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In some testing on the internet I was playing against a guy who thought he had me with a Humility, I topped and flipped over Swans to CB.
He says, "lol i guess this wrath is no good either, you got combo?" I revealed Chain, Force, and Daze.
The most polite "Player Lost" I've ever gotten.
Yes, I did the same with a Enchantress-player. I countered Humility and Moat with it... Orgasm guaranteed. I then only had to keep Confinement off the table and won via combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by yawg07
It doesn't help you much except when facing decks with abnormal numbers of large beefy creatures. In all honesty the extra burn is more useful than the Swan Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
I also highly recomend Wheel of Sun and Moon as the 1 of win condition. Less risky than all the other win conditions and consistant.
Is Wheel of Sun and Moon supposed to be something else?
If not, walk me through...
Isn't this why the sb contains krosan grips, tormod's crypt, trygon predator, and red blasts? Also, the mana denial plan isn't good at all. They run 3-7 basics in addition to crucible. The wastes are great for taking out factory/academy ruins, and the stifles are great for EE and decree cycles, though. Honestly, the matchup is bad but not unwinnable by any means.Quote:
Originally Posted by slyfer
Went to another local tourney and went 2-1-1 and got bumped out of finals by percentage points :rolleyes:
Round 1 - White Weenie - 1/2
Game 1: I get counter-top online and I combo out
Game 2: I can't burn off his creatures because they all have pro-red and I can't find a Goyf or a Goose until its too late
Game 3: Things are going very well and I'm about to combo off and bam here comes a 'geddon that I can't stop. :frown:
Round 2 - W/U Wizard Aggro - 1/1/1 (nihlistdeathtrip)
Game 1: He gets game one, but I can't remember what happened. He countered BOTH of my Counterbalances lol
Game 2: After a LONG drawn out battle of counterbalances and tops and force of wills, I get a goyf to stay on the table for the win
Game 3: Time was called upon the start of the match :tongue:
Round 3 - W/B Knights - 2/1
Game 1: I repeatedly kill Haakon and other knights and keep a few Goyfs on the table, get him to 3 and Chain him
Game 2: I misdirection his Hymn to Tourach, taking Therapy and Jitte or something, then his unstoppable Knight army overruns and I can't keep him down.
Game 3: Wow what a hand. Counterbalance, Top, Goyf, Goose, Goose, Fetch, Trop
I get my beatdown started and it is just too much coupled with counterbalance, I pull it out.
Round 4 - ITF - 2/0
Game 1: I combo off and he manages to flip Intuition into Lightning Storm. :/
Well, I've got one card left in deck and he is going to take my swans next turn.
I beat with swans, and chain him, he chains to the swans, and I chain back to him, he is at 4.
He takes my Swans and hits me with goyf and passes to me. I chain him. (he is at 1 now) he decides to copy it to his swans, I MISDIRECTION HIS COPY :D
Game 2: I had a counter for everything, and a grip for his deed. Tarmy went the distance.
Ugh then got bumped by like a percent or two :/
Ah well, I had fun and I still like the one of Misdirection, but it may change for Friday, we'll see.
so i am looking to put together the deck, dont have very much thresh experience so thought i come asking a few questions before i bought what i am missing.
i currently dont own much of the mana base, so i am looking to save some money by giving up some efficiency but i dont think that i will notice much of a difference.
the current fetchs i own are
4x wooded foothills
3x flooded strand
how would i build a mana base around that, also if i could go down to as few duals as possible to save on the $$
Swan-Thresh Local Tourney Report! 4-1-1 Top 2 Split!
Round 1 - W/B Knights - 2/0
Game 1: Counter-top gets online and my guys bring the pain, simple game
Game 2: Counter-top gets online and it goes back and forth, his Dystopia annoying the shit out of me.
He drops to 7 and lets it die, I top and see Krosan Grip and put it second so I draw Daze.
I play Swans and pass. He plays Dystopia and I flip Grip into it.
He passes and I show him the Chain of Plasma, but I just attack with Swans and Bolt him.
Round 2 - Sensei/Sensei - 2/0 (stalkerzero)
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and has consistant Brainstorms/Ponders, but I get counter-top down and 2 Goyfs.
Game 2: I Pyroblast a Trinket Mage, but he still has one Top and finds another shortly. I get a Goyf down as a 4/5, and pass.
I get counter-top out, and he drops a trinket mage, I reveal Ponder with CB. I play mistake and tap volcanic to play stifle on the mage.
He counterspells and I cannot pyroblast with a trop. :tounge: He gets his helm and plays it. I cannot counter.
Now HE play mistakes and starts to combo, I reveal Ponder and counter the top.
I find more Goyfs and bring the pain.
Round 3 - Eva Green (mostly) - 0/2
Game 1: Ugh I had to mull and only had one land, plus I had to keep dodging land-destruction.
I got rid of his Nantuko Shade and my Goyf started the pain bringing. He resolves Tombstalker when I'm at 5 :sad:
Game 2: Back an forth on this one, my Krosan Grip countering a Choke with my CB, but I forgot to leave it on top and he Grips my CB.
After a while he gets a Tombstalker to resolve and crushes me. Le sigh
Round 4 - R/G Madness - 2/1
Game 1: I draw nothing but freaking land and he has his Anger/Mongrel/Fireblast way with me :(
Game 2: He draws nothing but land and I have my Goyf/Counter/Top way with him.
Game 3: Pretty amazing game, all over the place. Goyfs and things all over. Mongoose being untargetable is so good.
Although something happened one that neither of us noticed until later. I bolted his Gathan Raiders and he Fireblasted in response to get hellbent.
I countered the fireblast and we both were absent-minded, and his raiders went to yard. I still feel bad about it.
TOP 4
Round 1 - Enchantress - 2/0 (landstill101)
Game 1: We each play a land and pass. He gets a second one and plays argothian, I brainstorm and Daze.
He stays at 2 lands and I get Counter-Top and hit 4 lands. I play Swans and pass. He can't hit 2nd white mana for Runed Halo (I had 2cc on top anyhow)
and I Chain of Plasma Swans and combo off.
Game 2: He has personal matters to attend to and respectfully backs out. My hand was nuts (3 land, brainstorm, daze, chain, swan) and his was bad, so no big deal.
FINALS
Round 1 - Armageddon Stax w/red splash (OneBigSquirrelGod)
We decide to split since it is 12:30 haha
I played my same list but with Predict instead of Misdirection, I didn't like it.
I think I will keep Misdirection in, I like having FoW #5 in control matches and creature removal re-direction.
Won myself $22.50 in store cred and went home. All in all, a good night.
Good show! Do you remember how you sideboarded for each match?
I knew I forgot something! Lemme see here ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Swiss
Against B/W Knights
Remove - 2x Ponder, 1x Predict
Put in - 3x Krosan Grip
Reason: In this match it is really good to have more 3-casters for CB-Top, especially since he boards in Dystopia.
If you've never played this before, you have NO idea how annoying Haakon can be, but one deck in the meta doesn't warrant SB Tormod's.
Against Sensei/Sensei
Remove - 3x Swans of Bryn-Argoll, 3x Chain of Plasma, 1x Lightning Storm, 4x Lightning Bolt
Put in - 2x Pithing Needle, 4x Stifle, 3x Pyroblast, 2x Krosan Grip
Reason: The combo is too slow for this match, and there is just SO MUCH hate in the SB for this deck.
Also the only creatures he runs, bolt is no good against, because all they have to do is hit play.
Against Eva-Green
I honestly don't remember what I did for this matchup, but whatever it was I'm pretty sure it was stupid.
I think I actually boarded out the combo ... which is a stupid idea, I dunno what I was thinking.
I don't know if all eva-green runs Deed, but this deck did. It was like ... Eva-Rock or something haha
Against R/G Madness
Remove - 3x Swans of Bryn-Agroll, 3x Chain of Plasma
Put in - 4x Stifle, 2x Pithing Needle
Reason: Lots of burn is bad for the swan combo, especially when they're boarding in Pyroblasts.
Stifle for the many fetches he ran, and Needle for Mongrel/Wasteland, although I ended up using it on Fanatic so I could kill a Goyf with Bolt.
Top 4
Against Enchantress
Remove - 4x Lightning Bolt, 1x Predict
Put in - 2x Pithing Needle, 3x Krosan Grip
Reason: Gotta get rid of problem Enchantments, so Grip comes in.
Needle is excellent against Words of War/Sterling Grove/Sacred Mesa, while Lightning Bolt does ... NOTHING! :D
If OneBigSquirrelGod and I would have played, I'd have done it like this
Against W/r Armageddon Stax
Remove - 4x Lightning Bolt, 1x Predict
Put in - 3x Krosan Grip, 2x Pithing Needle
Reason: Bolt can kill a Morphed Angel, but it more than likely won't due to several colorless artifacts.
Predict is "meh" pretty much everywhere, so I might as well squeeze that 3rd Grip in.
Needle says no Waste-Lock which is important for me to combo off.
This is the best build of White Stax I have ever seen. He and I used to test that deck ALL THE TIME.
Runed Halo and Oblivion Ring have had a lot of testing, and Halo comes out on top.
But the red splash lets you kill the creatures that always beat the shit out of you, I really think it is worth it.
I'm a big fan of the combo addition after looking it over last night.
I think the best parts of it are how well the deck does without it and the large threat it does add when it's in.
After my one month anniversary of my return to Magic, I have to say I see why Thresh is called the best deck in the format.
Alright, I'm gonna mix it up this week at my store's weekly legacy (if it happens) and play swans combo rather than canadian thresh. I feel like it'll be solid because counterbalance will also be a good meta card. Any tips on playing the swans variation? My meta is 2-3 thresh (1-2 canadian, one white), UWb Landstill, affinity/goblins/other aggro (not worried), a few combo (Breakfast, SI), and possibly a SuiBlack.
Needle Maindeck seems to be good in your meta. Regardless of the Thresh variant you're playing. With Swanthresh it will be hard to make room for it though. But there should be 2-3 in the board at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
When playing against UWb Landstill, keep those Swans on the top of your deck! Counterbalancing Humility, Wrath, and FoF is awesome, and usually unexpected. Return to Dust, too.
Also, against that meta, I'd strongly suggest Spell Snare for the free slots in the maindeck. Stealing tempo is crucial against aggro, and it's a good card in the control and mirror matchup, and combo too for that matter - ok, it's a great card all around ;)
Open slots? I wasn't aware there were open slots in the list. Do you have a standard list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Also, Needle seems okay, but it comes in for my already good MU's. It doesn't come in for affinity anyway because pyroclasm and krosan grip makes plenty of cards coming in. I guess it comes in in the SI and breakfast matchups, but mostly the same argument there. Landstill - for EE I'm assuming?
18 landsQuote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Swans
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Top
4 Bolt
3 Chain
4 FoW
3 Cbalance
3 Daze
leaves two slots in the maindeck, one of which usually goes to the 4th Daze (although I personally don't like this with the combo in the deck, and I'm currently running 2x Spell Snare).
My list runs Daze #4 and a Misdirection in the "slots"
I really think Daze is necessary in some metagames, especially ones with Goblins/Combo.
It is also great against the early Enchantress plays.
I suggested playing it main. You run half of a combo deck that needs 4 mana and at least one of them red to slowcombo and the other half of the deck is vulnerable to LD, too which Canadian Thresh/Landstill/SuiBlack/Goblins run. On top of that has alot of other targets against Landstill (Factories) and Affinity. Shutting of Vial also removes quite some pressure in the Goblin matchup... I think they are really that good maindeck in your meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
That leaves 3 slots. You maybe forgot to include the combo wincon? I've never actually played with this deck, so I'm wondering if it's really needed, instead of keeping a hand that can win given the game state, which may not be always possible, but /shrug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Yes, he did forget Lightning Storm. And I would say it IS vital since you can't win against a swarm of creatures which are going to bash your head in during the next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
It's not really too vulnerable to LD because of no wastes in the swan version (I hope), which leaves room for a few basics. I'm running three to have room for blood moons in the SB to shut down bad manabases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shugyosha
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...onvention+38th
2 UGr lists made top 8 and both decks had a little bit of tech that I think might be useful to the tempo thresh builds. Chain Lightning
A c/b threshold list usually contains 8 sorceries (4 ponder / 4 thoughtseize) Which is 4 more sorceries that are contained in a typical tempo thresh list. One thing about tempo thresh (at least for me) is that the goyf is usually pretty small because we only put lands and instants in the yard. Sometimes we can pick off a creature with a bolt or fire//ice which gives the goyf some more food, but usually we have to rely on the opponent to drop other card types in the yard.
We could take the normal tempo list and make the following swap.
-4 fire//ice
+4 chain lightning
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rushing River (customizable, i like EE here sometimes as well)
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
This change gives the deck a bit more reach, and it gives the goyf more food to chew on. Losing fire//ice would hurt because it really can be a useful card but i think the extra sorceries are more beneficial in the long run.
But fire/ice is such a great tool!!!
it really gives the deck 'reach' by removing potential blockers or working on the mana denial strategy.
Anyway, perhaps you may want to do:
-1 spell snare
-1 fire/ice
+2 chain lightning.
I think this could suffice, 8 bolts can be too much. Do you really feel your goyf is small?, I mean, relying on the opponent to fill his graveyard is not that bad considering our countermagic.
Lately, I've been having problems with big creatures in Aggro-loam (didn't think it was that popular) so this is the sideboard I'm currently playing:
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan grip
2 Tygron predator
2 Pyroclasm
3 Mind harness
2 Pyroblast
The harness works well against aggro-loam, survival,DS, RGbeats, the Rock and it can come in against mirror or other threshold variants. What do you think?
I am maindecking 2 pithing needles au lieu de bouncers as a cheap answer to survival, EE,pErnicious, etc.
Neither build that Top8ed was a Canadian Thresh list. Fire/Ice is consistently one of the best cards in that deck every time I play it and the tradeoff for the point or two of damage simply is not worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenalpow
I think 8 bolts + 2 bounce gives this deck tremendous reach. The bounce is there for those big creatures to allow you to punch through with that list bit of damage to finish off an opponent.
You only need to hit with a goyf about 3 times (4/5 goyf) and point 2 bolts at their head to drop them. Opponents usually do at least 2 dmg to themselves on fetchlands alone. Extra bolts remove attackers to make sure the goyfs or mongeese connect and the rest of the game you sit back and disrupt with permission and stifles.
I'll be testing this when i get home, I'll post later with some results.
Are 18 lands enough? Even more, four of them do not give us blue mana.. and are meant to be sacrificed asap.
I know that we have extremely low curve. But with 14 :u: sources only, the deck will mulligan hard, imho.
Nonetheless, that idea is interesting and I gonna try it in the future..
The deck never needs more than 3 mana to function, it can run at 1-2 with no real issues, the curve is quite low. The rivers are only used to finish up a game, they can remove those last couple blockers, bounce a humility or ghostly prison, or bounce a chalice and 3sphere to make sure the last couple bolts get in there.
Regarding the sorceries comment, I will refer you to a little part of my primer to answer that question.Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenalpow
Also remember that your sorceries also feed their Goyfs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Thresh Primer
As for Chain Lightning. I would not include this on the sole basis that it is a sorcery. This deck runs on so few lands that you need to keep all your mana available thought their turn to play counters, stifles and burn. Even with that being said, Ice is extremely useful as it can end the game. It provides mana denial, or taps down that huge finisher that is preventing you from swinging with Geese and Goyfs. The card has so many purposes, that I can't imagine cutting it for a simple burn spell.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will test this, I think it has potential against Loam and possibly Dragon Stompy. I have not tested this card yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironstickman
Chain Lightning just doesn't fit this deck. As has been said before, Fire/Ice is amazingly versatile, and it can often provide CA with a 2 for 1 as well.
On another note, I've been playing the swans list at my local shop with a bit of success. There aren't too many good thresh matchups around (lots of stax variants and stiflenoughts running around), but swans and counterbalance help that somewhat. I most recently went 2-1, losing in a tough 3 to Dragon Stompy. I was wondering how/what you guys SB, as I never made it to be able to cast trygon predator, and even krosan grip was lackluster. I'm fairly sure I could've won, but I was never able to fetch the correct basic land before blood moon came down in games 2 and 3. Any help?
I read the primer thoroughly and definitely took your analysis into consideration. Like i said in my original post, this is only an idea but i think it warrants testing. Fire//Ice is quite useful, we are in complete agreeance on that point, but every time i use it (fire//ice), i only point it at their dome. In my experience i think the change wouldn't make too much of a difference. Testing will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by goobafish
I'm supposed to have a long test session this weekend with my team, my teammate (a hardcore goblins supporter) and I are going to run our decks through the gauntlet, against ichorid, loam, landstill varients, thresh varients, dreadstill, goblins, enchantress, stax, and some other combo decks.
I'll let you know how the change works out, if it sucks I can always go back to fire//ice
So more than likely I'm going to play a version of threshold for GenCon, but its between thrash and the 4-color counterbalance top versions.
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice (Looking at Chain Lightning here possibly, still testing)
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rushing River (Possibly Wipe Away or Engineered Explosives here)
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Sorceries
4 Ponder
Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
My board is nearly set but I'm not sure what else i want to add, i feel the blasts and crypts are a lock, as well as at least 2 grips.
Ancient Grudge
Engineered Explosives (if they don't make it to the main)
Pithing Needle
Pyroclasm
Krosan Grip (+1 more)
Depending on the meta, you could also play CB + Top, which is good against a lot of jank/combo/the Thrash mirror. It's probably not worth boarding in against thresh, where you only have room to bring in KGrip.
In general, if I were you, I would play:
+1 KGrip
It's just sooo useful, against almost every deck.
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
You want to beat Dragon Stompy. You really do.
+2 Pyroclasm
With BEB and Clasm, you should steamroll goblins even if it's built to beat Thresh. You may not even need the clasms, and if you don't, I'd play Needle in there place so that you have more against Landstill.
You beat Dragon Stompy anyway. That deck has serious issues with Force of Will and Tarmogoyf, not to mention manabase inconsistency. I'd put the matchup at a solid 60/40 in your favor. If you want to beat that deck, just replace KGrip with Trygon Predator. My current sideboard looks like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
3 Pithing Needle
4 Red Blast
2 Pyroclasm
And under no circumstance do you cut Fire/Ice.
The problem is that yu have force only. They have 3Sphere, Chalice, Blood Moon, etc and only need to resolve 1 or 2. As for trygon predator, he's great but he must resolve before blood moon comes online and the artifacts start slowing down you cantripping (for lands, forces, etc). Its not unwinnable, but also not a good one imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
My original configuration looked like this
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
I'm pretty high on ancient grudge, i love pyroclasm, and I always try to find room for engineered explosives...sooo difficult....
You need one card in this matchup. Tarmogoyf. Dragon Stompy cannot handle a resolved Goyf without overcommiting to a rediculous degree. A lot of games come down to if you can handle the first disruption spell they play. If you can, you usually end up winning as your creatures are better than theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
Why do you want to run Grudge? What does your meta look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenalpow
If by "overcommitting" you mean "drop a Rakdos Pit-Dragon" or "drop an Arc-Slogger" (sometimes Gathan Raiders, Taurean Mauler, and Umezawa's Jitte can also step up to the challenge), then sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
Its GenCon, its going to be decks to beat, mixed in with some other proven archetypes that have fallen by the wayside, with a touch of some homebrew stuff that isn't great, but good.
This decks poor matchups are
Some versions of landstill (fluctuates between 40-60% depending on the version)
Ichorid - They can definitely crush us game 1
Aggro Loam - They can generate more card advantage than we can control, we have to win quickly or stop their development
W Stax - chalice @ 1 = ow
Anything that can sustain an active counterbalance and top - Thresh mirror, some of the new control decks..
So the deck wants to stop opposing counterbalances/top, it needs an answer for ichorid, it needs to be able to slow down the development of longer game decks like landstill or aggro loam, and it needs to be able to get out of the lock pieces that stax likes to drop on us.
4 Tormod's Crypt - Can shore up the ichorid matchup and slow down aggro loam's draw mechanism (i said slow, not stop)
4 red blasts - Helps the mirror and helps curb the card advantage generated by longer game blue control decks (landstill)
3 Krosan Grip - Can kill counterbalance, survival, scary lockpieces from stax
The last 4 slots are between
ancient grudge
engineered explosives
pyroclasm
pithing needle
Keep in mind, once they try for the first one (usually with the help of a Tomb or City) it can be dazed, and the land can be wasted which buys you time to find more counters. A few cards you are more than happy to let resolve, like all the equipments, and the creatures. The real issue cards are Blood Moon and Chalice, Chalice can be Spell Snared, so you save your forces and dazes for the Moon. Personally, I have never had too much trouble with the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by MULocke
@arsenal
Run Pyroclasms. They are great against Goblins, Ichorid and TES. They are really important to have in your board in case you run into a Weenie aggro deck.