up without reading forums, posting on forums, etc...mostly because they like the style of the deck or because they have a lot of the cards from standard or modern anyway. As a result, the deck doesn't really get the respect it deserves because there are so few who actually play it to its capabilities. I didn't get names from the two Nic Fit players I watched consistently throughout the day -- one had no idea what the Source was (I think he said he was mostly a limited player locally who borrowed the deck to play), and the other was a lurker, but doesn't post. I'm pretty sure the other 3-4 Nic Fit players that I saw, the ones who were just awful, have no idea how to play the game, let alone a deck as complicated as this.

Anyhow, Round 4: Maverick

Note that my notes are at home, so names won't appear here. If you really want the guys' names, I can edit later...don't think it matters though. I didn't play vs any "big names."

Game one I absolutely destroy him in the worst way possible. I Zenith for a fast Sigarda, and let her intimidate his board presence while Elspeth ticks up to ult in the background. He tried to push damage through with a pair of chunky Knights, but Elspeth's soldiers and some random dorks did a good job of chumping until she Emblemed. Then I drew a Pernicious Deed, and that was that. Elspeth ult + Deed is just patently unfair, and hilarious vs a deck like Maverick.

I board in my spot removal and the Angel of Despair, but take out Recurring Nightmare like a durdle. Misplay #2. Moat and Humility also come in, since with Elspeth I can break that game state while locking him out.

Game two he demolishes me. While g1 took like 30 minutes for me to grind him out, g2 took maybe 7. I kept a retarded hand with no fetches or basics, and he wastelands me into oblivion after chaining them through Knight of the Reliquary.

Game three, then, I board Nightmare back in like a good player (Nightmare + Angel of Despair is a ludicrously powerful engine, which in a grindy matchup like Maverick is not unlikely to be set up), and we go to work. He makes a fast board presence, and I Deed away his everything. I spin my Top for upwards of 5 turns, shuffling on at least two of them, and proceed to find nothing but lands. No business at all. With the clock ticking down and him having landed an Elspeth, I resign myself to playing for the draw, and achieve it, although only after he Armageddons me with Elspeth still in play. He immediately demands that I scoop him because the game was clearly won in his favor, which I patently refuse. I'm not inclined to scoop anyone that early in the tournament in the first place, and demanding that I scoop you is the fastest way to ensure that I don't. Luckily, this guy was the only asshole I played the entire weekend, so it was whatever.

3-0-1, for those keeping track at home.

R5: RUG

This dude was hilarious, and we had a ton of fun. He made a light poke at people who play Nic Fit as we were shuffling, wondering why anyone would ever play that deck since it goes to time so much. I shrugged noncommittally and said that it must take a special kind of person to play that deck. Naturally my opener had like Forest -> Explorer, so I got to troll him (the rest of the hand was fine, but I was really happy I got to troll). I led with that and jested with him a bit. I told him that it was okay because I rarely go to time, and we slung some cards. The game ended pretty quickly on the back of a Baneslayer, as tends to happen vs RUG.

I don't remember exactly what happened g2, other than that I lost. He had a weird hand where he actually played Gilded Drake and stifled its trigger just to have a clock on me. Naturally I removed it a turn later, but then he followed up with more clock and I flooded out.

Game three I put him in a really awkward board state really quickly involving Elspeth jumping a Fierce Empath with Sun Titan in play ground-pounding. He dug ferociously for Gilded Drake, which he found literally one turn after when he needed it. He played it anyway and took my Titan, but I just flew over his head with his Drake and Elspeth'd Fierce Empath FTW. The round ended with like 15 minutes left on the timer, and we parted amicably.

4-0-1

//Aside: people play this deck frelling slowly. I was able to find people that were playing Nic Fit by looking for matches that went to time. The RUG player is right in that the deck can have issues with time, but I'm of the opinion after this weekend that it's because people that play the deck in tournaments don't actually practice with the deck first, and don't play it in enough events. You NEED to play the deck a lot to avoid going to time, and you have to know your personal list inside out so you can minimize the time it takes to tutor. The Maverick matchup in r4 is the only round where I went to time (spoilers!), so it's plenty possible to not go to time constantly.

One of the Nic Fit players (the lurker) had the unfortunate pairing of one of my local friends, which was really awkward for him. Lance has played against my decks a lot, and the fact that he had based his list off of my list directly actually really played against him here, since Lance knew all of my tricks by heart. It didn't help that Lance told me afterward that his deck had drawn like a Greek god that round (he was on UW stoneblade with Restoration Angel). I felt bad, and spotted the Nic Fit duo a few tables over. I went and hung out for a bit, and found out that the other guy was 4-1. So far team Nic Fit wasn't doing too bad.

R6: Metalworker.

Christ. Pretty sure I led off with land, Top, go, while he leads off with like land, mox diamond, Chalice on 1. I made a land and frown at my hand, while he drops a Grim Monolith and PASSES. Now, I've played with and against that deck to know well enough that something bad is going to happen next turn, so I pulse his Monolith next turn as opposed to the Chalice that I wanted to kill so I could get Therapy + Explorer active (had both). He frowns, draws, and passes. This gives me all the info I need for my line of play, which is to say that I topped into Vindicate, killed his land, then next turn Zenith'd for E.Wit, to Vindicate his other land the next turn. Then I Deeded to wrath away his moxen, and he scooped.

I snap-board Humility and Moat, as well as the spot removal just in case of metalworker, but it ends up not mattering.

His deck implodes on him, while I make it worse with discard and more mana disruption via Pulse and Deed.

5-0-1.

I'm off to a really strong start, and I'm feeling pretty good about myself. I only needed to win one more round to probably day 2 (the head judge said repeatedly throughout the day that X-2-1 would likely day two due to the lowish attendance of 900ish people). As it turned out, you still needed X-2, because of how the math ended up -- no X-2-1s made it. But I didn't know that at the time, so I assumed I only had to win one more. I lost track of both of the other Nic Fit players around this time, so I don't know how they ended up. Obviously neither of them day 2'd, but I don't know when they lost out or to what.

Round 7: Maverick.

Now the wheels start to fall off.

This round starts with both of us getting deck checked, which I'm faintly concerned about since my deck is really, really foiled, and I know that some of the foils in particular are rather warped. Luckily the deck check comes back fine, and as the judge walks away he thanks me for the coolest deck he's seen all day. I'm a little annoyed since that means my opponent now knows that I'm not playing something standard, but I shake it off and play cards. He shuffle as fast as we can and get underway at like 40 minutes on the clock, with an 8 minute extension.

We had three really back and forth games which were all good. As it turned out, this guy's list was sporting a really annoying addition in the sideboard in the form of Dauntless Escort. I ended up having to Deed him to get rid of it, and then I could have done it again the next turn with Eternal Witness. However, he played a Scavenging Ooze, and I died. G3 I successfully got mana screwed for the first time, and although I put up a fight, he still got me.

5-1-1.

Round 8: RUG.

I was sitting next to the guy playing RUG in r7, so I knew going in what I was in for. The guy was handicapped, and while he was a perfectly nice individual to play against, his handicap made some things (like cutting) really awkward, and ate up a lot of time off the clock. This was the only round I even came close to time in other than the r4 maverick (we ended up not even needing our extension in r7).

I look at my opener in g1, and snap keep. It has pretty much everything I want, with Therapy + Green Sun into business. Misplay #3 and #4: I play a basic Swamp instead of using the fetch in my hand (which is my only green source), and instead of calling Stifle on the resolved Therapy (aka the card that beats my hand because Verdant is my only green), I call Delver for some godforsaken stupid fucking reason, which doesn't even hit. My opponent is good enough to not give me a chance to fetch, and I eventually crack it just to get the Stifle out of his hand. I believe it was this game where I managed to crack a Rector, which finds a Deed and wraths his Goyfs. A few turns later I find a green mana, but it's vastly too late at that point and I die to Monguise.

G2 Baneslayer. 'Nough said.

G3 he stone-cold nut hands me. When I'm not misplaying, these are the only kinds of hands where I lose to RUG: the sequence was something like Goose, Delver, Daze Stifle Daze Daze Pierce Pierce Force. He had one land the entire game, and nothing but business off of every draw.

5-2-1.

Pretty tilted now, but I figure that I can still win the last round and squeak in to day two.

R9: Maverick. Again.

By this time I'm really sick of seeing Maverick. G1 looks very similar to G2 of R4, where I just get chain-wastelanded out of the game and can't find any of my damn basics.

G2 I have nobody to blame but myself for. I Therapy him, seeing like Stoneforge, Thalia, triple Hierarch. I flashback on a Rector, getting Humility (Misplay #5) and taking his triple Hierarch. I had a Top and a few shuffles floating around, and since Humility is in the abstract the most powerful thing you can do to Maverick, I feel pretty good about that decision at the time. In retrospect, though, I should've just Moated. It would have done the same thing I wanted Humility to do but better, and it would have given me the chance to get the Angel of Despair engine going (I had Angel in hand already with like 6 lands in play). It also would have let me find Humility later with a second Rector. Instead, after a few shuffles of not finding anything more than chumpers, my opponent nat-draws into a Jitte, and proceeds to push my face in while I top into nothing but lands.

5-3-1, for like 220th place or something awful like that.

Really disappointed in my finish, especially after I had such an amazing start. It stings a little that I only have myself to blame for it, too, and it's exactly these kinds of mistakes that's keeping Nic Fit from being regarded as a "real" deck. I had the chance to day 2 in my grasp and I just blew it. No excuses.

A few thoughts on the deck, as opposed to my play with it:

-I love the Angel of Despair tech in the board. I never played vs Sneak or Reanimator (which I was happy about), but just HAVING it felt good. It also definitely came in for the Maverick matchups, and although it only happened once or twice, again, just having the threat of Angel + Nightmare in the deck as a lategame attrition trump was sweet. Didn't play against any 'blade decks, but if I had, it would have definitely come in there as well for the same reason. Maverick and Blade are long, grindy games, and having that powerful of an engine in the deck is a good feeling.

-Spot removal and spot discard are just fucking terrible in this deck unless your meta has specific constraints. I've realized this before, and I don't know why I thought I'd try it again. The spot removal in the board I can blame on my terror of Gilded Drake, but I don't know why I thought Thoughtseizes were a good idea. They never did anything all day, and would have been better as actually anything. This deck wants more powerful effects to go with its big mana, and wasting room with 3-4 instant-speed spot removal that only hits creatures as opposed to more Pulses or Vindicates is a horrible idea.

-Maverick needs to be improved. I think that if I had put in a Perish and a Virtue's Ruin instead of the Path and the Dismember, I would have been perfectly fine, but now that I don't have a GP looming in front of me, I kind of want to experiment a bit. How does the idea of 2x Sword of Feast and Famine sound to you guys? That would give us another trump in control mirrors, be effective as both a more efficient clock and provide additional discard vs combo decks, and be far and away the best sword vs Maverick through protections, emptying their hand of options, and allowing us to cheat on mana (Deed mainphase 1, crack it during their turn). Obviously the fact that they cost 3 is kind of awkward since usually vs Maverick we're Deeding for that number, but at least we can always get it back with Sun Titan later. It's just an idea....I like things that have a wide range of applications for most of my board, with a few very specific powerful bullets for certain matchups.

-Moat is moving back maindeck. Maverick has largely dropped Elspeth and Mindcensor. They can still kill it with QPM, but it'll buy time. I also saw a pisston of tribal and dredge day one, and I would have definitely appreciated it maindeck. Hell, when I set off Rector vs Canadian Thresh in r8 it would have been a total blow-out, since he didn't have any Delvers, and would've stopped me from dying to Mongeese. I like the theory of having it in the board, but I like the practice of having it in the maindeck better. The other Thoughtseize spot is probably going to be Thragtusk when M13 comes out, because that thing is going to be a ridiculous house for this deck, and that way I can not drop a Baneslayer, because those things literally win me most of my games.

-Ooze was disappointing, again. I figured that it has utility vs everything, so I put it back in. But, like Thrun did when I kept trying him a few months ago, it just disappointed me every time I saw it. Even when I Zenith'd for it, I was saddened by it. The deck just has too many basics to run it effectively. There's not enough green mana, and the deck really wants to be tapping out most of the time. I'm not sure what this slot is going to become...there's a whole heaping pile of options. If I'm trying the Swords, I think I want it to be a creature....probably something for GSZ. I'd also like for it to be cheap and Sun Titan-able. Not sure what that means at the moment. Maybe Ohran Viper? Trololol? I literally don't even know. It'll come to me with time, I suppose.

Day two, I did a pair of win-a-box events. I played the blue list in the first, and got face-stomped by Enchantress, because apparently someone wanted to take that to a side event for reasons unknown to me. I gave it a good try with Deeds and postboard Mana Leak blowout on his first Replenish, but naturally he drew into another one and then I just died.

The second win-a-box, my friend Lance played the blue list, and beat combo elves and RUG with it (I scooped him in the second round since I didn't like my odds in a RUG mirror in the finals [we'd switched decks...I was playing his RUG deck while he played the blue Nic Fit]). While it obviously needs more tweaking, the deck seemed perfectly viable. I'm not sure what I think about the Smothers -- pretty sure those are going to end up becoming some other spot removal....possibly Go for the Throats. They're nice to kill manlands, but they're eugh vs everything else.

I then went and finished my dealer-ing, which resulted in me getting at final tally 2 German Bayous, an Italian Bayou that I can trade up for German through a friend of mine later, a German Savannah, and enough Guru basics such that once the last two come in from Starcity, my whole deck will be Guru'd. Yes, I am a degenerate, I know. One of the vendors had a Japanese foil Academy Rector that I wanted, but by the time I saw it in their case I was already tapped out for the weekend =( Also picked up a foil Angel of Despair, because I think I'm going to keep that tech around.

All in all, a pretty good weekend. Could have been better, for sure, but no matter how disappointed I am in my decisions for the event, I still did pretty damn well. a 5-0-1 start is nothing to sneeze at, and if I had kept winning instead of going full retard pants-on-head mode, I would've have done pretty well on day two, I believe. Especially if I played vs Mary Jacobson....mmmm....zoo. Feed me. Pretty sure Sam Black's zombie deck is patently incapable of beating Pernicious Deed and Extirpate, too. But yeah, good times, learned lessons, got pimp things, etc etc. Hope you enjoyed reading about it as much as I enjoyed living it, lol.

Been waiting for your report, thanks for putting it up! Sad to see that you missed on play mistakes, but those happen to everyone especially when you add in a travelling tournament to the mix.

It's interesting that you couldn't get more worth out of Ooze considering the creature/grave dependent heavy matches you played, being Maverick and RUG, but can see how he's hard to ramp up when playing 3 colors.

What about Ulvenwald Tracker? I saw in either the Maverick or Rock thread that it was a house in a tournament, since at GSZ=1 they assume you're going for a mana dork. Here he is capable of abusing Baneslayer to get removal plus lifelink, not to mention the other fatties we run. I think I just have an unhealthy fascination with this card...especially since if he lands with Baneslayer or Sigarda out then you were probably winning anyway.

My fear about Swords against Maverick is that they run Pridemage, and the sword would be destroyed pretty quickly since none of our trump enchantments (save Moat and Ring) can truely be destroyed by Pridemage. You could try the route of [card]Visara the Dreadful[/card] if you can manage the BBB, who would require double Mom activation to allow creatures to attack (response to pro-black, kill it) and otherwise she flies over Moat. Angels+Gorgon.dec? Neither of these suggestions would be anywhere near an efficient clock as a Sword though.

There's always the Living Death sweeper.......:P

You mention that targetted discard in Thoughtseize was useless. Would you run Hymn in its place, or just Vindicate and Maelstrom or other utility?

Tracker + Baneslayer is hilarious, but probably more viable for something like modern. I could see it getting out of hand really quickly, if it ever did happen...but I'm inclined to think that it's too cute.

The Thoughtseize spots are being used to bring the Moat back maindeck, and probably for Thragtusk so I can keep both Baneslayers (was planning on dropping one, but they're just too damn good). The open slot from Ooze is the questionable one. I could see it being a PILE of things is the problem: could be a 2nd Pulse or Vindicate, could be a 2nd Swords to Plowshares, could be a cheapish green creature of some kind, like Ohran Viper, could be a Faith's Fetters so I have both that and Ring open as enchantment removal options, could be a Diabolic Intent....the list goes on and on.

I think Hymn needs to stay in the pure G/B build. I have a ton of WW costs, and I really don't want to have to worry about BB ever until the later stages of the game if I can help.

Something else to keep in mind RE Ooze: people play removal. He got either Bolted or Swords immediately upon resolution, which severely limited his usefulness. I think he got to eat like two things the whole day. Vs Canadian it's especially bad, because they're usually sandbagging a Bolt for if you resolve something obnoxious (or just to throw at you when you're close to being dead), and due to their tempo, you rarely have the green mana available to put into him to get him out of bolt range in resp. to the bolt. It's just awkward and stupid, like Thrun.

RE Qasali vs Swords. If they're blowing their Qasalis on Swords, they aren't using them on Moat or Curse of Death's Hold, which I am personally FINEEEEE with.

Another first place at a local event (aprox 20-25 people).

2-1 vs. Team Italia
2-1 vs. Reanimator
2-0 GU Infect
2-0 Maverick

Using the following:


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Tsunami
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth


I am now up to my 3rd or 4th 1st place finishes this month and I am very pleased with the performance. I still don't understand why nobody plays Primeval Titan as their finisher. A GSZ @6 always nets me at least a 6/6 Trample and the Volrath Tower engine, making it virtually impossible for my opponent to find outs at that point.

Christmas that's a lot of removal. Do you have troubles with Liliana? And how do you like Garruk?

Volrath's Tower looks interesting, I like it. Have you thought of putting in Shriekmaw for constantly recurring removal?

Arianrhod, thanks for the report.

When I saw your second tweaked blue list, I sleeved it up almost immediately. I have been playing BUG Control for some time, but it wasn't explosive enough.

I didn't like the Smother and used a Putrefy I had lying around, which was quite good so far. I especially love Baleful Strix - when testing against Griselbrand, he posed a serious problem. He also protects Jace like a champ. Together with Recurring Nightmare, it's an awesome draw engine. The Sideboard works fine as well, the Extirpates did a lot of work. Playing blue but no counters maindeck gives you a lot of bluff potential, too. I consider going to GP Ghent, and this deck suits my playstyle very well.

@Arianrhod: Thanks for the report. One question about your SB. When you sideboard your Carpet of Flowers in, do you take out your Veteran Explorers or is it only for extra ramp vs Blue decks?

/PollePotDK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UseLess

So I have been tinkering with a blue Nic Fit list. The moment I saw the deck I really liked it. A friend of mine plays a GBw list (jobdevries) so I wanted to try something different after completing my other legacy decks and since I find Gifts Ungiven an awesome card, blue was an easy choice. It also gives me the option of playing counters in the SB, which is quite handy vs combo.

// Lands (21)
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Fierce Empath
1 Trygon Predator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Grave Titan
1 Consecrated Sphinx

// Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Innocent Blood
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Karn liberated

// Sideboard (15)
4 Pithing Needle
4 Daze
3 Extirpate
3 Spell Pierce
1 Kitchen Finks

The deck is very nice to play as you have a lot of options with Gifts. Only downside compared to other lists is that it lacks some of the power and is somewhat slower. Any tips/comments are welcome. When browsing this topic I noticed Smother which was a card I'm going to consider instead of Go for the Throat, seems interesting anyway. Also I'm wondering if 4 GSZ's are really necessary or that I could better play three and add something else in that slot. Same goes for Karn, which might be better as a different planeswalker (although I found most Garruk's unimpressive in testing).

---

Hey man. Good to see that someone else has taken up the blue cause :). Just a few things from my own experience (take them with a pinch of salt - I imagine most of them are just down to playstyle / personal preference :)). I tried to keep the blue splash as light as possible, so I only played 1 island (for explorer ---> gifts) and 1 tropic (to fetch). I would also try and fit in one more land. The deck is more mana hungry, and you are right in that it tends to play more like BUG landstill than Nic fit.

I think my tutour package was 3tops, 3gifts, 2 GSZ (the extra explorers, as the deck tends to get more explorer reliant). If you view all of these as tutours, then you are even more tutour heavy then more straight up BG nic fit. I still had a GSZable finished though (hermit), which also had nice gifts/nightmare interactions.

I would highly recommend the white 'splash'. Making sun titans in legacy feels like cheating. Also getting 1 couple of rectors is sweet. Making and blowing deeds at instant speed is honestly 1000% percent better than them seeing them coming. As well as getting Oring which again has good titan/rector interaction (although not deed - I actually changed to faiths fetters simply because it has a higher mana cost because of deed :)).

I love the idea of snapcaster, but I sided one for a bit vs combo, to enable relevent gifts plies, but it was too slow.

Also - I found a lot of graveyard hate to be annoying after the board, so its good to have a more pro-active plan. I chopped and changed a lot, but 3xfinks off the board is good and board out gifts and just go beatdown is good. As is birthing pod, as it enables you to get up the chain without using the grave, getting ridiculous value along the way :).

I dont really like planeswalkers (I think im the only one in the world...) so I would drop them. They seem quite... independent of the rest of the deck (but maybe thats just me :)). Maybe they are simply powerful enough to sit at the top.

As a general note, is this blue splash enough of a difference to make a new thread? I think of the deck as rock gifts rather than nic fit. It just imports the explorer/therapy engine... I wouldnt mind writing a primer :)

The Spanish Tunnel King

Okay -- couple things:

@Qweerios: You continue to prove that you're the master of straight G/B. One question, though -- your list can obviously grind just about anything out, but do you ever problems winning within time? I mean, Titan -> Stronghold/Tower is obviously nuts, but does it take too long to come online/to grind someone out sometimes? I don't have any trouble winning within time, but that's also because I have something like 4 more finishers than you....6 if you count the pair of Elspeths. That's my only concern with your list...beyond that, well, we've had this conversation before =)

@Wortwelt: Thanks! Yeah, as noted, the Smothers are a trap. They seem much better on paper than they actually are in real life. Whenever I end up cutting something else from the deck that's been underperforming, I plan on putting the 3rd Baleful Strix in. It's just so, so good. And as you said, it's hilarious vs Griselbrand because they really don't want to attack into it. Also, I haven't got to do this yet, but if they Show and Tell a Griselbrand and you put out Consecrated Sphinx, I'm pretty sure you just win at life. Keep us posted on how your testing is going / give us a report from Ghent if you go.

@PollePotDK: It depends on the matchup. Vs Stoneblade I tend to board out 1-2 Explorers when I board in Carpets. But vs Canadian Thresh, I leave all four in, giving me 7 1-mana accelerators. It just depends on how many basics your opponent has and how well they can use them. Note that if you run Tsunami, it's okay to leave Explorer in more against the Stoneblade and High Tide decks (the two primary culprits). But it's kind of a gamble, because you're really hoping to see a Tsunami early, and to resolve it.

@Spanish Tunnel King: This is a problem that was realized earlier in the thread. This archetype is very reminiscent of Survival, in that there are a whole pile of different iterations, but they're all fueled by the same engine. While eventually I would love to see separate threads for the major subarchetypes, I don't think that we're there yet. The deck is still in its relative infancy (just over 1 yr old now), and frankly, each version stands to learn from each other version at this point. Ie, some random GSZ creature that Qweerios digs up for G/B might see play in my GBW. Or Tao's GBR might have an innovation for your GBU. They aren't so divergent that they can't learn from each other as yet. I think that eventually that will happen -- I know that the Bant, Ooze, and Vengevine Survival all had their own threads at the height of Survival. For now, though, I think it's best that we all stay here.

I do think we need to update the primer in the first post, though -- it's getting a little bit dated now. I'd say we should plan it out a bit and work with Tao to get it updated in the middle of the month...give Ghent a chance to happen, and also Thragtusk, which I think is going to be the nuts for the deck...I think every color combination is going to want one of those. RE Ghent, I'm sure Michael Thiel will be there, and he's been running the deck for as long as a few people in this thread (Tao, Qweerios, myself, Conboy I think) or possibly longer. Pretty sure he doesn't post here, though, unless I'm just completely oblivious. But yeah -- planning for now is fine, but I wouldn't revise the primer until after Ghent at the soonest.

@Arianrhod
Thanks for the report, too bad you didn't make day two.

I'm still playing GBw version and I'm constantly tweaking my deck. As of right now, I'm pretty happy with it although I'd love to fit in academy reactor into the deck but I can't make it work, also I'm not sure if it's needed

Been playing against Pox, affinity, burn, UR delver, maverick, reanimator and against these i have been doing very good. The only exception would be reanimater g1, as I only run 4 discard MD it gets too hard sometimes.

I'm going to take this deck to a farily large tournament that will take place in 3 weeks and I'm looking forward to it. Will do a tournament report after

Only problem so far is to determinate how well my deck do against combo decks like ant, high tide etc. As I haven't had any testing done at all against those decks I don't know how to play correctly and whether I should make additional sideboard changes or not.

Here's how my list looks like:

CREATURES (15)
1 Sun Titan
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dryad Arbor
ENCHANTMENTS (5)
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Pernicious Deed
SORCERIES (11)
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
INSTANTS (5)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
ARTIFACTS (3)
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Batterskull
LANDS (21)
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy
SIDEBOARD
4 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Duress
1 Baneslayer Angel

I recently replaced Grave Titan with Primeval Titan. I love that Primeval Titan is a GSZ target and the phyrexian tower/volrath's stronghold combo is supersweet.

Very happy with the one of Enlightened Tutor. It has very good targets in my deck. Let's you grab Choke/Crypt/canonist as well which is huge.

Batterskull is okay and I rather play with it than Baneslayer Angel because of the E.tutor. The deck needs more fliers though, it's a hard call actually.. maybe the angel should have this slot instead

4 Discards MD. I do not think any GBw version should run more than 4 discard MD(cabal therapy that is). We have so much mana to use and I hate drawning a duress or thoughtseize turn 14 when you have 10+ lands. Feels like there are better cards to spend your mana on than late discard. Obviously they are great if you get them in your opener, but that's it. 4 Cabal Therapy is enough I'd say

Another card that all GBw version should run is Sun Titan. This card is just too good in this deck.. i might actually add a fierce empath only because of sun titan

@Arianrhod

I don't remember the last time I went to "time", so I guess thats a good thing. It usually goes like this: discard + removal until 7 lands then GSZ for Titan then win with ease in the next 3-5 turns. A lot of my opponents, however, just scoop when they realize that the Volrath Tower engine is nearly impossible to dismantle with a witness somewhere. I also win a great deal of games with just massive discard and Ooze.

In my defense, as far as having less finishers than you goes, I think Garruk is more of a finisher than Elspeth, and Kodama + Prime Titan are both tutorable via 4 GSZ.

@Claymore

I haven't tried Shriekmaw yet but I have considered him before. However, I think Fleshbag Marauder is a better meta choice ATM considering all of the Grisselbrands running about. If I ever put him in, he would replace Lily. I am not fond of her +1 and I could really need more targeted removal and a high casting cost 3/2 Fear body.

I won't re-explain how strong Primal Hunter is in this deck as I already gave thorough explanations earlier in this thread. I think they are scattered before and after I posted my first tournament win with the Primeval Titan (1st place at l'Imaginaire's 1k tournament). In short, hes a sweeper-proof 3/3 token pooper that will make you draw 6 cards.

Any thoughts on Restoration Angel? She would be great with various CiP creatures such as Witness, Harmonic Sliver, Finks, Baloth, Thragtusk, Hermit, Titans (win-more?), or the aforementioned Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder. She has a healthy 4 CMC and enables a ton of tricks. Hah, she can even be considered a sac outlet for Percy!

EDIT: Would evoking Shriekmaw then flashing Angel grant you 2 removal and 2 evasive bodies for 6 mana?

@Qweerios -- I guess you're luckier with your opponents than I am, then, because my opponents always make me play it out even when I have the game completely wrapped up. I actually glossed over PHunter...he is in fact quite beastly. I'm starting to think that him and Ooze are arguably the two greatest strengths of running straight GB, as a tricolor list can't reliably support either of them. That said, I still prefer the way the tricolor lists play, and the increased range of options that they have ... but GB does have things going for it as well. I still say it's mostly personal preference, and there isn't really a difference of viability from color to color.

@litenkatt -- Stack-based combo decks can't really tolerate having their things extracted through various means. Discard -> Extirpate is brutally good vs those decks, as long as you know what to prioritize taking.

IMO if you put in Empath, put in a Kokusho as well for the combo with Nightmare. It's a lot more useful than most give it credit for, especially since you can punch for 5 and then drain for 5 to surprise-kill people sometimes. Also of relevance is that Kokusho's drain is life loss, which means it gets around Glacial Chasm, Solitary Confinement, etc...corner cases, I'll grant, but they add up. That said, I don't think you really need to worry about Empath -> Kokusho. The way your list is set up, you should be fine with the two Titans.

I don't like the one E.Tutor + 2 Top configuration. I get that you don't probably want a 3rd Top because you can just Tutor for it, but I'd rather not use your one-of Tutor for a Top. Top's just so good in this deck that I really think you want 3...and then you still have your tutor for Batterskull, Nightmare, or emergency Deed.

Dryad Arbor is awful in most lists. We aren't Maverick who can abuse the living hell out of it with Scryb Ranger. It dies to Deed constantly, and for every instance where Zenithing for 0 is correct (why the hell wouldn't you save it for an Explorer instead, exactly?) there's another instance where it's in your hand or you draw it, and it comes into play tapped, screwing you out of a play that turn. Replace it with an actual land IMO.

Thrun and Ooze have both disappointed me constantly whenever I tried them. Your individual mileage may vary, but I'd keep a close eye on Ooze in particular. Thrun is at least good vs blue control since he can't be countered. Ooze is a trap for tricolor Nic Fit decks IMO, since you're rarely going to have the green mana to take advantage of him, and he dies to common Deed activations -- esp. in your list with the full playset of Deeds +1.

I also personally think that the full playset of Swords is a little bit much, but it depends on your expected meta. If there's going to be tons of Maverick and Delver of various types, go nuts. I'd rather have more threats, more sweep, or more tutoring as opposed to spot removal, but having one or two main can definitely come in handy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Qweerios

EDIT: Would evoking Shriekmaw then flashing Angel grant you 2 removal and 2 evasive bodies for 6 mana?

---

Yes, if you flash in the Angel with the Sacrifice trigger on the stack it does.

So i've been tinkering with the GWB Rector list and i'm thinking about taking it to a GPT this weekend, here's my list for reference:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
3 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Fierce Empath
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Sun Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Eternal Witness
2 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Grave Titan

// Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares


I'm still tinkering about a solid killcon, that can be easily fetched, atm i'm running 2x Fierce Empath + 3x GSZ to find them, so i can chain into either Kokusho for combokill, Sun Titan for board control or Grave Titan for a hard to get rid off kill-con, but i'm wondering if it's really needed to play 3 6-drops and/or if there are any other viable killcons, that are solid finishers, but relatively easy to find.

Also on the sideboard, there are 3 extra Rector targets:
Moat - for the aggro matchup
Choke - for the blue matchup
LotV - for the graveyard matchup
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers for the blue matchup

aswell as extra discard (4 + 4 MD) vs combo
surgical vs graveyard/combo
and some extra removal just in case i run into some decks that really have too many threats (Zoo, Maverick, more low costed removal vs RUG)

The suspected Metagame is probably a fair amount of RUG, a couple reanimators, a few Sneak & Shows, a decent amount of Stoneblade and Maverick, and possibly some Merfolk + more random decks.

Any idea's for some last changes?

Okay --

First of all, don't make the same mistakes I have. Let's start here:

1: Moat. Move this maindeck. I tried it in my board for the GP, and was really, really disappointed in that decision. Some matchups like RUG and Maverick you can't just run it out there and win the game, but if you're smart with it, it's an incredibly powerful tool. Ie if RUG has a Goyf or two and a Goose, Moat is absurdly good. If they have Delvers, obv. you don't go for Moat in that case. There will be too many times you want this main for you to have it in the board. Switch it with Humility. Humility is a total blowout vs Sneak/Show and Reanimator, while also being useful vs elf combo and Maverick as long as you have a way to break the parity of the card (ie assembling the combo with Curse of Death's Hold, though this is hard to do). Think of it this way -- you're a creature deck at your core. People will probably board Humility in VERSUS YOU. Don't next-level yourself by playing it maindeck. Your deck is dramatically more broken than most other fair decks as far as its creatures go. Only bring in Humility when you're crippling your opponent worse than it's crippling you.

2: No Recurring Nightmare. In a build with Rector and Kokusho, this is absurd. Cut the Grave Titan for it. Nightmare is every bit as bomby as Grave Titan is.

3: You only need one Fierce Empath ever. You go for Sun Titan as your first Empath target, and then sac it to Therapy, Nightmare, or Tower, then drop Titan, bringing back Empath to grab Kokusho. Cut the 2nd copy. Add a 22nd land with it -- I'd recommend a Plains. Sometimes you'll be going nuts with Explorer + Tower and you'll have a Plains in hand, which will lock you out of dropping a t2 Baneslayer or Sigarda. Also, Rishadan Port is a card, as is Wasteland. Having extra white sources in a build that's running Sigarda and Baneslayer is important.

4: You don't need a solid wincon. You have plenty already. Baneslayer and Sigarda will win you probably 2/3s of your games by themselves, with the rest being Deed blowouts, Titan, Kokusho looping, and so on. Elspeth + anything becomes a solid wincon when you need it to be, although if there's any question at all, focus on grinding your opponent out by making babies and ulting her. Elspeth emblem + Deed = won game vs almost any fair deck in the format.

5: I'd recommend adding a Leyline of Sanctity to your board in place of the Moat. You don't want to lose to some random asshole playing burn, and Sanctity has other uses vs most combo decks, Pox, Deadguy, and other fringe decks. It's not really an allstar vs the tier decks, but it does enough vs the tier two decks that it's worth including. You can also board it in vs SneakShow to nullify their Misdirections on your discard.

6: I'd shave the Leyline of the Void and 1x Thoughtseize for 2x of any combination of Cranial Extraction and/or Memoricide. Extraction effects are good vs Sneak, Reanimator, and Stoneblade, as well as any kind of grindy attrition-control deck like ThopterSword. Being able to take your opponent's best card out of the equation is pretty awesome. Stoneblade without Jaces is much, much less scary, for example.

7: Maybe. I would at least consider shaving the Choke in favor of a Chains of Mephistopheles. Chains is the nut high vs reanimator, Sneak, and HighTide, while still having utility vs other decks (especially blue ones with Brainstorm). It can sometimes be awkward due to how we tend to use Top lategame (essentially cheating on our next draw step), but if you hold extra lands in your hand you can get around that. Your mileage will vary -- I like it personally, but it's a little meta dependent, and it requires you to play it in a specific way. Depending on when your GPT is you might have trouble finding one and/or learning how to use it.

Some valid points, i mainly figured a mainboard Moat would've been overkill, but you're probably right.

I really thought i had a Recurring Nightmare in the deck, i'll change that right away.
Also, good point on the Empaths, aswell as the sideboard matters, problem is i have some leyline incoming next week, but probably too late for this weekend. Chains i will probably not be able to get in time either, but i can give it a shot.

I'm not actually to fond of the Cranial Extraction/Memoricide plan, but i suppose i can give it a shot, against what exactly would you board them in? Control MU's with Jace as main kill-con? Non BurningWish combo decks?

This would bring the Mainboard to:
-1 Fierce Empath
-1 Grave Titan
-1 Humility
+1 Recurring Nightmare
+1 Moat
+1 Plains

and the sideboard to
-1 Humility
-1 Leyline of the Void
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Leyline of Sanctity (if i can find it)
+1 Memoricide
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles (if i can find it also)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Qweerios ...I actually glossed over PHunter...he is in fact quite beastly. I'm starting to think that him and Ooze are arguably the two greatest strengths of running straight GB, as a tricolor list can't reliably support either of them. That said, I still prefer the way the tricolor lists play, and the increased range of options that they have ... but GB does have things going for it as well. I still say it's mostly personal preference, and there isn't really a difference of viability from color to color.

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Primal Hunter is indeed a great plus for running two colors, however, I don't think card selection is the greatest selling point of BG Nic Fit. 2 colored lists don't get their manabase disrupted by RUG or Maverick, tricolored do. Wastelands only slow me down, they don't knock half of my hand out. The main strength of BG is that Maverick, RUG, DnT, Goblins, Merfolk are not favorable matchups, they are byes. I think I could easely add Fierce Empath + Kokusho to my list and get an even better engine going when my Titan fetches Volrath Tower. However, I don't really see the point since my opponent usually doesnt have much of a board or a hand by the time I get to GSZ for 5 or 6.

I think that if you are going to play GBw, do it for the Rector package in the same way that you would play GBu for Gifts, not for the Baneslayers, not for the Sun Titan, and not for all the other appealing jank...

I have played GBw Nic Fit for nearly half of my Nic Fit playtime and I have a question for the forum:

What do you need a third color(white) for? What does the third color solve that BG cannot?

@Qweerios: I'm playing GBW and that is for swords and Sigarda, but I latelely agree that straight GB would be more consistent and white doesn't solve the same problems GB have.
Now I'm testing the blue version, and I have to say that is the most exciting of qll nic fit combinations I have tested. I don't like Gifts too much, just being more graveyard dependant and hateable. The card advantage that blue offers is just sick. Coiling Oracle and Baleful Strix, for ramping and stalling, then brainstorm and fact or fiction for a real card quality and advantage, and Jace, absolutely nuts in Nic Fit. Then, consecrated shpinx, just stops almost all flyings (except for emrakul and griselbrand), and the card draw it offers is the most broken thing you can play. It is so easy to find the correct piece or answer with the blue version that I am going to put it on work.

@Qweerios

Well I've played with the Gbw list for quite some time and have topped 8 with it... but have never played Gb since, honestly speaking, I'm never comfortable without white in any list...As I am also a junk/deadguy and maverick player.White is my color as well..

My main purpose for white was swords to plowshare and versatility.. Rector added some help and utility...and again, swords to plowshares is a must in my list...I also ran 2 ee. just to add versatility of mass removal, to avoid needles...

However it is true that if you want consistency Gb might be the best way to go... I have constantly beaten RUg with 3 color.. its quite an easy matchup, Maverick is a different story, since both maverick players I test with have 3 mindcensors maindeck..which can be quite annoying for fetch lands as well as explorers, and zeniths..

But I will avoid my stereo typical "need" of white and test Bg...

@Viridia -- I forgot that we were switching the Moat and Humility, so I didn't take that into consideration like a derp. You definitely want the Humility in your board -- ignore the Cranial/Memoricide and just put Humility there. That's my bad. And yeah, if you can't find a Sanctity or a Chains in time, don't worry about it too much. They're very powerful tools to have, but they can be substituted.

@the Blue Version -- Fact or Fiction is much better than Gifts is in that deck. I didn't want to believe it since Gifts is literally one of my favorite cards ever, and I really wanted it to work...but Fact is just better, sadly. I'd like to say that Consecrated Sphinx is a main reason to play blue, since drawing 6 off their Brainstorm is hotttttt. But if I'm being honest, it's -still- Fact or Fiction. It's just too good -- and people are idiots when making piles, because that's a forgotten skill. Nobody's used Fact in so long now that people don't remember how to do it. And sometimes the deck just gives you a lose-lose pile where no matter how they do it you're winning.

@Qweerios -- I'm going to make one or two quick comments before the color discussion. You don't need Empath/Kokusho at all. Your list is set up to do different things, and that's fine. One question though: as I looked over your list again, why no Karakas just for utility/the ability to save Kodama when shit goes south? Seems like your list could get away with Karakas more so than the tricolor lists.

Okay, color time.

GB: the "stock" list -- the green/black list follows the oldest traditional Rock decks in that it aggressively disrupts, then drops a hard-to-deal-with threat and rides that threat to victory.

Modus operandi: Discard all the things, remove some of the things, win with Kodama, PHunter, Primeval->twin towers.

Strengths: This is my perception, as I haven't played it. RUG, Maverick, Storm depending on board, probably Reanimator depending on board, Merfolk

Weaknesses: This is my perception, as I haven't played it. Burn, Sneak/Show, Stoneblade, maybe U/R Delver, maybe U/W Miracles, maybe Goblins, Storm depending on board, Reanimator depending on board (but probably not).

The way I see it, the GB version is weak to a lot of random shit that isn't very popular, and is very strong against the two most popular decks, and the board very likely makes you favored vs storm and reanimator. I would think Gobs would be a bad matchup for you, though, since you can't really use your sacrifice removal effectively vs them, and they can just "go off" with Matron or Ringleader after you've discarded their hand. I might be wrong though -- as I said, this one is just theoretical by me, as I see things. Although I didn't add it to the list as it's more of a random matchup that isn't common, DnT is probably a hard match. Revoker on Deed is a blowout, and again sacrifice removal isn't very good due to their swarm. Your version is also heavy spell-base, so Thalia is more effective than any of us would like to admit.

GBW: the popular girl -- the white splash list plays more like modern rock decks, but with less disruption and more prison effects.

Modus Operandi: Modicums of discard and removal, with a multitude of prison effects and big threats. Win with Kokusho, Sun Titan, Elspeth, Baneslayer, Sigarda, or just through prison via Moat, Leyline of Sanctity, Humility, Chains, etc.

Strengths: RUG, Storm, Zoo, Merfolk, Gobs, Burn, U/R Delver, Stoneblade.

Weaknesses: questionably Reanimator and Sneak/Show, Maverick is borderline depending on their build, maybe U/W Miracles but I'm guessing not (haven't tested it), 12post is unwinnable (lol).

The white version doesn't enjoy Aven Mindcensor at all, because Rector builds use a secondary tutor engine beyond just Green Sun. It's stronger vs tribal and some of the random matchups just because it's doing more powerful things, and if you can survive long enough vs Reanimator and Sneak, you're pretty much a lock to win. The White is stronger than G/B lategame, but G/B stands a better chance at getting to that lategame -- kind of a conundrum. The RUG matchup isn't a bye like it used to be, but it's still heavily in our favor. Grindy control matches are where the White is most at home -- it can grind Stoneblade and BUG out no problem, and my GUESS is that Miracles is probably favorable, but since I haven't tested it I put it down as questionably negative for the sake of argument. The White dies to fast reanimator and Sneak hands, along with aggressive draws from Maverick usually including at least one Mindcensor, and aggressive RUG draws involving 1-land-hands. It also is somewhat vulnerable to Wasteland, although smart play can lower the chances of a blowout (ie basic Swamp, Cabal Therapy, check for wastelands to see how you develop your board).

GBU -- the upstart. People seem to really like the BUG version. The Blue will literally drown your opponent in value and card advantage.

Modus Operandi: value, value, value. Primary win conditions include Jace TMS, Kokusho, Consecrated Sphinx, Grave Titan, and having literally 10 cards left in deck compared to your opponent's 30.

Strengths: Storm, Reanimator, Sneak/Show, Maverick, maybe Elves, RUG, Stoneblade.

Weaknesses: Merfolk, questionably U/W Miracles, Enchantress, Burn and U/R Delver depending on the number of Sulfuric Vortexes, maybe Goblins.

The Blue is the combo killer of the family. Outside of Enchantress, I don't think I've run into a combo deck it can't beat reliably yet. Generating value while chumping leads the way to stomping Maverick and RUG, while drowning everyone out with card advantage is just generally good vs everyone else. Having 3 6-drops alongside Jace leads to one of the most powerful endgames out of the archetype, and the Blue sports greatly increased stability to get there with Brainstorm and a backup ramp engine in the form of Coiling Oracle + Recurring Nightmare. Nightmare is arguably more broken here than in any other color combination, since you have Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle alongside the usual suspects. The Blue also runs a 3rd Eternal Witness to set up that loop more easily.

GBR: the outcast. Jund had a brief moment of popularity, but that seems to have disappeared now.

Modus Operandi: a bit more ramp-oriented, with a Burning Wish engine that fuels a Scapeshift kill. Alternatively, Huntmaster of the Fells is absurd in legacy, and some lists sport Punishing Fire to machine gun tribal and Maverick's weenies.

Strengths: Merfolk, maybe Goblins, RUG, Maverick, Burn (somehow), maybe U/R Delver, most random decks.

Weaknesses: maybe Stoneblade, Storm, Reanimator, Sneak/Show, questionably Miracles but probably not.

The problem here is whether the list runs Burning Wish or not. With Wish, the Red can pull wins out of its ass because it can blow people out with specific, targeted hate cards in g1 scenarios. Burning Wish for Virtue's Ruin is a nightmare for Maverick. For Tsunami is pretty much better than Stoneblade and Miracles. For Scapeshift, well, you win against everything random (and sometimes vs tier decks that have stumbled). It can race Burn. At the same time, the Punishing Fire versions without Scapeshift or Wish are much more stable, and much better equipped to deal with tribal decks. I just kind of combined the two sub-sub-versions in the strengths/weaknesses -- I feel like although Wish can supplement otherwise bad matchups and make them at least 50/50, that doesn't mean they suddenly become strengths. At the same time, I'll also mention that my experience with the red version is currently limited as I haven't been putting time into it. I just picked up a set of Taigas at Atlanta, though, so I actually have the mana base to work on it now. I do feel like the red version is currently the weakest, though, unless Tribal becomes more of a force than it currently is.

To summarize, I feel that the biggest thing that the third color adds is a backup engine. White: Rector. Red: Wish. Blue: Brainstorm/Fact/Oracle/Strix (blue adds a lot of them, lol). Red is the fastest and the most flexible, Blue is the most stable, White is the most powerful.

I feel like straight G/B occupies the center region -- it has elements of each of the three splashes in balance, but doesn't go to any one extreme. It doesn't have a backup engine, but it's stable by default. It doesn't have much speed, but it's fairly flexible based on its board and GSZ targets. It doesn't have many win conditions, but it does have one particularly powerful one. And so.

I'm not going to make any value judgments here -- I'll leave that to the replies. You asked what I think a third color brings, well, there's a summary for you.

Wow, quite an essay you wrote there. I too think that the blue splash is the most prominent because Jace is such a beating (imagine alongside Lily and Garruk, what a team!). Brainstorm looks like a great tool with all the shufflers we have as well. I fail to see, however, how Fact or Fiction is superior to Gifts. Fact is limited to the top cards of your deck while Gift allows you to make impossible piles and leaves you with 2 quality cards at worst.

Also, I don't think StP is better than Innocent Blood in this deck. If I were to go back to the white splash soon, I probably wouldn't play StP over Blood either. Blood has much more synergy with the rest of the deck and fetching a Plains is the last thing you want to do with your opener.

Oh yeah, Karakas doesn't work with Kodama. He's Shrouded, not Hexproof.

Oops, forgot about that RE Kodama. Derp.

I like having some number of instant-speed removal postboard to supplement Deed because Gilded Drake is a savage beating, especially for the white version. If RUG can take our Baneslayer or Sun Titan, things get really, really ugly. I do like Innocent Blood a lot since it's both an enabler for our deck and can really put the opponent on their backfoot in the proper situation, but that's just it -- it's situational. I won't say that Drake isn't, but a lot of times Maverick post-Deed will drop like a Knight and a Hierarch or Mom that they've been sandbagging, making Blood useless. I generally like a 1-of removal suite with the archetype (regardless of color) because Eternal Witness grants us a lot of options. It's weird -- for as much as people love their Snapcasters, I'm surprised that they haven't realized how good the original Snapcaster still is. I think we can safely agree that the full 4 StP is wrong. Ideally I think I'd like something like a 2/2 split with Blood between main and sideboard, but opening slots in my list is like pulling teeth at this point.

The biggest problem that I have with Gifts is that it's slow as tar. Most savvy players are going to grant you the "recursion" cards because that will make it take more mana for you to get what you want -- for example, in a pile of Consecrated Sphinx, Recurring Nightmare, Eternal Witness, and Regrowth, you're going to get Witness and Regrowth. Now, at EoT this is closer to fine, esp. in the blue list since it has a backup ramp engine. However, consider the following: you have 8 lands in play, no cards in hand. your opponent is similarly out of gas. You rip Gifts Ungiven off the top. You make a pile of like 6-drop, Witness, Empath, Nightmare. You have 4 mana left, and he gives you Witness Empath. You're still not in a BAD spot, but there's a lot of things your opponent can rip to make your life miserable. Now in the same situation, let's say it was a Fact or Fiction instead. You drop FoF into the open board, 4 mana left. FoF flips.....let's say GSZ, Strix, Jace, land, land. No matter what way he makes the pile, you're going to do something awesome. Even in the WORST CASE, you hit 5 lands and those are 5 lands you aren't drawing. With the deck thinning of Explorer, though, this is very unlikely. IMO you're still further ahead in the same situation than Gifts. Gifts also requires you to run a lot of situation 1-of splits to be able to take advantage of it properly, which can lead to sloppy deck construction.

Probably the two most damning arguments vs Gifts, though, are the following:

1) The 2nd Gifts is ass. You only ever want one Gifts, because it's going to get the 4 best cards in your deck (or 2 best + 2 recursion, or whatever). If you Gifts for Nightmare, 6-drop, Witness, GSZ (probably the best "win the game" pile you can make in the abstract, pending board state), what the heck do you do with subsequent Gifts?

2) You don't have access to the best cards that go with Gifts: Sun Titan and Unburial Rites (for different purposes). Witness/Nightmare/Titan/[situational creature] is disgusting and degenerate. The problem is that given the core shell is GB, you would need a double splash to make this happen -- one of which needs to accommodate a WW cost. Even more irritating is that we have the mana to actually abuse Gifts -> Unburial+target in legacy, but, again, the colors are problematic.

My proposed solution is that if we really feel like messing with Gifts, we try the impossible and attempt to make some kind of bastardized 5cc fueled by the Explorer engine probably backed up by Reflecting Pools. God only knows what this would look like, and I'm really not sure that the lure of making an effective Gifts deck is actually worth the time that would be spent attempting R&D.

I'll end before I write another essay with the disclaimer that I actually tried to shoehorn blue (for Gifts) into my GBW list like 6 months ago, and when it worked, it was disgusting...but it didn't often work. And that I originally had a 2/2 split of Gifts/FoF in the blue version, but Gifts underperformed in testing every single time. I really, really like it -- I just haven't gotten it to work, to the point where I've despaired of actually being able to.

@ Arianrhod - Yeah the Humility will be in my SB, aswell as a Leyline, however i won't be able to find the Chains in time, atm that spot is filled with the 4th Thoughtseize, but i',m not sure if there isnt actually something better.

Maybe put Faith's Fetters in the board? With the resurgence of Maverick and the decline of Sneak, I think that O-Ring is going to switch back. Fetters really is better for the deck overall, since it is a more solid answer to planeswalkers, is over the average Deed hump of x=3, gains 4 life (more relevant than one might think), and also stops problematic lands like Maze of Ith, Academy Ruins, etc. At Atlanta I found myself digging for my Vindicate for Maze of Ith a lot, and that got kind of annoying. O-Ring's better if there's a lot of Show and Tell around, which it sounded like there is in your meta, so I'd leave Ring in main, and put Fetters in the board for Maverick, Burn, Blade, and RUG. Don't forget that if you Rector it into play, you can put it on Nimble Mongoose despite Shroud.

Yeah last tournaments there was an average of 2 s&t in the top 8 including a mirror final, so i'll keep the o-ring mainboard and the fetters sideboard then.

My main reasons to play the BUG list are:
Jace + Deed + Mana acceleration due to Explorer. Most fair decks just can't beat that. Brainstorm indeed increases the stability of your draws to an absurd level. Strix and Oracle are doing exactly what they are supposed to do: Generate infinite value and protect Jace really well (especially Strix). They also pitch to your SB'd FoW. Playing U but no counters maindeck is super-fun, as long as you can play the bluffing game well. And I like the colors. :D

Merfolk is indeed a weak matchup. I tested vs. a list with the new M13 Lord and relying on islands was utterly devastating for me. The single game I've won I never played or fetched a blue mana source, so my value creatures could actually block something. Islandwalk and the fact that they are playing so many lords so quick is a real concern.

I also tested vs. a Counterbalance Miracles list, and I'd say BUG (or "Valuetown" as I came to call it) is favoured. You simply draw more cards than them. Granted, they can counter our Sixes with Terminus off Counterbalance (yes, that happened), but that's a losing proposition. FoF is very valuable here, since you can EoT bait a counter and then cast Jace. The only difficulty is the fact that you can't control the top of their deck.

On FoF vs Gifts: Gifts is just so slow. And with 3 Witnesses and lots of value creatures, there are barely 5 cards you can do nothing with. I was always happy when I could cast FoF. You have less control about what you get, but overall, the card seems a lot faster. Plus, people really are that bad at dividing FoF-cards. And with 3 Witness, chances are that you already have one in your hand. And then, FoF becomes utterly ridiculous.

SB:
Extirpates were really good for me as of yet. I changed the Duresses to Thoughtseizes, to be able to discard Griselbrands etc. It appears you only need the additional discard in non-aggro matchups.

So why Stryx when we have access to Wall of Blossom?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

So why Stryx when we have access to Wall of Blossom?

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Deathtouch + Flying blocks/kills anything. Walls living through a couple ground pounders is a lot less relevant.

Flying AND deathtouch is a huge difference, especially considering that we are short on removal. Having the possibility to block and kill Griselbrand, Sigarda, delver, and all non-flying creatures is the difference.

It is not comparable, when you play Strix opponent is afraid of it, and not as a simple wall that just blocks.

Edit: HoneyT has won me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soiber2000

Flying AND deathtouch is a huge difference, especially considering that we are short on removal. Having the possibility to block and kill Griselbrand, Sigarda, delver, and all non-flying creatures is the difference.

It is not comparable, when you play Strix opponent is afraid of it, and not as a simple wall that just blocks.

Edit: HoneyT has won me.

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I think the bug version is worth a try, so I went back to the last list , is this considered a starting point for bug or are there any other lists to look at?
Cause I find some choices a little bit confusing and not really fitting.

Thanks in advance

Arianrhod, can you post your current BUG list? I really want to test it :)