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I would still count Spell Snare for the mid-late game, too, as it keeps it strength.
It's cheaper to snare a CB than wasting an EE for it and I'd prefer to save the WoG/EE for Mongoose and snare the Goyf instead.
It not only gains you tempo but saves you the "better" overall solutions for when you really need them.
"counterspell gets incrementally stronger" - Mister Agent
I strongly disagree with that statement. Counterspell has the same effectiveness early game as it does late game. I would agree that it becomes fundamentally easier to cast later game then early and thus in appearance is stronger, but to me minus the exception of come into play effects/ instants/ sorcery counterspell isn't truly any better then vindicate. This to me is because vindicate has the option to not only be a reaction based card, but it can also be proactive which are things that Landstill needs. cards like Vindicate, Vendillion clique, spell snare. They are all extremely powerful tools that also allow landstill to gain CA tempo quicker and more efficiently then say Counterspell which is at best a reactive 1-1 that is outshined by the second best counter in the format "spell snare" 10 fold.
Now for your argument against Negate. Negate's weakness is its lack of creature targeting. It is substantially better for landstills mana curver but it still does the same basic principle that counterspell has when it comes down to a reactive 1-1. I don't like either choice and I really encourage all landstill players to stay away from 2 drops as much as possible. EE should basicly be the only 2 drop in your deck other then Standstill.
Counterspell gets better as the stuff it counters gets better. Countering a second turn Piledriver is a lot weaker than a fifth turn SGC. It does get stronger later in the game.
Vendillion Clique is weak in Landstill. In a deck like Threshold, it is a nice disruption card that adds a 3 power flier to your clock. In Landstill, the body isn't really relevant, it just gives the opponent something to target with their removal. The effect isn't even that powerful. Thoughtseizing them and then making them draw is pretty weak at 3 mana.
Negate sucks. Well, it doesn't suck but when there is Counterspell in the format for the same mana, it sucks. Build your mana base correctly, fetch correctly, and mulligan correctly will allow you to get UU on turn two and WW on turn four.
Well I am glad some people still agree with me after not being able to post that much on here. Props to Jak.
Anyway, back on topic.
@Mossivo: I wasn't really suggesting that Counterspell was a bad early game card. Of course, counterspell is good in the early game if you have enough blue. However, against a deck like countertop; I'd rather have spell snare in the early game compared to counterspell. Especially, when you can still leave a land open for a daze when your responding to either a counterbalance or tarmogoyf. You don't really have a ton of room to maneuver around when your playing against good threshold players.
As for negate, you can pretty much counter most of the primary spells and more with spell snare. Especially with all of those playable two cc cards in this format spell snare just seems more practical to contemplate.
That example is poor because of the efficiency of spells in legacy. Game breaking spells in this format generally cost 4cc or less to be truly playable. Realistically if counterspell is most powerful late game then it would be a horrid choice to play in this metagame where spell snare IS the second best counter in the format because of the number of threats with cc4 or less games do not have the same inevitability that they once had. So counterspell in essence would be a poor choice to play, especially in a meta full of wasteland/ stifle/ blood moon "effects/ sinkhole that happen all on t1-2-3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Nice glass half-empty approach. You bother to drown out the card but you only briefly outline why said card could actually be slightly good. Anyone who plays landstill with ANY regularity understands why vendillion is impressive and its really throwing the card under a bus to say that its just another removable body/bad thoughtseize. You obviously haven't tested it at all, and I would really recommend you remove your head from ass before stating that its strictly bad for this archtype/meta.Quote:
Vendillion Clique is weak in Landstill. In a deck like Threshold, it is a nice disruption card that adds a 3 power flier to your clock. In Landstill, the body isn't really relevant, it just gives the opponent something to target with their removal. The effect isn't even that powerful. Thoughtseizing them and then making them draw is pretty weak at 3 mana.
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Negate sucks. Well, it doesn't suck but when there is Counterspell in the format for the same mana, it sucks. Build your mana base correctly, fetch correctly, and mulligan correctly will allow you to get UU on turn two and WW on turn four.
Negate doesn't suck for dakkon's deck because of the extra removal he runs to deal with the lack of hard creature counter he has. Negate is easier on his curve so that he doesn't have problems with stifle/wasteland/blood moon/ vindicate/sinkhole ect. For a quick referance its post 1329.
When was I disputing Spell Snare? I think it SHOULD be run. If you didn't understand that well, I will repeat. Counterspell is better than Negate. I don't care if you run more removal. That is like saying you want to play Duress over Thoughtseize because you run sooo much removal. Build a better mana base if you can't get to the UU.
Okay, tell me what Vendillion clique does in Landstill. I really want to hear why you think it is so good. Do you play it at instant speed to block an attacker? Do you play it after they draw to get rid of their Goyf? What?
I apologize. Snarkiness removed.
@Jak
In mono blue, without a doubt CS is better than Negate. I'm playing MWC. Why on earth would CS be better than Negate in MWC? This discussion may be better suited for that thread. Saying "you don't care" means you are ignoring my testing and performance results and you are also refusing to collect your own data. I'm defending the card because it's been working well for me. I'm not saying you can't design a mana base that can support UU and WW consistently when facing mana denial aggro; I'm just taking another approach.
Duress vs Thoughtseize? As a vintage player, I played Duress over Thoughtseize when Gush was legal. You know why? Because TS sucks with Fastbond. So yes, a card can have its "drawback" alleviated depending on the deck.
Just a friendly reminder to keep your heads cool while discussing what particular type of fantasy-themed collectible gaming card to stick in your favourite pile of fantasy-themed collectible gaming cards.
There are a variety of uses for Vendillion. I encourage you to test extensively in permission slots or utility slots and see for yourself. It's also a random game winner based on post board lack of removal. It's also easily sideable if you need it to be against decks that run mogg fanatic or spot removal like fire/ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
If your deck is MWC... please go post in a different thread then. Anyway, I looked at your list and your mana base could easily be made to support it. However, you want to take a different approach :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by dakkon
This is Legacy where creatures are much more important and that is why having Counterspell over Negate is huge. But like you said, your deck isn't Landstill so whatever.
Mossivo
I have tested it and it was just lacking. I would rather run a better win condition or I would rather run better disruption. It is that simple. Hell, I would run Esper Charm over it.Quote:
There are a variety of uses for Vendillion. I encourage you to test extensively in permission slots or utility slots and see for yourself. It's also a random game winner based on post board lack of removal. It's also easily sideable if you need it to be against decks that run mogg fanatic or spot removal like fire/ice.
Clique is proactive disruption, which is exactly why it cant be ran over Counterspell in Landstill. Clique, if anything, should only be ran in addition to 3 Spell Snares/Counterspells and 4 Force of Wills.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Hi,
I on a completly other note... I tested yersterday with my Wish build against Merfolk. The intresting part was that we both sided out our Standstills...
I play a classic Wis MD with 24 lands with 4 Factory, Dustbowl, Tolaria West and Academy Ruins. One Dragon and 2 Decree of Justice.
My reason for boarding it out, it forces me to try and stop a turn 1 AEther Vial or having 4 dead cards in my hand. On top of that has this deck enough other ways of gaining card-advantage, Wrath of God, EE.
His reasoning was, that I could play under Standstill better then he( He played 4 Vials, 4 Wastes and 3 Factories.
My exact boarding was -4 Standstill, -1 Counterspell, +3 Engineerd Plague( only room for 2) +2 Ajani Goldmane.
How would you guys board?
BB
Just like you did. You could leave one random Standstill in for when you have wrath-cleared the board on turn 12 to maintain your dominant position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
-4 SS is just fine though.
I keep standstills in in nearly every matchup. It´s our best card and you should always keep 2-3 in. Like geoff said, I´d side out Forces and Snares for as much removal as you can get. For reference, here´s my list:
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [OV] Plains
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tundra
3 [6E] Island (3)
1 [10E] Swamp (2)
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [AP] Vindicate
1 [7E] Counterspell
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Open Slot
F.E. against merrows I´d side like this: -4 Force -1 CS -2 Relic -1 Snare + 4 PLagues +4 Finks
I really like your build. Though is finks > ajani? in your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
After a long time where I didn't play any tournaments I changed my decklist. I was very happy with the old one but there are some new cards which have to be played but I'm not very happy with it. First, the list:
Lands (23):
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
More Mana + win (2):
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Crucible of Worlds
Win (4):
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Draw (8):
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
Counter (9):
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Removal (14):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
2 Vindicate
2 Humility
Sideboard (15):
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Runed Halo
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Meddling Mage
(Old decklist found here)
1. The manabase
With MD Vindicate I need black mana almost every game and it's not a little splash for SB Extirpate and a third colour for Extirpate. The manabase looks very fragile and I'm playing only 23 lands. The old one has seven basic lands and 24 lands. I played against Dragon Stompy and some kind of mana denial fish (Stifle, Wasteland and Extirpate) and did not have any problems. That was very cool but now i fear to be colourscrewed too often only by my own bad manabase.
2. Vindicate
I only wished for Return to Dust (and sometimes Extirpate) so I decided to play without a wishboard to have a better use of my sideboard. Because of the lack of artifact and enchantment removal I added Vindicate. Playing Vindicate on a problematic Artifact/Enchantment sounds cooler than wishing for a four-mana card. But Vindicate requires a heavier black-splash and I want to play a basic Swamp because Vindicate is my only solution against a pre-board resolved Blood Moon.
3. Blue cards
Only 17 left (over twenty in the old list). It makes FoW suck.
4. Crucible, Eternal Dragon, DoJ and Elspeth
In my opinion DoJ and Elspeth are too good to play only one but with Dragon and Crucible as alternative winoptions its way too much. I don't want to cut Dragon and Crucible because my manabase would be more fragile.
Any suggestments to improve this list? I want to be prepared against Counterbalance, manadenial and random aggro-decks in the MD. Against Combo, Loam and Survival it should be enough to play something in SB. I think Ichorid, Sui and Goblins aren't played much in my meta (Iserlohn, Germany).
Another way to answer Blood Moon is to run a basic Plains, a basic Island and have a non basic in play, that way, you can cast EE for 3 to destroy Blood Moon.
Thats one of those plays that makes you smile alittle as a landstill player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
The other one would be Relic'ing your own instant
aka
Fof
Swords
Force of will
spell snare. ect. ect.
and then wishing for it. That ALWAYS is fun to do to mantain control of a game. It's soo funny to do.
or just the play on my signature. I just did it for the first time recently. It was the ballz.
Mine is use Ajani to make 20+/20+ token.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
lol's Yeah that can be cute. I've won once like that and it was funny that they could just do nothing, but loose. haha.
I went 4-2 placing 10th at the 4x Tropical Island event at Off the Wall Games Hadley MA.
Decklist: I have how I sbed for each round if you want to see it.
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique - It was only relevant against landstill, but it earned its 1-of spot
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare - Pure buttsecks
3 [AP] Vindicate - A little clunky at the tournament but always good
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds - So good as a 1-of
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction - Did you ever know your my hero?
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast - Good call. First 3 rounds were against red.
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TE] Perish - No relevant once
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles - The 4th plague. It's amazing against merfolk.
Round 1: Justin aka Sunshine Mono Red Burn 1-2
Game 1: He leads with chain chain and I go the beatdown route with a mishra. I vindictae/wasteland him down to 0 lands and I feel confident. I try to cast an Elspeth with a single white mana. Game ends 0-7 life.
Game 2: I win with double mage on Rift bolt and Fireblast and lots of counter magic.
Game 3: I probably shouldn't have countered 2x PoP which would have totaled 5 damage if I fetched and failed to find a land. I only saw 1 piece of hate. If I hate drawn another blast I might have gotten there.
Round 2: I forget his name Dragonstompy 2-0
Game 1: I open up fetch land, tundra, snare, e dragon, stp and stuff. I get there on a turn 1 mountain pass on my opponents end. He drops Trinisphere and I am able to play around it.
Game 2: I counter/destroy 6 moon effects. Elspeth beats.
Round 3: Caleb 4c Survival 2-1
Game 1: He chains discard until I am holding 2 land and proceeds to draw 7 land in a row and I chain standstills.
Game 2: I go the beats route and try to win fast. Choke slows me down. I lose with him at 6.
Game 3: He chains discard again and resolves a choke + magus. I rip the swamp like a champ for my 3rd untapped land drop ee and clear his board. I fof at one point and see bs x 2, stp? land and elspeth. He puts elspeth by itself and I later chain bs into put back to land, cycle e dragon, bs for the snare to stop survival and seal the game.
He was beating himself up during most of the games saying "play mistake" and such so no clue.
Round 4: Geoff "Mother Fucking" Smelski I'll be honest I was a little scared but knew this would not be easy. He was playing Mono-Red Landstill.
Game 1: We joke back and forth about this game taking forever and he drops turn 1 lackey. I almost shit a brick. The look on my face must have been priceless. Thank god I mulliganed and kept a stp hand. He does what goblins do best g1. Win.
Game 2: I drop t2 standstill and he drops 9 straight land and think to myself, "fuck he transformed into like monored burn." He eot grips a factory and I discard 2 land. He plays chief + pile driver. I don't blast either because I figured I would be ok behind a factory + plague. I try to go for standstill and he grips my plague in response. He chains ringleader, into matron, matron guys. I rip shackles and take warchief and block some dudes, swords another and get there with a decree for 6 to block his onslaught and swing with his own warchief.
Game 3: I board out vindicate like a retard but more on that later. I just remember at one point him chaining ringleaders like it was his job off double gauntlet of might. I stabilize behind some luck and we go to top deck mode and he needs to draw a banefire to finish me. I'm gripping double cs and he says "I'm at one," I honestly thought he said, "I won." So I showed him my hand and he says, "no." I feel like a retard but hey it happens I guess. I there with elspeth and man lands.
Round 5: Originally merfolk but there was a mispair so I got repaired against Jared (Jaynel) playing some jank 5c survival I'd never seen before. 1-2
Game 1: I force a t1 imp, he plays t2 imp and rides it to the win with little resistance from me.
Game 2: I keep a hand of double relic, swamp, and other stuff that costs blue/white. My board ends up being mage, relic x 2, plague x 2 and I still almost lose.
Game 3: I force a t1 unmask to save mage and he drops imp. I play mage naming therapy and lost my ee @ 0 (holding another ee) to ancient grudge. I didn't draw the hate but atleast the games were fun and interactive. Jared is definitely a strong magic player.
Round 6: I think his name is brent. He goes to UMass and played landstill with jace instead of fof, vindicate, ajani main deck, cb sb, no e dragon and no crucible. 2-0
Game 1: I enjoy playing the mirror more than any other match in match. These matches show it. He spellsnares a t2 standstill, good thing because I was slow playing a factory. I draw off 3 standstills because of double mishra.
Game 2: I swords his factory and we stall the board with 2 of his mages naming swords/elspeth and my mage naming wrath with 4 tokens on the board. He swing into me and I kill the mage naming elspeth and proceed to draw "5" cards off a fof after the board was clear. 1st pile: snare x 2, stp, land 2nd pile: ee. I have ruins in play and eot put ee on top to kill his jace and win through a top war. At one point I had triple force, double cs, double snare. Sorry, I drew like a champ.
I finished 10th. No 12 pointers made top 8. It was a 51 person tournament.
Slops:
No top 8 for team awesome.
Pat losing to burn playing staxs.
Getting to Hadley before the store actually opened.
Getting told that I'll get punched in the face if I ever said, "Must be nice ever again," Psht fuck you buddy MUST BE NICE.
Telling people I quit playing landstill. I thought long and hard about it.
Props:
Getting sowers/mutavaults (1 foil)/oaths/orchards/null rods
winning an ebay auction while driving down the highway
going 4-2 with a deck I was going to stop playing. I played Geoff, it was a sign from the landstill gods saying to me, "Son, standstill will always be the best draw engine in legacy."
Kevin another solid store
Jaynel and I finishing 9th and 10th respectively
Switching to blue blast instead of halo for this tournament and it being AMAZING.
Brian for splitting in top 4.
Hello everyone, I've been reading this thread quite a bit for a long time and my deck is doing fairly well. I have a couple of questions though. Regarding the land base, would replacing Tundra with Hallowed Fountain be fine? Or would that life loss and come into play tapped by crucial?
Also, how do you handle rogue decks, for example a deck that stacks "cannot be the target of spells or abilites" creatures. For example: Silhana Ledge Walker or Troll Ascetic? Also, any advice against a new scepter/chant cb deck that's been around for a bit?
The lifeloss matters. But if you're asking if you replace a Tundra with a Fountain, that would be fine. Two might be stretching it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by rbpong721
Chainer's Edict, Perish, Humility and Wrath of God.Quote:
Also, how do you handle rogue decks, for example a deck that stacks "cannot be the target of spells or abilites" creatures. For example: Silhana Ledge Walker or Troll Ascetic?
Just outplay them. It's control vs. control. Also, run board Krosan Grips in against those decks.Quote:
Also, any advice against a new scepter/chant cb deck that's been around for a bit?
@Rockout: That 1-of FoF makes me cringe.
So you would run FoF as a 4 of? or at least fit 3 in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
@Citrus-God: Dude you have no idea. I have been playing 3 fof and 3 bs for so long but I saw fof in every survival game, every goblins game, twice against burn, and twice against ds. So, I'll keep it at 1 fof 1 clique for now.
@rbpong721: Not having tundras forces you to fetch basics more often against decks that it would matter like goblins, burn and so on. You can almost look at hallowed fountain as helping you. Kicking you in the but when you want to fetch a "tundra." Rogue decks? Vindicate there lands and board in perish.
It's funny that you mentioned that. I recently cut Counterspells so that I could run Cunning Wishes again. I still have Spell Snares maindecked of course. While playtesting it, I realized how often I won the game whenever I resolved an FoF and chained into more ridiculous crap. So I threw in a 3rd copy. Now my blue suite is 4 BS, 4 Standstill, 3 FoF (with a 4th one in the board to wish for), 3 Spell Snare, 4 FoW and 3 Cunning Wish. Oh, my god, my deck went busted in testing. Also, this is how I dig for my protection spells, removal, counters and Elspeth. All those together makes whatever bomb I drop into a game ending bomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
I know you disagree with me, but im still heaping on you for that 4th spell snare. It makes life soo nice. Especially when you counter multiple bobs/ teegs ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Sadly, two of my fofs against goblins on sunday and a fof against dragonstompy 2 weeks ago results in a total of 4 + 3 + 5 = 12 lands but yes fof usually spells gg in most chases.
I can't see ever dropping below 3 counterspell. How the heck do you win counter wars?
They play a spell tapping out and you just counterspell it away with the only resistence being force and then you force their force and drop elspeth in their mouth.
I will only ever disagree with you if you said that I should replace Counterspell with Negate.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I start the first one with an FoF which I let them counter. Then I Cunning Wish for Extirpate.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
I think if I was running more wraths and humility main deck I would care less about creatures and run negate.
I still run 2 Humilities and 3 Wraths, and I still use my Counterspells to counter Goyfs and Mongeese late game. Had those Counterspells been Negates, I think I would have died. And believe me, against NLU, it's nothing but grueling attrition wars; the topdeck wars matter at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
That is true. Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
@Joel: Yes, you finally convinced me to run blasts out of the board. The local meta has been shifting heavy to green/red and it's been pissing me off because I hate losing to goblins/goyf sligh/burn/dragonstompy.
Shouldn't you be running Circle of Protection: Red then? It's way better than BEBs if you're concentrating on beating those decks. Against Dragon Stompy, you just need 1 White source under Blood Moon to operate with it, against Goyf Sligh and Burn it protects you from Price of Progress and Vexing Shushers can't do much against your CoP: Red and against Vial Goblins, this let's you keep Standstills in post-board.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Ew I dont agree with that. It doesnt stop lacker or burning wish. 2 cards youd rather disrupt and win games then prevent and lose them. cop green is handy because it stops goyf/goose/genitus and it single handedly does it as a random 1 of. But cop red to me is good under restrictions, those restrictions being that it doesnt do what you truly want it to do. Stop red. Blue elemental blast stops red. Stops red dead. It should be relabelled S.R.D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
BTW I Quote you rockout. Deal with it. :)
p.s. I never got my shiny red tool box A..
Burning Wish isn't a concern because he didn't mention Aggro Loam being a problem. Lackey gets answered by EE, Swords and FoW. You have 11 cards that can end up in your opening just to answer Lackey.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
2 cards youd rather disrupt and win games then prevent and lose them.
From what I've seen, CoP: Red is only against Threshold. CoP: Red is at least versatile in that metagame.Quote:
cop green is handy because it stops goyf/goose/genitus and it single handedly does it as a random 1 of.
It's better against Dragon Stompy, it's better against Goyf Sligh, it's arguably better against Vial Goblins. If they see Vindicate maindeck, they won't be boarding in Krosan Grips, meaning this is your chance to board in an Enchantment. And even if they did, they've slowed down their own deck just to get even against you.Quote:
But cop red to me is good under restrictions, those restrictions being that it doesnt do what you truly want it to do.
[quote]Stop red. Blue elemental blast stops red. Stops red dead. It should be relabelled S.R.D./QUOTE]
Doesn't stop the opponent from playing Vexing Shusher, then proceeding to play Price of Progress.
[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
If your on the draw against goblins and they see lackey here are your answers:
force
swords
on the play your answers go up to
ee
force
swords
mishra
but the safest answers without any doubt are
swords
blast
and thats without being on the play or the draw mattering. This also allows you to save your ee for vial, as well as force for ringleader. Ringleader IS the gamebreaker for them, and countering that wins you the game MOST games.
A bit confused. Clarify colors for me.Quote:
From what I've seen, CoP: Red is only against Threshold. CoP: Red is at least versatile in that metagame.
Your right cop red is better then cop green against goyf sligh, for the most part because it stops the burn and some of their creatures. Depending on the model this makes a huge difference compared to cop green. As for blast I would still take blast ahead of this because atleast your seeing the information they have in hand even if its there, I would rather know what im up against then lack information and let it barrage me because they see a pithing needle.Quote:
It's better against Dragon Stompy, it's better against Goyf Sligh, it's arguably better against Vial Goblins. If they see Vindicate maindeck, they won't be boarding in Krosan Grips, meaning this is your chance to board in an Enchantment. And even if they did, they've slowed down their own deck just to get even against you.
Quote:
Stop red. Blue elemental blast stops red. Stops red dead. It should be relabelled S.R.D.
I havent seen shusher since I saw it in survival mod's a while back.Quote:
Doesn't stop the opponent from playing Vexing Shusher, then proceeding to play Price of Progress.
They only run 4 Lackeys. Why are you concerned by this? There are only 4 copies of Lackeys. At least if they resolved Vial and you have CoP: Red instead of BEB, you could stall until you find an EE or Vindicate to destroy the AEther Vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I meant to say only CoP: G is good against decks like Threshold... in fact, I think that's all it is good against; Threshold.Quote:
A bit confused. Clarify colors for me.
And Burn, and Dragon Stompy.Quote:
Your right cop red is better then cop green against goyf sligh, for the most part because it stops the burn and some of their creatures.
Why would they board a reactive card against a reactive deck? If they board needle against you, just cast Vindicate and/or EE and keep it off the board. If they board Krosan Grip against you, they have no library manipulation; just play more copies of CoP: R to get preemptively answer Grip and stall until you can hardcast a DoJ for 8 or resolve an Ajani.Quote:
As for blast I would still take blast ahead of this because atleast your seeing the information they have in hand even if its there, I would rather know what im up against then lack information and let it barrage me because they see a pithing needle.
You obviously havent crashed into Vial Goblins and Sligh galore.Quote:
I havent seen shusher since I saw it in survival mod's a while back.
I often find myself on the draw against goblins with t1 lackey. Call me random, but I like to keep things on the + side if I can.Quote:
They only run 4 Lackeys. Why are you concerned by this? There are only 4 copies of Lackeys. At least if they resolved Vial and you have CoP: Red instead of BEB, you could stall until you find an EE or Vindicate to destroy the AEther Vial.
and survival/ elves/ anything running goyf is reason for it to be sideboarded in minus the mirror.Quote:
I meant to say only CoP: G is good against decks like Threshold... in fact, I think that's all it is good against; Threshold.
Ill explain burn later, as for d stompy yes I agree its good against them. Funny thing I saw pithing needle in a couple of d stompy lists in recent tourney experiance. Im not saying its good, im saying its there. I also have seen it relentlesly in burn list sb's.Quote:
And Burn, and Dragon Stompy.
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Why would they board a reactive card against a reactive deck? If they board needle against you, just cast Vindicate and/or EE and keep it off the board. If they board Krosan Grip against you, they have no library manipulation; just play more copies of CoP: R to get preemptively answer Grip and stall until you can hardcast a DoJ for 8 or resolve an Ajani.
My goblins matchup is pretty nuts personally, and sligh is also good even if they board in teegs + blast + shusher. I think i'd be fine. As for him he runs vindicate. He's an "outsider" to us :). I think he'd have more of a problem as his sligh matchup has to be just awefull. He has no out to slighs burn other then to counter it/ take it to the dome but he is slightly stronger with his removal suit I believe.Quote:
You obviously havent crashed into Vial Goblins and Sligh galore.
You've seen my list. against sligh I personally just side out the vendillions/ for blasts and maybe add in the path to exile for a doj but thats about it. Im not sure at the moment exactly. Present a sligh list and ill show how i side accordingly.
I tried doing that against Thresh, but then I realized I didn't need Krosan Grips to win. I also found out my problem against Thresh isn't Counterbalance, it's Goyf. I keep those off the board and assemble EE + Academy, I win.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Most Elves lists just swarm in packs bigger than Goblins and just overruns you with 30 1/1s, Survival runs maindeck Enchantment hate anyway because it's Survival.Quote:
and survival/ elves/ anything running goyf is reason for it to be sideboarded in minus the mirror.
They can board Needles against me, I probably won't care. That match up is damn easy.Quote:
Ill explain burn later, as for d stompy yes I agree its good against them. Funny thing I saw pithing needle in a couple of d stompy lists in recent tourney experiance. Im not saying its good, im saying its there. I also have seen it relentlesly in burn list sb's.
That's why Circle of Protection: Red can be good in his build. That and Ajani can go a long way.Quote:
My goblins matchup is pretty nuts personally, and sligh is also good even if they board in teegs + blast + shusher. I think i'd be fine. As for him he runs vindicate. He's an "outsider" to us :). I think he'd have more of a problem as his sligh matchup has to be just awefull. He has no out to slighs burn other then to counter it/ take it to the dome but he is slightly stronger with his removal suit I believe.
Most Sligh Lists are really random. Just keep it in the general of 4 Goyfs and 4 Price of Progress and 52 others.Quote:
You've seen my list. against sligh I personally just side out the vendillions/ for blasts and maybe add in the path to exile for a doj but thats about it. Im not sure at the moment exactly. Present a sligh list and ill show how i side accordingly.
I think you should keep Cliques in against Sligh. It's mostly a 2-1 if anything.