Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Related to the new TES Base of Bryant:
I have to say that sure we all really hate C.Mox - but I don't see any reason to run just 1 C.Mox - is it becasue it is a bad card? sure it is a bad card however this provides:
- being faster
- Better post Ad Nauseam
Even I have to say that now the unique difference from this archetype and TNT (Timo Shuneman list) is just 2 Cabal rituals less 4 RoF which are far inferior to C.R. and 1 EtW less - if you compare now the new TES archetype vs TNT it seems that TNT is much more compacted as a deck which has a real goal - I mean - with TNT you can now B.W. -> D.Petition -> PiF from Main much more often than before now you have D.P.
I'm not sure which is the derection TES is taking.
The only question I have is:
Old TES with 3 C.Moxen is faster than the New TES from Bryant?
I really do not see reasons why TES is changing so much - I only now see this deck as a TNT version with a worse Late game... I'm a bit sad about all these changes...
Don't you remember when TES played 4 C.Moxen?
Long time ago when Mystical Tutor was unbanned, the 4th I.F. was in side - and still 3 C.Moxen as minimum were played - why the hell such a change to just play D.P.?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
For a second I really wanted to make a useful post, but then remembered that this would require to go all over the interactions of RoF+Wish, Fetchlands+CabalRitual, CabalRitual+DarkPetition, changing metagames and relative speed of cards outside of a vacuum, so I decided to not explain all that again.
I kept doing this for a year now and decided to stop.
The ChromeMox+DarkPetition topic lately and the endless Odyssee of Rainbow Lands are really discouraging for me.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
For a second I really wanted to make a useful post, but then remembered that this would require to go all over the interactions of RoF+Wish, Fetchlands+CabalRitual, CabalRitual+DarkPetition, changing metagames and relative speed of cards outside of a vacuum, so I decided to not explain all that again.
I kept doing this for a year now and decided to stop.
The ChromeMox+DarkPetition topic lately and the endless Odyssee of Rainbow Lands are really discouraging for me.
Good, good, let the hate flow through you.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
If I remember right, when Mystical was still legal you could Wish for exited cards. Mox was a very different beast then. I don't think it's a just thread to follow, taking about that far back and such a different meta.
Love the website.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Good, good, let the hate flow through you.
This made my -otherwise shitty- day. :laugh:
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
After playing TnT with Dark Petition and Lemnear's TES, I'm starting to agree cutting Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox just makes TES into a worse version of that deck - I've had a lot of really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2 with Ad Nauseam or race with Goblins.
I also don't think Dark Petition is really worth it, it's worse than Infernal Tutor because you can't play around soft counters with it, you can't SB it in vs aggro and you frankly don't want to draw multiple Infernal Tutors compared to multiple Burning Wish in any match. I think the card is probably going to have a bigger impact in TnT for the 2 Burning Wish than it is going to have in TES, where even tho' I found it serviceable it's still awkward to the point where I'd rather just have my 3rd Duress back.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
After playing TnT with Dark Petition and Lemnear's TES, I'm starting to agree cutting Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox just makes TES into a worse version of that deck - I've had a lot of really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2 with Ad Nauseam or race with Goblins.
I also don't think Dark Petition is really worth it, it's worse than Infernal Tutor because you can't play around soft counters with it, you can't SB it in vs aggro and you frankly don't want to draw multiple Infernal Tutors compared to multiple Burning Wish in any match. I think the card is probably going to have a bigger impact in TnT for the 2 Burning Wish than it is going to have in TES, where even tho' I found it serviceable it's still awkward to the point where I'd rather just have my 3rd Duress back.
I have two questions: "Worse version" against D&T in comparison to which version? 2/1 Cabal/Mox or the 3 Mox one? Do you think its any fair to gauge the build simply how it fares against a single deck which has 2% metagame represenation rather than against the 70%+ blue decks it was tuned for and call it "bad" simply because of that?
Let me put it that way: If all you care for are the T1 combos, you should play Belcher, because TES is "a worse version of that deck" and you evade the "really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2"
Edit: Just in case some peeps still not figured out why I'm so pissed, let me state that its simply because no one bothers to evaluate the changes made in context of the actual metagame ( which can be wrong, unnecessary, helpful , etc. which time would tell), but keeps pointing to a fawking single fringe matchup which I'm intentionally gave away a few percentages. No, i have to correct myself, as the question wasn't if and how the build beats D&T, but simply if the deck can combo before your opponent had their turn 2. No one is looking at my significant plus of lands/CoV/Decay and asks how that works against Chalice/Thorn/Daze/Wasteland/etc. even if I covered how that core beat double chalice in a GP. Irrelevant for some people as the deck is simply evaluated based on the ability to combo T1 (as the build with Rain goes off turn 2 regulary) and following that simple, shallow logic means that TES a worse deck than Belcher and Brainstorm is a bad card because it does not help to combo turn 1 either /rant
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I have two questions: "Worse version" against D&T in comparison to which version? 2/1 Cabal/Mox or the 3 Mox one? Do you think its any fair to gauge the build
simply how it fares against a single deck which has 2% metagame represenation rather than against the 70%+ blue decks it was tuned for and call it "bad" simply because of that?
Let me put it that way: If all you care for are the T1 combos, you should play Belcher, because TES is "a worse version of that deck" and you evade the "really painful losses to D&T by not being able to win before or on T2"
Edit: Just in case some peeps still not figured out why I'm so pissed, let me state that its simply because no one bothers to evaluate the changes made in context of the actual metagame ( which can be wrong, unnecessary, helpful , etc. which time would tell), but keeps pointing to a fawking single fringe matchup which I'm intentionally gave away a few percentages. No, i have to correct myself, as the question wasn't if and how the build beats D&T, but simply if the deck can combo before your opponent had their turn 2. No one is looking at my significant plus of lands/CoV/Decay and asks how that works against Chalice/Thorn/Daze/Wasteland/etc. even if I covered how that core beat double chalice in a GP. Irrelevant for some people as the deck is simply evaluated based on the ability to combo T1 (as the build with Rain goes off turn 2 regulary) and following that simple, shallow logic means that TES a worse deck than Belcher and Brainstorm is a bad card because it does not help to combo turn 1 either /rant
You have a really serious problem in thinking everything you do, no matter how speculative, is the next evolution of TES as opposed to having any objectivity for different player experiences with varrying deck lists and then have the fucking audacity to straw man the whole thread with ridiculous comparisons? I'm not even going to bother addressing your insipidly stupid comments regarding TES being a worse Belcher, but your deck is a WORSE TnT and I actually bothered to test both vs prison decks in order to figure out what the difference in the fundamental turn was from TES and it's pretty damn significant.
When I went to cut Xantid Swarm and Chain of Vapour in order to play other cards in the aggro-control match up, all of a sudden D&T was the boogie man that would get me for not SBing bounce. But as soon as I started testing the speed of your deck in order to see how often I had to wait until T3 to go off, all of a sudden it's only 2% of the metagame now like RUG was 2% of the metagame then? Man, those numbers are really convenient any time you need to pull them out of your ass ... Sorry, but I really don't see the point in slowing the deck down only to have worse rituals than Cabal Rituals, and that includes both Rite of Flame and Rain of Filth. If you're going to play a Storm deck mainly metagamed vs Island.dec, then I'm not really sure TES is the best shell to do that as having the speed to race discard on the play, hate bears on the draw etc. while still having a middle game is kind of the entire appeal of the deck. What makes your deck really any better than ANT.TnT if that's all you are trying to achieve? I just found myself being slower overall compared to TES and having to gamble on Ad Nauseams with no Chrome Mox to offset low life totals compared to going for the Past/Tendril kill.
Get over yourself, the deck has obvious problems and the benefits over the alternatives aren't very clear.
Edit: And I don't give a shit about the link you posted either, the point of the matter is regardless of the representation you make an issue out of it at your convenience.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
After reading Bryant and Lemnear (overall Bryant comments - I love you a lot you Lemnear!!) comments I just thought in not posting for a while.... These are absolutly non constructive answers or comments.
You can not imagine Bryant how your ideas seem irrelevant to me - even I recognize you as the creator of the deck , along the time TES evolutioned, and a lot of your ideas have been contradictories and sometimes even they promoted among the comunity the not raising of new ones (I rememer Bahamut EtW or G.P. main idea much before anybody even occurred... You are the best, boy!!! As example)
I will just throw 2 question:
When the meta changed to blue.deck , Did TES change to 1 or 0 C.M? The answer is no.
Will D.P. change TES to just play 1 or 0 C.M.? My hope is it will not.
Final Fortune I love you the most - your english express absolutly my thoughts.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
I have an article that discusses this coming soon
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
Ok, so I'll take the challenge to compare the two decks and list strengths and weaknesses of each deck. In the end I'll make some notes when one would be theoretically better than the other. I know this is a hated and frequently addressed topic and if someone doesn't agree that's fine by me. I left out one big personal 'pro' for TES; more fun and challenging.
TES:
Pro's:
- TES is a turn1 or 2 deck on average. This means that your opponent is usually limited to his first 7-10 cards drawn/seen which is a big difference with ANT. That also gives TES another (better) angle of attack against 2cc permanent-based hate. This is the biggest USP of TES in my oppinion.
- TES' game-winning lines are less conditional than ANT's game-winning lines; an Ad Nauseam line costs 7 mana and an ETW line costs 6. In ANT Ad Nauseam with 0 floating is often really risky and a PiF-line usually needs 7 mana, multiple rituals and often threshold.
- Due to Chrome Mox instead of lands and RoF instead of CR, a bigger ETW in the first or second turn is more likely to happen with TES than with ANT.
- LED has more affinity with TES than with ANT (due to rituals being a necessity for PiF-lines and Ad Nauseam not caring about that before resolving)
- TES can (pretty) reliably win with Ad Nauseam from >12 life.
- TES has maindeck answers to hatebears.
- TES is (usually) immune to graveyard hate (ergo doesn't mind DRS).
- TES has the option to play Silence/Orim's Chant should the metagame demand that.
- In this deck, Burning Wish (usually) does what you want a business spell to do. This makes it better than ANT's Grim Tutor, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, extra Past in Flames. In-hand Burning Wish is also better than in-hand ToA in the early game
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
- Opponents tend to play worse against TES than ANT due to inexperience (this is my personal experience though). For instance, side boarding graveyard hate.
Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has little space in it's sideboard left due to the wishboard
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does
ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's more mulligan-friendly than TES
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against soft counterspells (Daze/ Spell pierce)
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT's main win-condition is life-independent
- ANT has more free space in the sideboard
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
- ANT can cast Abrupt Decay more reliable
- ANT has more game against Chalice@1 on board
Con's:
- ANT is a full turn slower than TES
- ANT's main win-condition is impaired by graveyard hate (the extent is dependant per in-game situation)
- ANT usually plays just one win-card in the deck (1 ToA)
- Ad Nauseam (if played) is way riskier in ANT. Also, ANT's game-winning lines without using the graveyard are more conditional.
- ANT doesn't have a matching equivalent to TES' Burning Wish and has to choose for worse business-spells or playing more supportive spells.
In conclusion:
TES is better against a metagame containing fast decks, for instance; Elves, Death 'n Taxes, Dredge, Reanimator (depending on SB).
ANT is better against a metagame infested by Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland and multiple angles of opposing hate.
It must be said that experience often trumps above con's.
As it's possible I've forgotten a couple of things I'll update this post if someone has something to add. But for now, let the hate arise lol.
~Tom
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I think this list of pros and cons is pretty useful for people who have trouble deciding which list to play.
I've personally tested all versions of Storm and I go back and forth between them, though up to date my favorite list is a hybrid list between ANT and TES, something similar to TNT. I prefer TES over ANT and Grinding Station, but at the same time I feel like having access to the 4 Cabal Ritual+PiF+ToA package main, so that's how I arrived at my list.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
@Tom T I think your post is very well considered and I think it's going to be really valuable to a lot of newcomers to storm - perhaps Bryant should consider even putting a version of it on his site :)
I'm just a lurker so my opinions are probably not particularly valuable, but I respect both Bryant's and Lemnear's experience playing storm so I've personally gained a lot of interesting insight from their argument. I personally am still playing Chrome Mox and no Cabal Ritual in my "TES" list, and I think that part of the problem when considering these different builds is creating this "ANT vs TES" dichotomy - the decks are so similar that I don't think it always creates value to talk about them as completely different things. Isn't it possible we could build a hybrid list with the power of Burning Wish but also the long game potential of multiple "natural" combo routes?
I am going to play Legacy in Berkeley tomorrow and I have both "ANT" (UBr, 2tendrils 2pif 1etw 0an) and "TES" (UBR, 4rof 4bw 0tendrils 1etw 1an) built - as Tom very succinctly described in his post, I'm going to choose my list according to the decks I see around the room.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I will just throw 2 question:
When the meta changed to blue.deck , Did TES change to 1 or 0 C.M? The answer is no.
Will D.P. change TES to just play 1 or 0 C.M.? My hope is it will not.
Given Legacy was EVER 50%+ blue decks, so I have usually a bit of a problem with drawing a line somewhere between that and the 71% we have at the moment (according to MTGtop8) and the 83% we had at some point. The question however is how many of the non-blue decks you will see at the top tables and that was a lot different at a certain point in history like when Survival was on top, when Maverick was a top deck, Alara hit the stores, etc.
Printings like Enter The Infinite, Griselbrand, Omniscience, TNN, SFM, Treasure Cruise, Delver, Dig Through Time, etc. all shaped the metagame over time, but the downfall of pure aggro with Delver/SFM/TNN marks a personal cornerstone and the deck did also change over time. Just look at the landcount, which was increased over years from 11 to 13; the sideboard changed; the MB protection changed; we reduced the Moxen from 4 to 3 to 2 and increased them to 3 again; etc.
I don't see a reason you make such big waves once the Mox-count was reduced again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Has anyone ever had the dilemma of not knowing whether you want to play ANT or TES? Kai's list from the GP with 2 PiF, 1 ad naus, 1 tendrils main looks awesome, but I've always prefered TES. These days in the slower meta, I feel like ANT my be better positiond, but I think it would be hard for me to take anything to an event that isn't my beloved TES.
Is there some recent post somewhere that analyzes in depth the strengths and weaknesses of the decks and compares them? I've been looking for a while and didn't find anything that excited me. I hope this post doesn't get a lot of hate, I'm having a tough time decided which version of storm I should be on right now... Even hearing some new opinions on the comparisons between the two decks would be awesome to read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cdnza
@Tom T I think your post is very well considered and I think it's going to be really valuable to a lot of newcomers to storm - perhaps Bryant should consider even putting a version of it on his site :)
I'm just a lurker so my opinions are probably not particularly valuable, but I respect both Bryant's and Lemnear's experience playing storm so I've personally gained a lot of interesting insight from their argument. I personally am still playing Chrome Mox and no Cabal Ritual in my "TES" list, and I think that part of the problem when considering these different builds is creating this "ANT vs TES" dichotomy - the decks are so similar that I don't think it always creates value to talk about them as completely different things. Isn't it possible we could build a hybrid list with the power of Burning Wish but also the long game potential of multiple "natural" combo routes?
I am going to play Legacy in Berkeley tomorrow and I have both "ANT" (UBr, 2tendrils 2pif 1etw 0an) and "TES" (UBR, 4rof 4bw 0tendrils 1etw 1an) built - as Tom very succinctly described in his post, I'm going to choose my list according to the decks I see around the room.
I think the distinction of storm subypes (ANT, TES, TNT) is hilariously overrated and stupid and there was an outcry that we "turned into ANT" when we decided to move away from City of Brass and Silence, ergo I'm not impressed the slightest to hear the same again in this thread when we reduce the Moxen further for more Rituals. What is new to me, is that the fuss made about 0 Moxen compared to 1 Mox left is so big.
Essentially you tune your storm deck for an expected meta and you have two extreme cornercases to build your deck. One is fragile, explosive and full of variance; the other is slow, but stable. My pendelum swings depending on how the metagame looks like and I opted to build such a hybrid which can combo turn 1/2/3 but is also able to grind out games against. It's that simple. Bryant has a build currently with that goal in mind, like I have mine. Our choices are slightly different, but the idea is the same for this metagame. Don't be distracted by the tone ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom T
Ok, so I'll take the challenge to compare the two decks and list strengths and weaknesses of each deck. In the end I'll make some notes when one would be theoretically better than the other. I know this is a hated and frequently addressed topic and if someone doesn't agree that's fine by me. I left out one big personal 'pro' for TES; more fun and challenging.
TES:
Pro's:
- TES is a turn1 or 2 deck on average. This means that your opponent is usually limited to his first 7-10 cards drawn/seen which is a big difference with ANT. That also gives TES another (better) angle of attack against 2cc permanent-based hate. This is the biggest USP of TES in my oppinion.
- TES' game-winning lines are less conditional than ANT's game-winning lines; an Ad Nauseam line costs 7 mana and an ETW line costs 6. In ANT Ad Nauseam with 0 floating is often really risky and a PiF-line usually needs 7 mana, multiple rituals and often threshold.
- Due to Chrome Mox instead of lands and RoF instead of CR, a bigger ETW in the first or second turn is more likely to happen with TES than with ANT.
- LED has more affinity with TES than with ANT (due to rituals being a necessity for PiF-lines and Ad Nauseam not caring about that before resolving)
- TES can (pretty) reliably win with Ad Nauseam from >12 life.
- TES has maindeck answers to hatebears.
- TES is (usually) immune to graveyard hate (ergo doesn't mind DRS).
- TES has the option to play Silence/Orim's Chant should the metagame demand that.
- In this deck, Burning Wish (usually) does what you want a business spell to do. This makes it better than ANT's Grim Tutor, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, extra Past in Flames. In-hand Burning Wish is also better than in-hand ToA in the early game
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
- Opponents tend to play worse against TES than ANT due to inexperience (this is my personal experience though). For instance, side boarding graveyard hate.
Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has little space in it's sideboard left due to the wishboard
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does
ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's more mulligan-friendly than TES
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against soft counterspells (Daze/ Spell pierce)
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT's main win-condition is life-independent
- ANT has more free space in the sideboard
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
- ANT can cast Abrupt Decay more reliable
- ANT has more game against Chalice@1 on board
Con's:
- ANT is a full turn slower than TES
- ANT's main win-condition is impaired by graveyard hate (the extent is dependant per in-game situation)
- ANT usually plays just one win-card in the deck (1 ToA)
- Ad Nauseam (if played) is way riskier in ANT. Also, ANT's game-winning lines without using the graveyard are more conditional.
- ANT doesn't have a matching equivalent to TES' Burning Wish and has to choose for worse business-spells or playing more supportive spells.
In conclusion:
TES is better against a metagame containing fast decks, for instance; Elves, Death 'n Taxes, Dredge, Reanimator (depending on SB).
ANT is better against a metagame infested by Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland and multiple angles of opposing hate.
It must be said that experience often trumps above con's.
As it's possible I've forgotten a couple of things I'll update this post if someone has something to add. But for now, let the hate arise lol.
~Tom
I like this one, even if it draws a clear line, where I don't necessarily see one between storm subtypes. It however grasps the two cornercases you have to look at and question yourself how to build the deck according to the metagame. Dredge/Elves/D&T don't make even close to 10% of the metagame. I drew a conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
I have an article that discusses this coming soon
Looking forward
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom T
TES:
Pro's:
- TES can play Flooded Strands and Misty Rainforest to telegraph deceiving information.
Con's:
- TES is not mulligan friendly
- and TES can have 'challenging' opening hands; DR+LED+Fetch+BW / Too many cantrips / Chrome Mox as only manasource / T1 'boom or bust' hands. Experience mitigates these first two cons a lot, so don't blame it when you're a newby with the deck. However, it isn't to be overlooked.
- TES is sometimes bound to choose one route; EtW tokens or AN. This can result in awkward moments depending on your opponents deck/hand/boardstate.
- TES is sometimes bound to just go for it without full knowledge of possible disruptive elements.
- TES plays Chrome Mox
- TES should consider soft counterspells more than ANT
- TES has a harder time casting Abrupt Decay than ANT does
ANT:
Pro's:
- ANT's better against Wasteland
- ANT's better against opposing discard
- ANT has more game against Discard+Counterspells, Counterspells+Hatebear or Discard+Hatebear
- ANT is essentially a 2-color deck
- ANT has more flex-slots maindeck
1.) Not true.
2.) ANT has difficult opening hands as well (especially hands that are difficult to cast Past in Flames). TES having too many cantrips? This is definitely an ANT issue.
3.) I believe ANT has the same issues with Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames.
4.) No more than ANT, we play the same amount of peek effects. Except that TES gets Wish for Seize.
5.) Currently only playing one and it's not nearly as bad as people make it seem.
6.) I think they're essentially the same here.
7.) This is absolutely wrong.
8.) TES has a basic too ;-p
9.) TES I believe is better due to a higher threat density.
10.) I disagree on all 3 accounts, especially the hatebear aspect. TES is WAY better than against hatebears.
11.) It's more of a 2.5 color deck (due to PIF) where TES is 3, I think the difference here is actually very small.
12.) Due to not having a very high threat density, unlike TES!
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Took the list to my 2nd ever Legacy event, the first with storm (last one was a year ago, with junk and borrowed duals).
Made top 4, lost to the same guy in swiss and top, he was playing Bug control.
Force of will, daze, spell pierce, cabal therapy and hymn to tourach... In the 5 games, the one where he didn't have Hymn was an easy win. I followed the SB guide, but I do believe carpet would have been very good. Two of the games I lost were due to graffdiggers cage, since I could wish, but never could get enough storm to kill him, since graffdiggers shuts down PiF lines. I have never played with it, but I think Ill Gotten gains would have done some work. It also kinda works like a mind twist in the early game.
Another player who sometimes plays storm, mentioned he always liked a singleton time spiral in the sideboard. I saw one scenario where it would have very likely won the game. I do understand the reasoning for it not to be run.
I think I punted a game when I was going all in t2 (before hymn), since I had seen his hand with therapy, naming force, which he discarded. He top decks ponder and casts it. I didn't know one card. He shuffled with ponder, but the card he drew after shuffling was a force... My bad I guess, I played the percentages and decided to go for it.
Fizzled an ad nauseum from 19 life in one game...
4-1 into top 8, win against elves, then lose to bug control. (In swiss beat Maverick, Punishing Jund, Rug delver, bug delver/team america, lost to Bug control)
A few packs, open the merfolk and new chandra and some duds, enough to pay for the entry and a few sideboard cards I needed to buy.
Not sold on Dark Petition... Every time I play the deck I kinda want an ad nauseum in the side, which would enable easier lines on 7 mana. Yes, if I get to nine mana I can burning wish for Dark petition to find ad nauseum, which would add a storm and not risking the 5 dmg if I hit the Maindeck ad nauseum. I guess it's due to inexperience, but there are just my thoughts.
I do need to play more, felt my games were heavily destroyed by hymn to tourach. I never had a Brainstorm to hide cards, unfortunately. From what I have seen from vids, I do try to end the games way faster than other players. Maybe I just kinda jump the gun and don't stay patient, but I think waiting is just giving opponents time to find answers.
I often made 12-16 goblins and went to town attacking. Bug control stabilized in one game at 2 life with deathrite and 2 goyfs blocking, me with 3 goblins. I have 5 lands and 2 LED in play, infernal tutor for burning wish. He has a single card in hand, dig through times, finds force + blue card. Next turn I would just tendrils with no storm for the kill.
If I was to play again today, I'd cut the Dark Petition for an ad nauseum. It might seem like a clutch having one main, one side, but for me it would enable much easier ad nauseum.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G_g
Not sold on Dark Petition... Every time I play the deck I kinda want an ad nauseum in the side, which would enable easier lines on 7 mana. Yes, if I get to nine mana I can burning wish for Dark petition to find ad nauseum, which would add a storm and not risking the 5 dmg if I hit the Maindeck ad nauseum. I guess it's due to inexperience, but there are just my thoughts.
If I was to play again today, I'd cut the Dark Petition for an ad nauseum. It might seem like a clutch having one main, one side, but for me it would enable much easier ad nauseum.
Congrats on the Top 4!
How does having an extra Ad Nauseam in the sideboard do anything? It's an instant so you can't wish for it and I can't imagine ever wanting to board into a second copy.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
It's an instant, I'm an idiot.
Quick question. You can go for ad nauseum at 18 life, with 1 mana floating, you get to pick the color. You have already made your land drop, used 1 petal, 1 LED, 1 dark ritual and one rite of flame. I went with black, and never found the red to burning wish for tendrils.
I do understand there is a pretty big cost to run tendrils main and I do like going for 12+ goblins, but seems possible. Another thing is a random foil I love the art, which has been so useful in my store Cube: Manaforge cinder. Obviously, it has no room in this deck, but the damn thing can fix mana colors, if that ever becomes an issue.
I'm not a brewer, but red doesn't seem mandatory in storm, now that we have Dark petition. The deck would not be the same, but I can see a deck running 4 infernal tutor and 4 dark petition with tendrils main being possible.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G_g
It's an instant, I'm an idiot.
Quick question. You can go for ad nauseum at 18 life, with 1 mana floating, you get to pick the color. You have already made your land drop, used 1 petal, 1 LED, 1 dark ritual and one rite of flame. I went with black, and never found the red to burning wish for tendrils.
If you can have 1 mana floating I'd pick red most of the time, because; 1. burning wish into tendrils is cheaper than infernal->wish->tendrils (which also needs LED most of the time) so red is more important and 2. red is also more important to cast EtW if your Ad Nauseam gives you crappy flips.
So, most of the time its; R>B>U.
But experience is key and eventually you should know when to pick what color depending on the situation/outs.
