[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by heathen

Fundamentally, if I'm playing Resto do you think it's better to add small to mid-size value creatures that I can blink with her (something like Eternal Witness), or higher impact big creatures like Grave Titan and Thragtusk? On the one hand, with smaller creatures I could have the mana to cast the creature and then EOT blink with Resto, on the other hand I could be going way over the top with bigger creatures, even if it means I have to wait a full turn to blink them.

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Add smaller value creatures, but make sure that you aren't just adding them because they happen to play well with Resto. If you want anything top-end-y, add either a 2nd Thragtusk or a Primeval Titan. MAYBE you could try an Armada Wurm, but that might be pushing it.

Entomber Exarch is a good one. Don't forget that its "duress" effect can take lands.

Also, if you're looking at a Resto-based variant, there's no reason you shouldn't be playing a Recurring Nightmare. Yeah, you don't have Rector or Diabolic Intent to go grab it, but whenever you do manage to hit it / Top into it, it's going to be absolutely nuts with your style of deck. So many ETB triggers. You could reasonably add an Intent, though, even without Rector. Creature count might be a little low, but Demonic Tutor is so strong.

Oh, and as I look at it some more, I'd cut Wickerbough. You're already running Acidic Slime, which does the same thing (but better) and plays nicer with your deck's theme.

Your manabase looks super wonky, too. 1 of each white dual and 1 plains is not sufficient to support Sigarda + 3 Angels + any other creatures + sideboard options (of which white typically has the most powerful).

I'll offer some more thoughts when I get time to do so.

Thanks for the insight. Putting together the manabase was one of the many times I felt lost in assembling the list. I definitely like the Entomber Exarch suggestion.

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Originally Posted by firebadmattgood

Your earlier post



Your most recent post



This criticism isn't coherent.



Yep, I'm going to stick with operator error here. Delver decks exist to punish people who keep a hand that they hope brainstorm fixes.

Look, your praise for junk colors and GSZ are perfectly valid, and I have no doubt that this configuration improves the midrange/control matchup (a resolved Jace/skull suuuuucks when you're on BUG). I just can't accept the criticism that the delver matchup is something that needs improving.

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I won't comment on these responses as I don't believe them to be constructive. If you do not understand something, point it out and ask a question

@MrShine,

Thank you for this clear and concise recap. You sir, are spot on. With that cleared, I wanted to bring up the question of whether blue really does have the better combo matchup. There is no doubt in my mind that blue is important in a matchup like Sneak Show, but I do believe that the Junk version has as much if not more to offer against storm combo decks and Elves. Personally I don't feel comfortable with any Nic Fit deck against any SnT decks. Stage-Depths combo decks are about as bad as 12-Post if not worst.

@MeisterMitschl,

I am still working around with DRS and Explorer numbers. DRS in Pod, as you have probably noticed, plays out a little differently from other DRS decks. Mainly we want the mana dork for an extended period of time. On one hand feeding 2 DRS at once with mana is not always possible and an opponent's DRS can contest your mana production. Basically throughout most games your turns are usually optimized by a DRS producing mana, not dealing damage. You also don't always want to chip away at your graveyard in general. For this reason I try to avoid having multiple copies on the field at the same time (BoP is generally the better 2nd dork). On the other hand DRS is always your best T1 play and if you are to have 1 dork in play, DRS is the one you want against an unknown opponent.

Explorer is somewhat similar. We are an Explorer/Therapy deck so it is only natural to wish to have the most of both. I still dislike seeing the 2nd and 3rd Explorers but it is usually worth it if it means you get to see the 1st one more often. With that said, I will probably revert to a 3/3/1 split in the near future. It is important to note that these observations are only relevant with a playset of GSZ as any other version would probably want to play 4 DRS and 4 Explorers.

As for Rector, your assessment is correct. I wanted to make space for the full playset of Decays and Rector was on my chopping block. I really liked Rector at first on paper but I quickly started disliking him in practice. Without enough spot removal, opposing DRS can be a real pain as they can represent major disruption for our value engines (Nightmare, Recursion, Persist, DRS food, Rector). Maybe I had some bad runs but I would often have drawn and/or used Deed and Nightmare already when the time came to play Rector and I would therefore have no targets. Also, Poding out Rector is very satisfying and rare/difficult while Poding into Rector is often sub-par compared to our other targets if you want to have an immediate impact. In short, I think the additional copies of Decay bring more to the deck than the Rector package as the deck already has plenty of ways to generate an insurmountable board position and lacks answers to cards like DRS, Delver, Bob, SFM, etc...

I too have little experience with Entomber Exarch as I am currently testing him. I like how his abilities are always relevant and more recursion is always good. Nekrataal is fine but I think Shriekmaw is much better. Personally I would love to see a good GSZ target at 4 mana in that slot.

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I won't comment on these responses as I don't believe them to be constructive. If you do not understand something, point it out and ask a question

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I was extremely specific in every post regarding the delver matchup thus far, so I'm not sure why you think I don't understand something.

You have alternately referred to the BUG lists as a pile of highly interdependent cards and as a shitstorm of different cards with nothing but pod to hold them together (two mutually exclusive descriptions). You have complained about getting punished with wasteland for fetching duals for an early strix that runs right into daze or spot removal. You have complained about getting punished with wasteland for fetching a dual so that you can brainstorm on turn 2. Strangely, you've said that you run into the same issues in both delver and midrange decks. I have provided explicit feedback on every one of the issues you've faced, and other users are similarly baffled by the claim that the delver matchup needs to be improved.

The way to play BUG pod is to take your beats in the early game while locking down your mana, then take control of the board state. If you're fighting over the board with a strix on turn 2, you're doing it wrong. It's really that simple.

It's clear that you are not interested in addressing any of these points, so I'm fine if you want to consider this closed.

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Originally Posted by firebadmattgood

The way to play BUG pod is to take your beats in the early game while locking down your mana, then take control of the board state. If you're fighting over the board with a strix on turn 2, you're doing it wrong. It's really that simple.

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Every control deck facing a Delver deck wants to develop its mana, manage the threats, and deploy its greater threats (AKA: take over). What I am discussing here is that BUG's lines of play are narrower than the others' because its requirements are so high in both mana and colors. What you seem so determined to perceive are scenarios where the problems I raise are not present. You say I play card X, Y, and Z wrong when I mean to describe scenarios where our choices are limited.

When you play a real match against a real opponent, your options significantly decrease and sometimes you will find yourself in dire straights. It is only normal that a Delver deck have the advantage over a Pod deck in the early stages because all of their cards cost less than ours. What is different with BUG Pod when you compare it to other control decks is how expensive all the cards are in terms of mana and colors, and how shaky and scarce the manabase is because it relies so heavily on an Explorer trigger. Brainstorm doesn't nearly help us develop as much as Miracles or Stoneblade for example because blue is our tertiary color while it is their primary. Using BS for mana development then becomes a double-edged sword because of the strain it puts on it in the first place. The same logic applies to Strix when you try to get UB by turn 2-3 against a Delver for "virtual removal" that gets countered by a Bolt or a Decay.

Have a look at the numbers on the previous page, they are quite telling of the color spread and the deck's inability to produce enough mana. Or just go to this link: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/sample...asp?id=1188738 try a few sample hands and notice how many just lose to a single Wasteland or a removal spell on your DRS. I've calculated 4/10 sample hands that simply couldn't cast anything against a single Waste. Only 3/10 hands had a good plan with mana development, some form of disruption, and a bomb within its next 3 turns. So basically 7/10 hands were sandcastles or didn't do much at all.

Also, I disagree that interdependent and different cards are mutually exclusive. Pod glues the creatures together because they wouldn't see play otherwise.

This is mostly for Krimson Viper who wanted some lists. These are my most current.

P-Fire Nic Fit (The version I suppose I'm the most (in)famous/known for)

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Broodmate Dragon makes a return to the list due to the nature of the metagame right now. Less combo/more attrition-y matchups where flying creatures and powerful topdecks are more important.

The next one is more for fun and a little less tried and true. But it's actually competitive believe it or not. It's certainly not as finely tuned as my other lists.

Dungrove Nic Fit

4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Dungrove Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Yavimaya Dryad

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nature's Lore
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize

It's awesome. Trust me. (Or try it yourself)

I've also been rocking a Junk Pod list very similar to Qweerios. I actually like his a bit better though. So play that.

Gosh. Feels good to be active and posting again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heathen

Fundamentally, if I'm playing Resto do you think it's better to add small to mid-size value creatures that I can blink with her (something like Eternal Witness), or higher impact big creatures like Grave Titan and Thragtusk? On the one hand, with smaller creatures I could have the mana to cast the creature and then EOT blink with Resto, on the other hand I could be going way over the top with bigger creatures, even if it means I have to wait a full turn to blink them.

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I would put Resto at the "Top" of your curve; that is, using it to generate value by saving creatures when targeted for removal (classic DnT / Flickerwisp Move)... creatures that have ETB abilities to re-trigger is just gravy on top of that. Most of the time you probably shouldn't fire off a Resto unless you are going to blank a removal spell, kill a blocker, or start up a clock. Don't be fooled into using it just to gain some value off an ETB ability.

In that sense, slimming down the mana costs in the list will help you gain that incidental value off Resto; that ETB trigger IN ADDITION to blanking a removal spell, ideally.

I agree that cutting Wickerbough is a decent idea; you could probably try the Exarch like Arianrhod said, or a Finks... Excellent with Resto (if Melira Pod in Modern is any indication...). I'd also steer away from Grave Titan, despite his awesomeness; Resto is Bolt and Decay proof, and evasive in and of itself; should be enough to lay on the hurt.

Blade Splicer is also a great option in W when paired with Resto.

And as always, if you're playing White, Stoneforge Mystic is a thing...

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@ Honey T - Wow, Dungrove Fit. That's some spicy stuff!!

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Originally Posted by HoneyT

This is mostly for Krimson Viper who wanted some lists. These are my most current.

P-Fire Nic Fit (The version I suppose I'm the most (in)famous/known for)

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga*
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Broodmate Dragon makes a return to the list due to the nature of the metagame right now. Less combo/more attrition-y matchups where flying creatures and powerful topdecks are more important.

The next one is more for fun and a little less tried and true. But it's actually competitive believe it or not. It's certainly not as finely tuned as my other lists.

Dungrove Nic Fit

4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Dungrove Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Yavimaya Dryad

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nature's Lore
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize

It's awesome. Trust me. (Or try it yourself)

I've also been rocking a Junk Pod list very similar to Qweerios. I actually like his a bit better though. So play that.

Gosh. Feels good to be active and posting again.

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Awesome, thank* you!

@Qweerios: Thanks for the clarification. I can only echo that DRS is indeed the best turn 1 play against an unknown opponent. Its versatility e.g. in fighting graveyard dependent strategies, in very aggressive matchups like burn or as a disruptive element against opposing DRS is not to be underestimated, but I fully agree that the “mana-ability” is the most important for us. As you say, Junk Pod runs smoothest when it hits its land drops and when its mana dorks are reliable in producing mana for an extended period of time.

Explorer, however, does not always fulfill this criterion. There are games in which you do not want to fire one off and thus are not accelerated. Now that your list doesn’t feature a 6-drop nor Pernicious Deed any more, I boldly question the remaining relevance of Explorer for this deck at all. Its only justification seems to be the combo with Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy on the other hand, needs fodder in order to fully unfold its potential – but you need your creatures to sacrifice them into Pod.

With this in mind, might a configuration of 4 DRS, 3 BoP, 0 Explorers and Thoughtseize > Therapy better suited for this kind of deck? Or to put it differently: Are we really still an Explorer/Therapy-deck or are these relicts from the past and have we essentially become a Pod-deck?

I would much, much rather run Explorer over Birds. Hell, I'd run Hierarch over Birds. If you wanted to shave back on Explorers in Pod, I'd run 4 DRS / 2 Explorer / 2 Hierarch as my package. You need to have 1-drops that you want to pod away and get value from, and Explorer is still the best in slot for that goal.

The value of Explorer as a G for 1/1 Moat is not to be underestimated, imo. Yes, competent players will often be cautious about attacking into or otherwise removing your Explorer, which inhibits his ramp ability, but you're still pulling ahead if they are preferring to abstain from smacking you for 5-6 every turn.

Thanks, Arianrhod!

I see your point and appreciate the situations in which Explorer essentially functions as a Moat. However, these situations have been rare corner cases in my recent games. Additionally, the best time to pod an Explorer into a 2-drop is the early game. In this state my Explorers usually have already been sacrificed to a Therapy.
In the late game the jump from an Explorer into a 2-drop often does not provide that much value, as all the basics are already in play or are not really needed. So imo it would be basically irrelevant if you pod an Explorer or another dork, but I might be wrong.

Regarding Noble Hierarch: I was thinking of it as well, but its inability to produce black mana is quite a disadvantage, I think. Also, Birds are better in carrying equipments.

I should've clarified what I meant.

Consider:

4 DRS
2 Noble/Birds/whatever
2 Explorer

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Birthing Pod
2 Green Sun's Zenith

XXX other creatures

Yes, the pair of Explorers won't pop that terribly often, but with Pods + Intent + Therapy (+combat in some % of times) to sac (to say nothing of some kind of sacrifice creature), the potential to do so still exists. You also aren't relying on the Explorers for ramp -- they're nice when it happens, and you have the ability to Zenith one up should you need to, but you aren't required to access one ala standard nic fit.

Birds are better at holding equipment, but I'm unconvinced that we would want any equipment other than a Batterskull in this deck. As for the black source concern, most GBW versions in particular are very non-black. There's the spot discard suite, and maybe some spot removal, a couple of Deeds and a couple of black creatures (which can be cheated on with Pod anyway).

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

The value of Explorer as a G for 1/1 Moat is not to be underestimated, imo. Yes, competent players will often be cautious about attacking into or otherwise removing your Explorer, which inhibits his ramp ability, but you're still pulling ahead if they are preferring to abstain from smacking you for 5-6 every turn.

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Have to 100% agree with this. You're slowing down the tempo of the game just by laying down an Explorer often enough...

On BUG Pod's Combo matchup: I don't play the Force/Pilferer, but instead go with Thoughseizes + Arcane Lab + Mindbreak Trap. Even then, I don't have that much issue vs Reanimator, sorta echoing Svknoe's experiences. I've dropped maybe 3-4 out of 30 or 40 matches. VS Storm, it very much is a 40-60 matchup, depending on the deck. TES is a little less favorable than ANT, and that's without playing any forces. I find that Sneak and Show tends to be a little more difficult with my configuration, but a resolved Glen Elendra usually wins on the spot. Arianrhod's comment about how it's _such a beating_ is absolutely true. Glen Elendra is just as good of a reason to run blue as Baleful Strix.

The other part is the ideological redundancy in a pod deck vs actual redundancy, there's a lot of different situational cards that end up having similar results,

On Qweerios' comment on how "if you're moving up the pod chain you've already locked it up, what's the purpose of grave titan". Can't disagree more. It's like saying "I cast Bloodbraid Elf into Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf. I won right?" Yeah, you got great value, but it doesn't ensure victory or a sweeper, or even a better board state on the other side of the board. It just stuck out to me like a sore thumb of poorly thought out logic. A value engine doesn't ensure victory, just like having loam working doesn't ensure victory, or a resolved counter top. It helps, but it's not nearly as locked down as you'd imagine it.

I'm also looking at Qweerios' hypothetical BUG Pod deck and it's vulnerability to wasteland, and the best card vs wasteland is... Deathrite Shaman. I went to a 4/3 DRS/VE split and noticed an actual difference in resilience to Wasteland vs the 4/3 VE/DRS configuration. The other option is to go to 22 lands, which I think is very reasonable. There's a few cards I'd swap, but that configuration for the most part gives me good results vs tempo decks, it's operation moreso than configuration. If theoretically it seems bad vs delver, but many of us have very good results with it in that matchup, ask why? Or how? Not just say that it's a bunch of crap and there's no way it can be good.

Based on BUG pod.

4/3 split. I still prefer 4 explored... The two come into play untapped lands as early as t2 are just so invaluable. And it's a great late game pod sac to strix. I rarely want to sac a DRS... And it gives you nothing if your forced to. Running deeds, therapies, and pod just make 4 VR obvious IMO. (Not arguing the power level of DRS though). I'd go 4/4 before cutting a VE.

Land count. I've been running 22 and would never consider 21. I definitely recommend 22 minimum lands.

On pod chain: so true above. Pod is a tool for chaining... Looking for value or to overwhelm an opponent / board state. It's FAR from "I'm already winning". I have however swapped grave titan for Aetherling and am very happy. My meta is more blue tempo and control, so it works great for me. It's a total beating vs miracles.




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Originally Posted by tadiou

On Qweerios' comment on how "if you're moving up the pod chain you've already locked it up, what's the purpose of grave titan". Can't disagree more. It's like saying "I cast Bloodbraid Elf into Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf. I won right?" Yeah, you got great value, but it doesn't ensure victory or a sweeper, or even a better board state on the other side of the board. It just stuck out to me like a sore thumb of poorly thought out logic. A value engine doesn't ensure victory, just like having loam working doesn't ensure victory, or a resolved counter top. It helps, but it's not nearly as locked down as you'd imagine it.

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Loam gives you a stable mana development early on, Shardless is a fine T2-3 play in the right deck, and BBE attacks the turn it comes into play for 4 mana. Grave Titan is a singleton 6drop in a deck that severely lacks redundancy. You need a Pod and a 5drop in play to tutor him up and that doesn't happen very often because resolving 2 high cost cards in any legacy match should doom your opponent. The only matchups where I would occasionally resolve a 6drop were against Blade and Miracle control decks. It so happens that against those decks a Grave Titan is not very menacing. I personally prefer the Aetherling approach suggested
by Ish.

The idea with grave titan (and most of the bombs in nic fit) is to attempt to overwhelm your opponents' removal and counterspells. However, if you are cutting veteran explorers, I can see how you would not reach 6 mana very often against many decks. I suggest adding another 5-drop.

I don't think that a mainboard aetherling is justified only for the really grindy matchups though.

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Originally Posted by pfiremc13

I don't think that a mainboard aetherling is justified only for the really grindy matchups though.

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Well that's a pretty obvious statement. But if the meta was aggro shifted grave titan would probably be better.

For me... he is an there though to specifically close out games. If games aren't going long then your not even going to see your 6 drop. So I disagree that a 6 drop is used in any other matchup [i]other[i] than grindy ones.

Consider ANT/TES or burn or belcher? Even dredge or affinity or painter. I tend to side out the upper curve for hate. If these were popular decks is main board differently... Maybe even FOW instead of fatties.

In my meta these decks aren't showing up in big numbers right now... That's partly what makes him main-boardable... And why a 6 drop in general is pretty relevant right now.


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Qweerios's problem with grave titan is that it is only relevant against stoneblade and miracles (the "really grindy matchups" I was referring to). He then suggested using aetherling for those two matchups. I disagree with that approach because you are using a maindeck slot for only 2 matchups. I suggested that if you need something else to close out the game and you don't usually get to cast 6 drops, add another 5 drop. You seem to disagree with Qweerios that aetherling is just for those 2 matchups, and that's fine. Run it if you think it will be useful more often. But what I was saying to Qweerios is that you shouldn't run a maindeck card just for 2 matchups.

I agree that you shouldn't main a card that is only good against a couple of decks unless those decks are rampant. However, Aetherling is not only good against two decks, but against every deck Grave Titan is good against as well. I find Aetherling to be much more in line with that reasoning as well since Titan is itself an extremely narrow card that applies to even less matchups than Aetherling. Yes, the Titan has better immediate defensive abilities but the two 6drops are as backbreaking as each other for most fair matchups out there. Aetherling happens to be relevant in a key matchup where Grave Titan isn't, therefore I give Aetherling priority. Overall you are more likely to ride an Aetherling to victory against any Death/Stone Blade/DnT (StP + Equipment), midrange Jund/Loam/Maverick/Junk (PFire, Mom, StP, Liliana), UW Control (Verdict, Terminus, StP) decks than any Titan out there.

It is important to note how the top of your Pod chain does not have to grant immediate value upon arrival/departure. The top of your Pod chain should be everything you need to close out a game you could not finish with your value creatures. Evasion, reach, power, resilience, etc. are all good characteristics to break a board stall or render an opponent hopeless.

That's why I suggest adding another 5-drop: it will be relevant in more matchups and will help with the "overwhelm your opponent with bombs" plan.