How did Oath feel?
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How did Oath feel?
I liked it. With 4 in I got to pump my goyfs several times today by playing a second one, I got a guy from left field when I cast a Lili off of a Swamp, Plains and karakas. It made my land drops smooth, found me pressure or answers in the form of Liliana and Elspeth. I think it does some good things. Anyone else trying it?
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I'm interested in trying Oath. I've found that if I play too high of a density of instants and sorceries, I end up playing midrange but without the better topdecks in the late game. Here's what I'm brewing so far:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Siege Rhino
4 Oath of Nissa
1 Sylvan Library
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
22 Land
Between Oath and the lack of Bob, I'd probably like to wedge 1 Shriekmaw in there. But I'm already on 61 cards.
I've been trying it out and have been enjoying it quite a bit. Smooths land draws and threats, does make Lili easier to cast but that hasn't really come up for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I'm currently on this 4c craziness and Oath (and list design) seems good enough to make the 4c work.
Warning: Crazy shit below. Still refining how it works. I found stoneforge + equips really screw up the way I play it, but that I still like/require the Etutor sideboard and prefer to run Swords as anti-burn and other good stuff.
-18-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Magus of the Moon
-10-
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
-12-
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
-20 lands-
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
-Sideboard-
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Electrickery
1 Engineered Explosives or Electrickery
1 Cabal Therapy or Burn hate
EDIT: Btw, it's been super enjoyable against fair decks. I haven't gotten to test this 4c list against combo, but it was doing better against combo than fair lists when I was first starting it up. I think after I decide on the right dual-land composition it'll work quite well.
For what it's worth, I named my list "Uma Thurman". You know....keep you like an Oath...sheesh.
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So I got to play aforementioned list to 2-1 last night. Beating Belcher (Thank you White!), Zombardment, and losing to D&T.
Belcher: E-Tutor is good. Lots of hate is good
G1 - I could've thoughtseized but assumed he was a fair deck. 16 gobbos.
G2 - I have E-Tutor and Canonist. He can't Gobbo or he dies, a lock builds around those and Revoker. I may decay an LED this game while he's navigating.
G3 - I have E-Tutor and Thoughtseize. He could've gobbo'd but opts to wait a turn or so for Charbelcher. I SEize the belcher, drop a canonist, tutor the Explosives, drop a Chalice.. etc..
Zombardment:
G1 - Double-Pfire lock while I wait for a threat. Magus is stuck in my hand all game due to PFire.
G2 - It's a bit grindy, but Blossom does its thing as our Liliana's lez out grinding on eachother and he's casting lingering souls. Containment priest beats for the win.
D&T: Games are a bit hazy.
G1 - I would've won off of Blossom but he had mangara in hand (Great.) We both draw garbagy for awhile and I lose the "no one doing anything interesting" fest.
G2 - I'm getting ported heavily and he's gotten a pair of wastelands. He lands early RiP and I have double Goyf at that point. I eventually draw #3, casting them as inevitable blockers. Holding me off black for a super long time due to RiP and Ports, he eventually lands all three equips, two of which I decay. This game went forever and due to having all duals I get stuck with magus in hand and no way to put beats to the other side of the board other than a DRS, who is competing with my Grove for damage.
-Notes-
* Being ported a bunch and Magus being dead in hand every game I've decided to switch to Mindcensor. Seems better for combo in practice, doesn't anti-combo with myself, gets around Port, good against fair decks in general (GSZ, SFM, fetches.) It could be argued to go to Tidehollow Sculler instead, but I like the color-lightness and Flash. I'd probably try Containment Priest before Sculler honestly.
* Mana was good all games, never missed my colors. Only had a single mulligan completely due to Oaths' reliability next to DRS. I'm putting a Warmth in the side for Burn.
* Only other thing to note is that I've realized that (at least locally) I should be siding out Goyf against D&T. They always RiP me and I honestly don't need him. They have to bring it in due to PFire and it's basically acting as a 3-for-1 in the game above. By moving to Mindcensor I have less to side out against D&T, allowing me to side out Goyfs/1-3 thoughtseize instead of Magus/2-3Thoughtseize. For completeness, list is below:
Punishing Junk:
-18-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Aven Mindcensor
-10-
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
-12-
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Thoughtseize
-20-
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
-SB-
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Containment Priest
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Warmth
More Punishing Junk brewing; list as above with Magus -> Mindcensor, went to 61 cards with an Aura Shards in the Main (wanted to try it, it's similar to decay in some MUs.) 2-1 again, beating Elves, Burn, and losing to RUG Delver?!
Sideboard: -1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Humility (unsure about this; I think Aura Shards here may be ok [or garbage])
MU 1 - Elves
* G1 - I mull to 6, he mulls to 5. I remove his first dude, Revoke H. Druid, drop Rabblemaster and beat him to death in a couple turns.
* G2 - He goes first, gets a T2 glimpse with nothing on board IIRC, gets 12+ elves. No's next turn for ~200 damage.
* G3 - I don't quite remember T1/T2. I think it was something into Containment Priest or Revoker on H Druid. T3 I get E.Plague on Elves for a quick 2-for-1 and follow it with Canonist. He's quickly locked out.
MU 2 - Burn
I know he's on burn so I wanted an aggressive hand.
* G1 - I have Thoughtseize, Goyf, Goyf, Rabblemaster. Neat! I Seize Eidolon and have a 3/4 or bigger Goyf T2. T3 I DRS->Goyf and begin attacking. I don't remember much else; I think he dies
* G2 - I get stuck under Vortex and we have a close game since I don't remove it but have Rabblemaster hitting for a bunch IIRC. I think he has a vexing devil at some point that trades with a goyf? It all melds together.
* G3 - He has a 3-creature hand and it doesn't work out. IIRC it's DRS -> Rabblemaster -> DRS + other stuff vs. his stuff.
MU 3 - RUG
* G1 - My hand is slightly shakey on lands and has triple Revoker. I should've mulled but .. I didnt? I had Plow and could cast everything, thought it'd work out lol. I think it ends with me desperately casting a bitterblossom; he stifles the token, i cast a second one, he bolts me and swings with a pair of Gooses.
* G2 - More what you'd expect it to be like. He has to FoW stuff while I land nasty things.
* G3 - A back and forth occurs but he had a normal goyf and a goose while I have 2/2's and a punishing fire. Sad times. What's worse? I stalled with a Goyf for a second but he had a dismember still from earlier I had forgotten about. Being 4/5 at the moment was annoying since I drew Canonist later.
SB: +1 Rip, +1 Tutor, +2 Canonist; -4 Revoker
Felt alright. Still figuring out what to do with the Mindcensor slot. He ate a Delver and had to be FoW'd in another game so they could still fetch lands (all on the stack.) That said, I think I could swap
-1 Aura shards, -3 Mindcensor
for
+1 QPM, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 GSZ
Giving me better storm game, more Enchant/Artifact outs (including more ways out from a CB lock), a Goyf-stall breaker and more virtual Goyfs/DRS for various occasions. I could probably swap a land or an Oath for an Arbor. The above could also let me drop a piece of sideboard hate or two as well; given that a lot of the sideboard interacts with Dredge/Storm/Elves.
Guys, i started brewing rock deck list which is optimised mostly to beat new eldrazi menace, and doesn't loose potential against other archetypes. It utilizes most powerful ramp and land destruction options available in legacy. Most spells dodges COTV(1), and guys are bigger then theirs. Since mox diamonds are card disadvantage, full set of painful truths and 2 copies of sylvan library are here to replenish hand. This is sample decklist:
4x Deathrite shaman
4x Tarmogoyf (I'm even considering swaping this slot for +1x mox diamond and +3 siege rhino)
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Mox diamond
4x Abrupt decay
4x Painful truths
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Sylvan library
1x Life from the loam
3x Hymn to tourach
4x Wasteland
1x Horizon canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of ith
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Swamp
4x Verdant catacombs
4x Marsh flats
sb: Still wokring on it.
Are there anybody interested in brewing similar build? any opinion and advice are welcome.
I concur that The Rock is a great place to be if the meta becomes overrun with Eldrazi.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
The combination of versatile answers in Plow/Vindicate, discard, and men who can brawl with them like Knight and Tarmogoyf sounds like a good plan. I'd also want Loam in the 75 to Waste them back into the oblivion they came from.
Would SFM be a better option than goyf due to the lifegain of the equipment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
I always find goyf so blah in rock...
Spending two turns (turn 2 and 3) to setup batterskull is slow against eldrazi. Also, with turn#2 SFM you expose your equipment to be TKS-ed away. Goyf is 2 mana investment, fast, and he can be 4/5 or 5/6 very quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
@Seraphix
Yes, Rock is great place to begin brewing with eldrazi in mind. Having 8 mana accelerators, deck is constructed to have brutal and explosive openings. I'm even considering to max out on mox diamonds, and shaving 1 goyf maybe. I don't know if is this a smart move, but opening with land/mox diamond/deathrite shaman proceeding with mix of vindicate/painful truths/wasteland/sylvan library/hymn to tourach/life from the loam still on turn 1/2 can leave any deck behind. Of course, it's not point spending whole hand on ramp turn 1/2 and then stare at empty hand with 0 business. But being able to play early vindicate/wasteland/hymn to tourach, cripple their mana and resources, and not loosing tempo IS business.
I've been in the opposite place. I've been getting more and more aggro so I can close matches out. It's been a lot less about mediocre card advantage and more about just winning on board quickly. It's been liberating to be able to threaten T4 wins rather than threaten maybe attaching a thing to a dude and OH SHIT, I lost 6 mana to a 1-mana spell! I get she's good; but I've found it's been going a lot better without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Since I'm posting; played to a 2-2 the other day :( :
MU1 - ANT 0-2
G1 - He's on a mix of decks, so I didn't know what he was on. I keep a stable but fair hand with Thoughtseize. I TS and take his only acceleration. I have Lili and Rabble, I choose rabble (but it wouldn't matter) as he finds several pieces of accel this turn (T3) and he kills me.
G2 - I keep a mediocre hand IMO; with natural Teeg -> Liliana, but no T1 plays. Teeg gets disfigured and he goes off. I would've preferred to mull to two cards (I side in 10; 3 tutor, 2 canonist, 1 chalice, 1 cage, 1 rip, 1 EE, 1 Plague; swapping most of the removal.)
MU2 - Miracles 2-1
G1 - I put a load of pressure on him with Revoker, Liliana, and others, and start casting 3-drops through Counterbalance. Rabble is the finisher as I swing for 9.
G2 - Long drawn out game where I kill 2 Jaces, 2 Mentors, a Counterbalance, get my Chalice on 1 teared, get my Bitterblossom Weared (snapcaster), and I start drawing 2-drop dudes while playing PFire tricks to keep him wasting mana. I eventually get locked with Jace + Mentor + CB + Top. Our hero dies a sad death. I have Aura Shards in play but since I didn't have Arbor and I didn't have a 3-drop; I couldn't land something.
G3 - I drop Revoker, DRS, and Goyf (who is a 6/7.) I swing for 9 before I get RiPed. I continue swinging for 3 as he defends himself from Rabblemaster
MU3 - Lands 0-2
G1 - I fetch basics but get locked under Exploration, double port, and call the game when he has enough mana to keep me locked while doing other things. I play the early game because I have a 5/6 goyf; but after swinging twice he finds a Maze; then another Maze, etc..
G2 - He has the nuts; and it's sad. I start with nothing; he Diamond->something. I Revoke the diamond. He does something irrelevant (second grove?) and I canonist to speed up the clock. Still nothing interesting. I now cast chalice on 2 (blocking Loam, Pfire, and most other things I'd care about.) I hold bridge waiting for him to try Depths. He does, I bridge while swinging for 4 some more. He has the grip in hand and wins. Grumble. Chalice on 2 and E-Bridge + Lili in hand felt pretty good; but without plow I couldn't interact with the token.
MU4 - Zombardment 2-1
G1 - He gets double lingering souls and a lot of removal (we're both at 25ish mid game.) I can't Pfire 8 dude that fast.
G2 & G3 - Goyfs do all the heavy lifting while Bitterblossom and similar take the removal. GSZ -> Goyf felt good.
Not a lot to say. Am figuring out what I'll do about Lands and adding an Arbor to the main; probably in place of an Oath, but maybe in place of a Lily.
That looks pretty cool. Eldrazi does get crushed by land hate. 2x Wasteland usually shuts the door on 'em. We don't get Brainstorm to find more, but we can just run more land hate, and Knight can help Waste them.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
I'm surprised to see no Sink Hole. Not sure what I'd take out for it, but it seems like it would fit right in here. Maybe shave 1x Truths, 3x Hymn to Tourach for them?
Sinkhole is very linear, and is bad topdeck in mid/late game, well so is hymn to tourach. But hymn is 2for1, and vindicate is never bad topdeck. I could see 1x sinkhole (as a 5th vindicate) instead of one copy of painful truths, but again, i want to be loaded with cards which refresh my hand. For sideboard i'm considering 4x chalice of the void for combo matchups (swaping with STP probably g2 and g3).Quote:
Originally Posted by T-101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
Isn't what you're suggesting basically just a worse version of Nic Fit..? The difference with Nic Fit being that it either disrupts the opponent while ramping or that it just ramps to 5 mana on turn 2 at the cost of a single card.Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
Point is to have very good land disruption against eldrazi decks, and not loosing efficiency against other decks. Idea of this deck is far away of nic fit, since I'm nic fit player too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Yeah... Good luck with that on the draw. They cast a T2 TKS (probably taking the answer you have to it from from hand) after which you start being cute with Sinkhole..?Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
Or you blow through your entire hand on T1/T2 after which they use the rest of their hand to run you over..?
Is Sinkhole really a playable card, in today's Legacy?
Even pox decks have begun to cut it...
It's not really necessary to empty your hand to ramp like crazy if you see that you won't be able to abuse your mana properly. Smart playing is above all :confused:. TKS in turn 2 blows almost any deck in format ( this deck is no exception to), but again, at least this deck is constructed that turn 2 doesn't happen to them, while you have room to play your things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Of corse not, neither i'm considering it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokugawa
3 Hymn + 4 Goyf + 4 Wasteland is the shit against Eldrazi. With 4 AD and 4 Swords.
1 Vindicate is nice, but so are 1 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 Toxic Deluge.
4 DRS and 4 KotR are also pretty decend.
Filler with 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Liliana. Perhaps 2 Sylvan Library. 1 Loam, 2 GSZ and 1 Scooze, 1 Teeg and 1 Qasali?
38 non land cards here. Only missing P.Truths and Mox here.
Utility lands being 3/4 Wasteland, 1 Canopy, 1 Karakas, Maze? Treetop?
Edit; rough sketch here, had to hurry to het to work.