Printable View
12-Post/Turbo eldrazi is a terrible matchup. However, there is one card that does actually help ALOT. Blood moon sucks against them, extract doesnt do the job either. The card you need to be playing is Ruination. Also, Ruination + snapcaster is really good. Clique and venser are also good against their decks. The only times I have ever beaten 12post is when I start vensering+karakas their lands on turn 4.
1 Forest is not a reliable way of Krosan Gripping your Blood Moon. Blood Moon is good enough. Just make Land Drops and Entreat for X=3 and they will die.
My main plan is going 5-0. That usually does enough to keep them at bay.
It sounds like you have gotten lucky. Krosan grip is only part of the issue (the UG versions don't even play it usually). It's the 4 Repeals, 1-4 (Yes up to 4) blue blasts, 0-4 swan songs and 0-2 vensers together that invalidate moon. And the fact that if the game keeps going they can just start casting primeval titans, show and tells and ulamogs regardless of moon. Moon barely even slows them down. Ruination isn't perfect either, but it is much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Honestly, unless your sideboard is something like 4 wasteland, 4 delver, 4 giest of saint traft the matchup is always going to be very unfavored. If turbo eldrazi is heavily played in your area, playing a different deck is your best bet.
Lucky? I've never beaten it, and have faced it a good six or seven times at this point. My main point is that Blood Moon is a decent one of in the sideboard, and we should not worry about trying to win an unwinnable MU so much. Just jam your game at them, and if they hit ~6 Lands on time and of a good mixture, you die.
My bad, I misread your post as meaning "My plan (using moon) is working and I am 5-0 against them". Yeah, going 5-0 is the best strategy against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Oh, no, sorry. I meant that the deck's only good MU is us and people who can't play Magic, so they really shouldn't be showing up much at better records. It's an MU we have to dodge. Loam is a more played deck, and their strategy against Storm, another more played deck, is just to hope they don't hit it. There's just no point in wasting time on it. It's the single worst MU still left in Legacy, as far as I am concerned.
Perhaps Bribery might actually be good against 12-post? Not sure if it's too slow or not. Ruination is probably the best card you could SB specifically for 12-post.
what about good old back to basics? you have just to concentrate on countering Repeal at that point..
And Grip. Do they board BEB in against us? I've never had them cast it. If they don't, then it's strictly worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I also hate BTB.
I really don't know.. with all the Dig Through Time and Worldgorger Dragon around I was thinking of going seriously either to Rest in Peace (totally changing the deck) or to Surgical Extraction
what would you do?
Is anyone actually playing Worldgorger dragon (and beating people with it)? Surgical extraction is not a good, especially in miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I would play relic if I needed GY hate, but really I would just play 2 Containment priest, and no GY hate.
List I played today to a top 4 finish at the Eternal Extravaganza trial. Only 5 rounds, but it felt good.
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Flusterstorm
1 Rest in Peace
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
1 Wear//Tear
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
Standard Schonegger list really. Went 4-2-1. Lost to lands, beat Cloudpost (he got a GL and mulliganed), beat UWR delver, drew with UR delver (Had the win just after turns), beat oops all spells.
Top 8: Beat oops all spells. Top 4 lost to UR sneak and show
Hi guys, I want to give my contribution for the analysis of the MUD 12 posts matchup.
I have analyzed this matchup in the last year and write some words in another italian forum.
In this time I copy the analysis in the original language, I hope to give some idea.
As soon as possible i translate the post for this topic, sorry but in this time i can't.
I hope I was helpful.
Regars.
ANALISI MATCHUP VS MUD 12 POSTS
Premesso che gioco contro MUD da quando ho iniziato a giocare Miracle e bene o male l'ho affrontato in tutte le sue forme (da quello con i Goblin Welder e Cavern of Souls a, appunto, il 12 Posts che ritengo quello più devastante contro di noi) e che ho cercato diverse soluzioni in side contro questo archetipo.
MUD 12 posts ha determinate carte che sbilanciano completamente il gioco a suo favore.
La forza nasce dalla quantità spropositata di mana (combinazione di post + Grim monolith + Metalworker), gli permettono di giocare un numero di minacce superiore alle nostre risposte, molte delle quali tra l'altro evadono il nostro controllo di Sensei's Divining Top + Counterbalance visti i casting cost convertiti impossibili da gestire.
Chalice of the Void a 1 è un palo enorme e molto spesso viene sceso di primo turno da lui. Questo colpisce le nostre due carte più forti: Sensei's Divining Top e Brainstorm, il che significa anche che non possiamo rimescolare un miracolo qualora ce lo ritrovassimo in mano al momento sbagliato (capita spesso che lui gioca calice di primo avendone 4 con 8 terre che danno mana doppio e noi peschiamo un miracolo non utile avendone 6 o 7 in alcune versioni).
Trinisphere è un altro palo enorme e può essere sceso anche di primo passando da Grim Monolith. Se entra questa è veramente difficile poiché le nostre Force of Will hanno costi proibitivi. Le nostre spighe costano 3 etc etc...unite questo al fatto che in linea di massima noi giochiamo terre non base e che lui ha 4 Wasteland e avete capito tutto.
Lodestone Golem è fastidioso ma si gestisce. Si possono anche subire molti danni (forza 5 per il bestio) ma le nostre rimozioni vanno bene.
Il nemico ha poi determinate carte come Staff of Nin o Karn Liberated che hanno un impatto devastante sul board per noi....e MUD può giocarli di secondo turno.
Poi ok, è chiaro che lui è farcito di bestioni che se entrano ci aprono, etc etc. Faccio l'esempio di Sundering Titan ma va beh, uno vale l'altro...le carte che veramente distruggono il nostro gioco sono quelle che ho citato sopra. Se arriva a calare un ulteriore mostro la nostra strategia è già andata a farsi benedire già da tempo. Una finisher vale l'altra.
RISPOSTE AL MUD 12 POSTS
Brutta storia secondo me.
Solo una sidata aggressiva è in grado di aiutarci ma in qualsiasi caso la partita si gioca sempre sulle minacce che ho scritto sopra.
Le carte che in assoluto sono più efficaci contro questo archetipo (e che noi possiamo comunque riciclare contro altri matchup) sono: Council's Judgment, Humility, Enginereed Explosives, Wear // Tear, Blood Moon (ma ci si deve stare molto attenti poiché potrebbe andare a ledere il nostro stesso gioco se non si è fetchato prima per terre base).
Come gestire il board?
All'incirca come contro aggro, cercando il momento giusto per tirare Terminus.
Stando molto attenti a Metal Worker se ha molte carte in mano.
Valutando sempre la quantità di mana che è in grado di generare (ricordate che da 2 terre ad esempio, può avere fino a 6 mana).
Considerando sempre che lui può proporre PIU' minacce in un turno solo e che spesso la seconda sarà peggiore della prima. Abbiamo relativamente pochi counter contro di lui, quindi valutate attentamente cosa counterare.
Pregando.
@Tammit67:
..only 57 cards in your MD if I'm not mistaken.
Running eins newest list how should I be approaching the enchantress matchup, I feel as the games go longer I'm less and less favored to win. If they slip one draw engine through the cracks it's almost manageable, but as soon as the second comes down even with counter top there's not much left to do. I'm at a bit of a loss while boarding too, I've been leaving 1 terminus in just in case some of the creatures sneak through. Not sure if this is right though. Opinions would be appreciated!
I'm 2-0 Vs Enchantress, but the pilot was... Less than brilliant. Generally; you need the Balance lock, and all copies of Judgment and Wear/Tear. Terminus is pretty good, as it can deal with the 0/2 version of the combo, whereas nothing else can. Cliques, Snapcasters, and Jace should all be aggressively pushed at their face. And you do need to stop Elephant Grass if you're failing to find enough Lands, as bizzarre as it is, because you will usually be trying to attack with 5 guys to kill them, and you don't want to be stopped in doing so. It's a rogue strategy at this point, and you should just be establishing a general lock, and Jacing them out of the game as fast as you can reasonably get it up.
3-1-1'd a 19 person event yesterday with the following list
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Council's Judgment
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blood Moon
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
I beat 4c Stoneblade (UW, splashing red for Lightning Bolt and standard sideboard stuff; black for 3 Lingering Souls), Merfolk (Monastery Mentor was extremely strong against him), and TES. I drew with UWR Delver. I won a very long G1, mulled to 5 G2 and lost, and then had the lock in place G3, but couldn't find a win condition before time was called. I lost to 12 Post. While we were shuffling, he accidentally showed me a Wurmcoil, so I was hoping it was traditional MUD, but sadly he was playing a dedicated 12 Post list, though no Green or Blue. G1 he hit his land drops, found Eye of Ugin, and asked if I would like some meatballs with my spaghetti. G2 I was able to Blood Moon him, and flashed in a Snapcaster for a clock, but he found enough lands to cast Staff of Nin, which found him an Ugin (lol) to blow up my Blood Moon.
As for someone asking about Surgical earlier, it's not great in general, but locally there's almost always Lands, Dredge, a Storm player, and another random combo deck that Surgical is solid against. Surgical was strong against TES, as it was able to get Brainstorm (and one from his hand), and then was flashed back with Snapcaster to get another card from his hand (can't remember which).
I'm currently pondering Surgical for local play myself, given the presence of Lands (at least 2 players run the deck) along with other GY based strategies. My problem with the matchup seems to be interacting with life from the loam in time to keep it out of their hand, and I'd prefer a way to permanently deal with it and all copies in one shot. The best way to do this seems to be surgical extraction, as Rest In Peace only temporarily delays them (an EE on 2 or Grip sets me back to square one), and Relic suffers against KGrip, and only MAYBE hits one of his Loams. Given it's a 4-of, he has a very high chance of hitting another one. Removing the card from the deck entirely cripples it.
It would be replacing the third flusterstorm, as there is not a huge amount of combo in the meta, and only one RUG delver player that I can think of. Surgical Extraction can come in in a lot of these matchups to help remove win conditions and reactively disrupt the opponent.
Perhaps though, 2 Relic of Progenitus is better than a 1/1 split, as it follows more in line with Ein's deckbuilding strategy of redundancy. This would then fall in line with the discussion I was so graciously called out about.
I count 60.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
The rest in peace was underwhelming to me since I have to tap out to have it in play in a timely manner. With 3 snapcasters, surgical isn't unreasonable but I also like the relic/RiP slot in against BUG strategies to hurt goyf/tasigur/deathrite and surgical just doesn't do that.
Come on, at least give credit where credit is due. We have recently had a 2 page discussion about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium