I like the 3/1 Giant split. Any opinions on Creeping Chill?
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I like the 3/1 Giant split. Any opinions on Creeping Chill?
Good if you can fit them in. Flip library, drain 12 is pretty nifty.
Generally speaking they are bad, anything that doesn't feed Ichorid and Hogaak or activate Nether Shadow needs a really good reason to be in the deck. If you flip off Spy then they are win more, if it costs you an Ichorid/Hogaak/Shadow activation you break even or lose out on damage and it costs you Lotleth pings and Troll counters later on anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses
The deck is built on extreme consistency, most of the people who advocate stuff like Flayer and Chill don't play through Crypt effects and squeek out wins fwiw.
You do you boo
Yeah I was thinking about how it doesn't help me pump out recurring creatures which feeds Bridge etc. I think I'm gonna go with Lotleth Giant but Chill doesn't seem worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
The most important thing is do not become one of those people who only play the deck in auto-pilot mode and only get wins whenever they're uncontested in game 1, a lot of the skill of the deck comes specifically from being able to play through the soft hate like Surgical Extraction and Bojuka Bog etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses
Thanks for the advice. I definitely have a lot to learn in terms of playing around hate and grinding out games when I can't combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
What's the opinion on Force of Despair as opposed to Contagion?
It seems like Force of Despair is better against fast combo like Reanimator or decks that flood the board like Storm and Belcher, but I can't see any downside against fair decks like D&T or Mentor based strategies like Miracles or Stoneblade.
It's garbage, Sickening Shoal has most of the same benefits and you can top deck it to remove a hate bear that is already on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tes Jesus
Containment Priest dodges Force of Despair, so that is something to consider.
Another option for winning after deck flipping, and can be dread returned:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-conte...302.png?x96163
Also gets around opponents with hex proof and all that. Not black for ichorid, but is blue for force, obviously.
Text in case image doesn't link:
Thassa's oracle - UU. Creature - Merefolk wizard 1/3
When ~ ETB, look at the top X cards of your library, put one on top and the rest on the bottom, where X is your devotion to blue. If X is greater OR EQUAL than the number of cards in your library, you win the game.
I've been out of the game for more than a minute, Wrenn & Six was a thing, and not a thing since I last played.
What's a general sense of the game? Planning on playing in a tourney in the Northeast soon, debating between this and a storm variant. What is out there to expect, what does Oko do that I may or may not care about or another flavor of the day? What is the typical gy hate being played?
Thx.
Expected list:
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Gigapede
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Gigapede
4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
3 Contagion
Leyline of the Void is much more common now due to Hogaak and BR Reanimator, and decks that don't normally play Leyline, such as BUG Control/Midrange or Dark Maverick, sometimes have it alongside other hate. Personally, I would play the Storm variant over Manaless because I don't like the beat-the-hate guessing game and because protected Leylines are GG. UW decks are running some configuration of Containment Priest (mainly to hit Sneak and Show) and either Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction or both. Oko is a nonfactor vs. Manaless, but its impact on the metagame as a whole has led to more people playing Hogaak, and that has led to more graveyard hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
Some people in MTGO Leagues really don't like niceties from Manaless opponents :laugh:
https://i.imgur.com/t9B26Bn.png
Wow. What was your opponent playing? Personally, I've enjoyed almost all the games I've ever played against Manaless Dredge with a wide variety of decks. It's a very fun matchup. The games only tend to be uninteresting if I have Leyline of the Void.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
Astrolabe Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
Same. I almost always enjoy playing Manaless, against Manaless, and with and against weird decks in general.
He's a former Eternal Weekend champion too. Grumpy grinders/spikes gonna grump ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Considering the misery most of us experience when playing against the slow grind of Miracles I feel this is poetic justice. I'm of the same mindset: I love fringe decks and anything home-brewed, to the point I have more fun losing to a deck like that than winning against a hum-drum tier deck.
Opponent: *adjusting monacle*
"I do believe I have the best control deck of the format, why are you dueling me with this peasant manaless dredge nonsense?"
Player: "Because it steamrolls your ultra-meta-gamed control list."
Hello there, long time enthusiast of the deck. Registered only to share the list I ran to success at my local weekly event and do a brief round recap.
First of all, the idea behind my list is to try the best of both worlds and merge the blue and green sideboards into one.
The point of my attempt is to try and fix the blue sideboard's innability to answer leyline with the green's obligation to start over from square one after clearing RIP or some other yard resetting piece of hate. Plus, I feel blue also has better chances at fighting opposing combo decks.
So without further ado, my 75:
Dredgers
3 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
Recurring Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
Utility
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
1 Progenitus
Combo Package
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Sideboard
3 Serum Powder
4 Force of Negation
4 Force of Vigor
4 Force of Will
Card Choices:
-Balustrade Spy: "Spy in a blue sided list? I-Is he maaad?!?!?!". I know, I know. The thing is that I love having our little "I win" button around and I'm too paranoid of not finding Flayer when trying the combo finish. Plus, I did manage to fit 17 blue cards in the 75 while keeping him in.
-Progenitus: Serves the dual purpose of supporting all Forces and also allowing for some extra turns of leeway after Spy'ing (also turning opposing SnTs and Exhumes into free wins doesn't hurt).
-Flayer: Better than Lotleth giant before Spy. After Spy the extra Dread Return needed for him to do Lotleth's job should never be relevant (even if we use the last DR on him) since Hogaak/Amalgams can finish the job in the same turn. Plus, any opposing removals can be Therapy'd away before commiting him to the board, so that too is less of an issue than having the slot be usefull more often.
-Once Upon a Time: Currently I don't own a playset and, since they're 30+ bucks in Brazil, I want to be sure they won't be banned in Modern and plummet in price BEFORE I spend cash on them (Hogaak playset says hi). But they'd be there replacing 1 Shell, 2 Hogaaks and a 4th slot I haven't decided yet (probably Progenitus, but I rather not if I can).
Quick tourney recap:
17 players, 4 rounds.
Round 1: Fast Depths 0-2
G1. Opponent wins the dice roll and takes the play. I mull a Dredgerless hand and find Troll and Wraith. T1 he plays Urborg and accels into a land tutor, I draw pass. T2 he drops Thespian and passes, I draw and discard Troll. T3 he drops Depths and a Petal and passes, I Wraith on his 2nd mainphase finding Narco, Amalgam, Spy, Return, Ichorid and Phantasmagorian (sweet). He makes Marit Lage and sacs Petal to Crop Rotation Urborg into maindeck Bojuka (O_O).
G2. Figuring my best shot is to combo him protected from Crop I side out Phantasmagorians ,Therapies and 3 Hoggaks for the blue Forces and Powder (Leyline'd be a loss even if I FoV'd it). I Serum a hand with no Forces into one with FoN, Amalgam and a Dredger but I'm ultimately too slow to do anything even after ignoring a possible Rotation to stop one of his tutors from getting his combo.
0-1
Round 2: Esper Stoneblade 2-1
G1. No relevant play from opponent. Ichorids, Shadows and Amalgams drive it home through a Jitte'd Stoneforge.
G2. Fearing RIP and Cage I side out the whole combo and Phantasmagorians for the full set of Forces. T1 he puts me on the play, drops a land and ponders. T2 I discard Troll and pass, he Surgicals and protects it from FoW with Spell Pierce. I'm holding 2 more Trolls in hand as my only dredgers... An eternity of draw go later I find no more Forces and restart the engine with Imp but he Surgicals again with Snapcaster and gets a clock going with it and TNN (i think).
G3. On the play again I keep a hand with FoN, Amalgam and Thug while he goes down to 5. T1 He land Ponders. T2 I discard Thug, he tries to Cage unprotected, which I counter. T3 Thug finds Ichorid and Imp, he continues to dig. After 2 or so turns I dredge 3 Therapies while having 2 Ichorids, with the 1st I name RIP only to find Containment Priest, which he promptly discards before I even announce the 2nd and then concedes as I have'im at 9 life.
1-1
Round 3: Sneak and Show 2-0
G1. Being put on the draw (sweet lost dice rolls) I keep a slow hand with Thug. Not going fast either we go until he drops Sneak Attack and cantrips on the following turn. I bring 2 Shadows and Ichorid and dredge Narco with an Amalgam while having another already in grave. After attacking I DR a 9/9 Troll making 3 zombies. He then gets shocked after I announce that after Troll both Amalgams, not only the 1st anymore, get into play putting me at a total of 7 creatures and out of Grisel and Emmy's reach thanks to Narco. He proceeds to Emmy and leave me with 4 zombies, enough to finish him with my hasty dudes.
G2. Deciding to keep the combo in I side out Phantasmagorians and Hogaaks for the blue Forces. Being put on the draw again he goes down to 6 and I decide to keep a hand with a naked FoN, Troll, Imp and Spy. He proceeds to play Tormod's Crypt, Island and pass. I proceed to draw a blue card and discard Imp with the idea of keeping Troll for after Tormod's eventual break. T2 he Ancient Tombs into a naked SnT, which I counter (sadly looking at Spy) since Tormod's still up, and proceeds to break Tormod onto my lone Imp. I draw go and pray to the Dredge gods for him to have another SnT...which he does. T3 he answers my prayers by SnT'ing Grisel while I show him Spy. After hearing about Progenitus and my Narcos who'd bring their Prized friends along he draws 7 (almost giving me an anxiety attack with the prospect of another Tormod) and finds a Surgical, but it is ultimately useless against so many targets.
2-1
Round 3: Merfolk 2-0
G1. Being put on the draw ('dem great 'lost' dicerolls again) I have a slow start that goes on and on until I'm about to be downed by two lords and a TNN wearing a Jitte (used to keep my board empty) while without Bridges, when I finally find 2 and make 2 zombies (Jitte at 1 counter) with a Therapy, that showed me a Vial. The tokens give me another turn by blocking the lords and allowing me to combo finish the following turn.
G2. Again keeping the combo I side out Phantasmagorians, Hogaaks and 3 Therapies for the blue Forces and the 3 Powders. Being put on the draw again I decide to keep a Force'less hand with a Thug and 2 Wraiths (rationalizing that in this BR Reanimator infested times Surgical/Faerie Macabre is loads more likely than Cage) and my opponent goes down to 5. I play it safe for 2 turns by keeping both Wraiths to answer an eventual targeted hate until I find an Imp and decide to commit one of them. It goes through no problem and I figure that's too much even if he has it, so I commit the 2nd one and combo him on my turn.
3-1
There was no 4-0 so that puts me among the top results of the day.
I feel that, without OUAT 15 dredgers is too light. Too many opening hands without a dredger (not only during the event).
Overall the deck once again shows it CAN and WILL perform among tried and tested meta decks, BUT it feels quite unstable in the regard that, while the deck can certainly fight hate, I feel it depends on said hate being unaccompanied by further pressure/interaction. Also it bugs me to no end to have won through such crude mistakes such as the Sneak and Show match. Don't get me wrong, I love free wins as much as the next guy but it blurs the line between the merits of the deck and the demerits of the opposition. I truly and wholly hope there'll be a day when this deck has enough tools to make it less "Do or Die" and have a more stable performance.
P.S.-This experience made me sure of one thing.
ONCE UPON A TIME IS A MUST FOR BOTH CONSISTENCY AND SPEED!!!
@idc1993: Congrats on the result! I run the exact same 60!
What are people's opinions on dredgerless hands with Once Upon a Time?
The card kind of works like a mulligan, but if it doesn't hit it whithin the 5 cards or the following one, then it's a BIG screw.
Also, what about hands that have a dredger but not Troll? Discard and OUAT after to look for Wraith or do it before to expand the chances of a bigger dredger at the cost of showing the opponent what we're playing?
The first game action we take will show what we are on. We will, hopefully, move to discard, then discard a dredger. If we have OUAT, I think we can use it before we discard. The problem is that, if it is countered, we have been set back a turn from discarding. If it is not countered, we will be replacing it in our hand, so we will still be able to discard. However, any way you slice it, we are not really giving up information about what we are on, because nobody else moves to discard like we do. Casting OUAT just before moving to discard does not really tell them anything they wouldn't know. There is no real window of secrecy there.Quote:
Originally Posted by idc1993
The way I see it, we can either play OUAT during their upkeep to narrow their ability to counter down to Force, but have them spend their turn already knowing what we're playing (since we reveal the card), or we can let them go on with their turn still oblivious and cast it during ours, but have a higher chance of getting it countered by Daze/Pierce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoshim
Also, even if unaware of our deck, an opponent seeing us cast OUAT during our turn before making a land drop might be tempted to counter it by reasoning that we probably kept a good landless hand and are attempting to fix it by finding a land.
All in all, I think it's safer to cast it during their 1st upkeep, especially since it reduces interaction down to Force and discard (and anyone with targeted discard should be starting the game by casting it anyway). Plus, no one should Force OUAT unless they already know what we're on.
If they do know, either by having us put them on them play or by it being game 2/3, it might be worth it to discard 1st.
Isn't Balustrade Spy + Thassa's Oracle pretty good for this deck? I'm also curious if Bazaar Trademage could be a DR target that supercharges dredging and also feeds the Force of Will/Negation sideboard plan. It makes me think Sphinx of Foresight could be another option instead of Once Upon a Time to smooth out early turns, and again feed the Force plan.
Just some thoughts I had while brewing a terrible Vengevine deck.
Why DR Bazaar Trademage when you have access to Balustrade Spy, Griselbrand or Whirlpool Rider/Drake? Those basically say "flip my library" rather than "Time Walk twice".
Oracle is a fine wincon. I play one together w/ Flayer at the moment. Flayer's still the more robust option.
Without any experience with manaless, I didn't realize the Whirlpool creatures do the same but better. I was just thinking that DR > Balustrade Spy might not happen often enough to make it reliable as a combo finish. My thought was that if you have a DR but no Spy in the graveyard you would need to turbo-charge your dredging. Currently Street Wraith does that to get an extra dredge for your turn, but the draw 2 would allow you to get 2 extra dredges out of it. *shrug* It was just an idea, apparently not nearly as good as other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I suppose you run Oracle alongside Flayer to get around any possibility of having your combo interfered with by the likes of Leyline of Sanctity or Glacial Chasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
If that's the case, why not just run Ashen Rider in that slot?
It gets through any eventual speed bumps messing with your combo and, like Flayer, is a superior DR target for beatdown if you haven't got a Spy in your yard.
Don't get me wrong, I love how Oracle gets there plain and simple without and around any shenanigans, but it is utterly useless (aside from being Force fodder) pre-Spy.
The extra work you need to put into Rider/Flayer is nigh irrelevant post-Spy and they still pull double duty by also being relevant before it.
I just prefer "I win this turn" (Flayer) over "I probably win in a few turns" (Ashen Rider). I think the extra hoops you have to jump through are worth it.
@Mr. Safety You dredge into Spy often enough for it not to matter. Other than that you still have your beats and Hogaaks.
But what I'm saying is that you still "win this turn" after Spy by DR'ing Ashen Rider to remove whatever's stopping Flayer and THEN DR'ing Flayer+Troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'm advocating running Flayer + Rider instead of Flayer + Oracle since the benefit of Rider in Oracle's slot is that it's also a great DR target before Spy whereas Oracle is dead in that scenario.
I get your point but don't necessarily agree with it
Nothing wrong with that. It just seemed like you misunderstood what I meant and I just wanted to clarity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
And you were right about that. You clarified it well :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by idc1993
I've run Whirlpool Rider for a while because it pitches to Force. I'd been considering Prime Speaker Zegana because it pitches to Force AND Force, but the downside is probably prohibitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Silvermote Ghoul + Creeping Chill > Prized Amalgam ?
edit: Silversmote
I don't think it is worth it, but I suppose it is worth testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by zzap
They both enter the battlefield tapped.
PA is a 3/3. SG is a 3/1.
There is way to take advantage of SG's activated ability in Manaless (unless we run LED).
If SG dies, we have to hit another Creeping Chill to get it out again.
If PA dies, we can likely get it again because we recur Ichorids and Nether Shadows pretty regularly, as well as triggering with Narcomoebas. We also trigger PA with Dread Return, so DR on Hateflayer allows us to hit for 4, plus whatever Amalgams are in our graveyard.
So, I think a 3/3 that enters from a number of different plays is better than a 3/1 that enters from only one type of play.
However, if LED is brought into the mix to generate mana, then it could get interested to get that extra draw plus the death trigger, though I think that plan is not really worth it. Manaless is similar to Burn in the sense that the idea is to run a lot of redundant effects to achieve consistency rather than looking to hit a particular combo of cards.
The problem with PA is that it's not really a recurring creature like Ichorid, at least in the same way. PA just comes in because another creature did, while SG can come in on its own with a few CC activations. I never liked PA because of its inability to come in without a buddy. Opponents can just sit on Narcs, Ichorids, Nethers and ripping them with Snapped Surgicals, while just completely ignoring PA. At least with CC and SG, together they provide another body that can draw Surgical attention, especially with a Hagaak looming. Definitely worth testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoshim
That is a fair point. So, a list like this:
2 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Silversmote Ghoul
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill
One problem though is that the green card count is down to 8 (2 Shell, 4 Troll, 2 Hogaak). It is a little tricky jamming both Chill and the new Ghoul into the list while keeping the green count high enough for Force of Vigor out of the sideboard. I am not sure what to cut from here to help with that.
I love running 4 Hogaak, as they have built in DRs. It's more economical and can pitch to FoV. Since its printing, I've shaved the DR combo down to 2 DR and 2 Gris/Spy with Flayer/Lotleth in the sideboard.
If Bloodghast wasn't good enough for Manaless, then I doubt Silversmote Ghoul is. While Creeping Chill is an improvement on Dakmor Salavage, the problem is that the deck can hardly afford to cut 8 cards for the whole package.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoshim
It is hard to cut cards to make the package fit, but I think that Chill+Ghoul is a bit better than the Bloodghast plan, mostly because we do not need to waste our dredge on the land.
I have been thinking about moving the deck to more of a beatdown plan. I also tried to reduce the amount of cards that need to be in hand to use (so there are only Force of Vigor and Once Upon a Time in the sideboard).
I did a little testing this morning. Here is the list I am testing with:
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Silversmote Ghoul
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Whirlpool Drake
4 Dread Return
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill
Sideboard:
4 Force of Vigor
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Progenitus
4 Leyline of the Void
The green count in the main deck is 10. There are no Street Wraiths. There are two Whirlpool Drakes for speed with Dread Return, but there is no "I win" combo. Having the Silversmote Ghouls is the deck is pretty nice. I was able to dredge Amalgam + Ghoul + Chill in one go. The Ghoul entered at the end of my turn, and the Amalgam at the end of my opponent's turn.
I like having an "I win" combo in the deck, so I am considering cutting down on the Phantasmagorians and/or Hogaaks (maybe -2 Hogaak, and switch out the Whirlpool Drakes so that there can be 3 Balustrade Spy and 1 Thassa's Oracle). This would drop the main deck green count to 8, but there are options in the sideboard to get is to 16+. (Also, the sideboard is not set, just an idea to get started.)
I'd shave like a dredger or a DR in order to run a Thassa's Oracle/Flayer of the Hatebound. Adding that "I win"-button costs you literally just 1 slot, which simply must be worth it. And by doing so you can revert back to Balustrade Spies.
The thing I look for is a way to eliminate cards that possibly do nothing in certain scenario's. In that regard, however good Street Wraith is, the effect you run it for only works if you have it in your opening hand. While I'm not sure the new guy is the way to go I do think that if you want to incorporate the new package cutting SW would be the way to do it.
I'd suggest the following 60:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Silversmote Ghoul
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (b/c synergy w/ the crazy number of recurring creatures you run)
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
4 Creeping Chill
Now I'm not sure that cutting SW is the way to go (we all know how powerful it is to SW in response to Surgical/Macabre on your dredger), but this is how'd I'd go about testing it.