[Deck] Goblins

well actually i realized the reason but i was trying to say that it is not necessary. you play 7 more cards with RR in manacost but consider that clasic builds run 4 ports wich you don´t so 4 colored mana sources more is enough imo. and wasteland is too good to not to play in max number. so much synergy with lackey, vial and winstigator.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

@GobboLord: I'd easily swap Krenko for Kiki. He is that awesome in Instigators build, and make T3 kill with Instigator T1 having just a Matron in hand, which is unvaluable against combo.
On the SB, you could test Metamorph. It does sound like a good card against several matchups. Of the cards you mentioned though, guess Weirdings could do ruffly the same job. Which leads me to: Does adding the number of removal - Weirdings more precisely - offset the need to run Tuktuk MD?
Also, being more explosive has the same effect?

I'm currently trying a Rb Instigator list too, which has an increased number of T3 Kills (given by a mix of Mox, Piledriver, Winstigator and Frogtosser (which is ok since I cut Krenko too)). It goes like this:
2 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Fetchland
3 Mountain
3 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator
3 Gobin Piledriver
3 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

3 Warrens Weirdings
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Perish

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

2 Pithing Needle (or Mox #4 + Shooter or Perish #3 or Stingscourger)

So Cristhian, since you've been pushing this kind of list (and everybody else, of course): Any input here?

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My first impression is, that Frogtosser Banneret isn't a very good card per se. This is different with Goblin Warchief. Here are the problems that I have with playing Frogtosser > Warchief.
Frogtosser doesn't go well with Chrome Mox. I know, that might sound ridiculous, but I don't want to imprint a Black card when my priority is to get Chieftains, WInstigators and Kiki-Jiki going. And Warchief is definitely one of my favorite cards-to-imprint, so I am mentally "reserving" this slot for a card that goes into Chrome Mox. I can see that your list is "deeper" into black than mine, also you are cutting RR-cards in favor of a more 1B-cards so this might just work. However my first feeling is that this can really mess with your Chrome Moxen. Having reliable access to RR is quite important in this build, which is why we are cutting Wasteland in the first place. And Frogtosser does quite the opposite for the deck.
I don't think that the cost-reduction is even important. I play Warchief for 3 reasons: he naturally survives Nausea-eque cards; he provides haste; he can attack into untapped Squires (in this order). For those reasons I find that T2 Warchief is a stronger line of play than T1 Frogtosser Banneret.

I can't yet say how good Warren Weiriding is, but I certainly like additional Tarfires. Also, Stingscourger has never let me down, and it the first thing to fetch with a MAtron when you are playing against S&T.dec - so tis guy should find a home in your list (probably in favor of Weirding?)

I don't get the Wort, Boggart Auntie in your SB. Could you explain what is behind that?

Apart from these points I think your list is cool the way it is. Additional spotremoval is quite good in WInstitagor lists, but you might find yourself imprinting those more often, since you need your bodies to develop a boardposition (i.e. in situations where you have to decide between imprinting a removal spell or a creature you will probably choose the removal spell, and this should tell you something). Especially in a list with 4 Chieftain a creature is usually more worth than a removalspell.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

There are 3 things that conspire to make we cut the colorless lands:
1 - Instigator builds need RR T1 and T2 way more often than traditional builds do, so in order to increase those odds, colorless lands are cut.
2 - Playing Chrome Mox with few lands. Mox count as a R source usually. Add that to the fact that we still want to play some basic mountains, and we have to cut something somewhere. Colorless lands are the options because, not only we want basics, but we want all B producing lands we can get too, which leads us to:
3 - The deck plays Cabal Therapy and Warrens Weirdings (mine Frogtosser too), which are T1 and T2 plays. You really don't want to open a hand against combo with Therapy and 0 B sources. Since we don't want to cut further on Basics neither on Mox, colorless lands get the cut.
Since we still aknowledge Westlands are awesome, we still try to fit some in our decks.

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4 - Manadenial is not a very solid plan right now. Basically any Green and/or Black deck is playing Deathrite Shaman, and this guy just gives a huge fart on our Wastelands. So We only need those to ocassionally kill manlands and other nasty stuff like Glacial Chasm.

@GoboLord:
- Warchief is a better card than Frogtosser, no argument there. Just want to se if, despite that, he can make the deck fast enough for it to be a non issue during games. Need to play with it in some tournaments to figure it out.
- The 'Mox imprinting B cards' might very well be an issue too. Will take a close look to notice how many times it actualy happens.
- Wort looked like a nice card to get back my Weirdings, specially against TNN decks. Also, ok card overall. Maybe Krenko is just plain better. Other reason is that I have 3 Weirdings MD, and there are matches were they suck (like the mirror, or Merfolk), and I want to replace them with other goblin cards.
- Guess Stingscourger does need to come back to the deck. I'm just hesitant because he hasn't been overperforming against anything other than SnT. Gonna test some more without him.
- Nause effects (Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution) haven't been an issue so far aswell, but I can easily see it coming up.
- Spot on on reason #4 to cut Wastelands. The manadenial strategy is way worse than it used to be, but there still are lots of problematic lands we need to deal with. Guess 3 would be a magic number for me.
Thanks for the input.

I really like the deriction you guys have the goblin deck going. leaving the mana denieal plan seems right . cheiftain and instigater with some chrome mox seems legit . awesome stuff. ill be making a list close to these ideas and posting soon.

// Lands
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain
4 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
4 Warren Instigator
// Spells
3 Chrome Mox
3 Tarfire
4 Æther Vial

looking for any suggestions on what i could change. i have not play tested this list yet.

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Originally Posted by AlbyLegacy

looking for any suggestions on what i could change. i have not play tested this list yet.

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Play 4 Chieftain on the Instigator build. Goig with 3 Warchief is fine.
Other than that MD looks fine.
Edit: Also, add a Kiki there too, to make hands with Mox, Gator and Matron into a T3 kill.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Play 4 Chieftain on the Instigator build. Goig with 3 Warchief is fine.
Other than that MD looks fine.
Edit: Also, add a Kiki there too, to make hands with Mox, Gator and Matron into a T3 kill.

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ok thanks. About Kiki. how does he kill turn 3? i am familure with basic KIki plays, like copy a cheiftain, piledriver, ringleader, matron. any crazy plays i am missing?

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Originally Posted by AlbyLegacy

ok thanks. About Kiki. how does he kill turn 3? i am familure with basic KIki plays, like copy a cheiftain, piledriver, ringleader, matron. any crazy plays i am missing?

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Exercise for you then:
You're playing against combo (non-interactive). Your starting hand is Mox, Caverns, Mountain, Lackey, Instigator, Matron.
Kill your opponent Turn 3.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Exercise for you then:
You're playing against combo (non-interactive). Your starting hand is Mox, Caverns, Mountain, Lackey, Instigator, Matron.
Kill your opponent Turn 3.

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I know how, should I share or let others work it out for themselves?

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Exercise for you then:
You're playing against combo (non-interactive). Your starting hand is Mox, Caverns, Mountain, Lackey, Instigator, Matron.
Kill your opponent Turn 3.

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turn1/ play Cavern, mox (imprint lackey) cast instigator, pass turn.

turn2/ play mountain, cast matron( getting kiki) , attack with instigator, 1st trigger put in kiki, activate kiki copying matron( grab a piledriver) 2nd trigger put in piledriver.

turn3/ kiki for matron( getting piledriver), play pile driver. attack ?

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Originally Posted by AlbyLegacy

turn1/ play Cavern, mox (imprint lackey) cast instigator, pass turn.

turn2/ play mountain, cast matron( getting kiki) , attack with instigator, 1st trigger put in kiki, activate kiki copying matron( grab a piledriver) 2nd trigger put in piledriver.

turn3/ kiki for matron( getting piledriver), play pile driver. attack ?

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Close, but your scenario leaves the opponent at 7. The second Piledriver does nothing.

T1 Cavern, Mox exiling Lackey, play Instigator.

T2 Mountain, play Matron fetching Kiki. Attack with Instigator, play Kiki off the first trigger (opponent at 19). Copy Matron with Kiki, fetch Chieftain. Play Chieftain off the second Instigator trigger (opponent at 18).

T3 Kiki Matron again fetching Piledriver (or another Chieftain). Play it. Attack with Instigator, Matron, Matron, and Piledriver + Chieftain OR Chieftain x2 for 18 damage.

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Originally Posted by Blakroc

Close, but your scenario leaves the opponent at 7. The second Piledriver does nothing.

T1 Cavern, Mox exiling Lackey, play Instigator.

T2 Mountain, play Matron fetching Kiki. Attack with Instigator, play Kiki off the first trigger (opponent at 19). Copy Matron with Kiki, fetch Chieftain. Play Chieftain off the second Instigator trigger (opponent at 18).

T3 Kiki Matron again fetching Piledriver (or another Chieftain). Play it. Attack with Instigator, Matron, Matron, and Piledriver + Chieftain OR Chieftain x2 for 18 damage.

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thanks. i forgot the 2nd piledriver does not have haste.

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Originally Posted by Blakroc

Close, but your scenario leaves the opponent at 7. The second Piledriver does nothing.

T1 Cavern, Mox exiling Lackey, play Instigator.

T2 Mountain, play Matron fetching Kiki. Attack with Instigator, play Kiki off the first trigger (opponent at 19). Copy Matron with Kiki, fetch Chieftain. Play Chieftain off the second Instigator trigger (opponent at 18).

T3 Kiki Matron again fetching Piledriver (or another Chieftain). Play it. Attack with Instigator, Matron, Matron, and Piledriver + Chieftain OR Chieftain x2 for 18 damage.

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T1 Cavern, Mox (Exile Lackey), Instigator

T2 Swing- First Strike putting in Matron, searching for Kiki-Jiki. Second Strike putting in Kiki-Jiki. Main Phase two, Use Kiki-Jiki to copy Matron to search for Piledriver. Cast Piledriver. Opponent has taken 2 and is at 18.

T3 Copy Matron with Kiki-Jiki and search for Chieftain. Lay that original Mountain (or do it the previous turn) and Cast Chieftain. Swing with the team. 2/2 Instigator, 2/2 Matron, 2/2 Matron Clone, 2/2 Chieftain, and a 10/3 Piledriver for 20. Opponent has taken 22 and is at -2.

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

T1 Cavern, Mox (Exile Lackey), Instigator

T2 Swing- First Strike putting in Matron, searching for Kiki-Jiki. Second Strike putting in Kiki-Jiki. Main Phase two, Use Kiki-Jiki to copy Matron to search for Piledriver. Cast Piledriver. Opponent has taken 2 and is at 18.

T3 Copy Matron with Kiki-Jiki and search for Chieftain. Lay that original Mountain (or do it the previous turn) and Cast Chieftain. Swing with the team. 2/2 Instigator, 2/2 Matron, 2/2 Matron Clone, 2/2 Chieftain, and a 10/3 Piledriver for 20. Opponent has taken 22 and is at -2.

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i fuckin love it!!

What does every one think about "Legion Loyalist". he seems really good in these builds of goblins.

I found an even better opening line. I mean, more damage really means nothing if your opponent is at 20, but it is a good exorcise in finding the best Estimated Value out of a line of play.

Opener: Mox, Cavern, Mountain, RED CARD, Instigator, Matron

T1 Cavern, Mox (Exile RED CARD), Cast Instigator

T2 Lay Mountain and cast Matron searching for Matron. Swing- First Strike putting in Matron searching for Kiki-Jiki. Opponent is at 19. Second Strike putting in Kiki-Jiki. End of your opponents turn use Kiki-Jiki to copy Matron, as it will not die until the beginning of the next end step, searching for Chieftain. Opponent is at 18.

T3 Cast Chieftain. Use Kiki-Jiki to copy Chieftain. Swing- 3/3 Instigator (for 6), 3/3 Matron (Cast turn 2), 3/3 Matron (Instigator turn 2), 3/3 Matron (EOT Copy), 3/3 Chieftain , 3/3 Chieftain (Copied this turn). Opponent is takes 21 and is at -3.


I also think it's important to note that the following hand can also get a kill if your opponent uses even 1 fetch, which combo has a tendency to do. Being down a mana source just happens sometimes.


Opener: Mox, Cavern, RED CARD, Instigator, Matron

T1 Cavern, Mox (Exile RED CARD), Cast Instigator

T2 Swing- First Strike putting in Matron searching Kiki-Jiki. Opponent is at 19. Second Strike putting in Kiki-Jiki. Opponent is at 18. Main Phase 2 use Kiki-Jiki to copy Matron searching for Piledriver. Cast Piledriver.

T3 Use Kiki-Jiki to copy Piledriver. Swing- 1/1 Instigator (for 2), 1/1 Matron, 7/2 Piledriver, 7/2 Piledriver (Copy). Opponent is at 1.


As for Legion Loyalist, I found he is more often than not a just a Raging Goblin and the times Battalion "Matters" you are actually already ahead. If it comes to a board stall, removal is probably better suited for unsticking the log jam.

The first answer Olaf gave is my favourite. People often forget that if you use Kiki on the End Step you get to keep the token for the next turn.

@legion loyalist: same experience as Olef.

Enviado de meu GT-S6313T usando Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

(...)

T3 Use Kiki-Jiki to copy Piledriver. Swing- 1/1 Instigator (for 2), 1/1 Matron, 7/2 Piledriver, 7/2 Piledriver (Copy). Opponent is at 1.

(...).

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^{This last scenario may be incorrect since, in the absence of Chieftain, your copied Piledriver won't have haste.} <-- Nevermind. Move along folks, there's nothing to see here. :laugh:

Copies made by kiki always have haste.

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

This last scenario may be incorrect since, in the absence of Chieftain, your copied Piledriver won't have haste.

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Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Legendary Creature — Goblin Shaman 2/2, 2RRR (5)
Haste

{T}: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.


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I finally began putting together Goblins on MTGO so that I can get more test games in with various builds.