Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
First of all, I don't like "Netdecking" at all, and this could be one reason that made me change my point of view.
Other reason is that I see the 4 Ponder version (Ein's creation) to have some problems with the starting hands (having 21 lands often makes you take a "land mulligan" when your hand is actually good, for example having 1 plain only).
I agree ponder is a powerful card in this deck, and when things have gone right, I have tasted its bright side. The problem is having only 21 lands, there are many times you use ponder just to keep getting your landrops, leaving you with one U land tapped for the opponentīs turn.
I have decided to try the 23 lands build, and with the rebirth of annoying decks with lilianas and HTT, and the existence of MUD, I have decided to leave some room for 2 Spell Pierce. I think this could be powerful with Snapcaster Mage, and with 23 lands you are supposed to drop a land every turn (T3 Snapcaster + Pierce to an enemy Jace/Lili, then T4 Jace should be GG).
Another strange (maybe fail) card I'd like to test is 1 Ghost Quarter. It could be useful against that pesky Boseiju, annoying Burnwillows/Rishadan, stupid Glacial Chasm...also it works as a shuffle effect (mirror match, delver decks or even yourself if you are in trouble).
Im currently running 61 cards (which could be a fail) because I don't find place for Venser, Shaper Savant in the sideboard, I'm running him main. This slot could be deleted or replaced with the 2nd Dig Through Time (even though without ponder it could be more difficult to cast it)
This is the decklist I'm talking about:
// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
4 Polluted Delta
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
// Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Wear/Tear
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
The main issue of choice I have is in the sideboard, what do you guys think?
I'm running 1 Keranos, God of Storms because vs control decks it is another win condition by himself.
Another special pick is 1 Enlightened Tutor that can be sideboarded in nearly every matchup (It allows you to search for Blood Moon, Keranos, Counterbalance, etc)
Any thoughts/advice?
Thank you!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sikariok9
First of all, I don't like "Netdecking" at all, and this could be one reason that made me change my point of view.
Other reason is that I see the 4 Ponder version (Ein's creation) to have some problems with the starting hands (having 21 lands often makes you take a "land mulligan" when your hand is actually good, for example having 1 plain only).
I agree ponder is a powerful card in this deck, and when things have gone right, I have tasted its bright side. The problem is having only 21 lands, there are many times you use ponder just to keep getting your landrops, leaving you with one U land tapped for the opponentīs turn.
I have decided to try the 23 lands build, and with the rebirth of annoying decks with lilianas and HTT, and the existence of MUD, I have decided to leave some room for 2 Spell Pierce. I think this could be powerful with Snapcaster Mage, and with 23 lands you are supposed to drop a land every turn (T3 Snapcaster + Pierce to an enemy Jace/Lili, then T4 Jace should be GG).
Another strange (maybe fail) card I'd like to test is 1 Ghost Quarter. It could be useful against that pesky Boseiju, annoying Burnwillows/Rishadan, stupid Glacial Chasm...also it works as a shuffle effect (mirror match, delver decks or even yourself if you are in trouble).
Im currently running 61 cards (which could be a fail) because I don't find place for Venser, Shaper Savant in the sideboard, I'm running him main. This slot could be deleted or replaced with the 2nd Dig Through Time (even though without ponder it could be more difficult to cast it)
This is the decklist I'm talking about:
I'm running 1 Keranos, God of Storms because vs control decks it is another win condition by himself.
Another special pick is 1 Enlightened Tutor that can be sideboarded in nearly every matchup (It allows you to search for Blood Moon, Keranos, Counterbalance, etc)
Any thoughts/advice?
Thank you!
Here's Ein's comment regarding Spell Pierce post TC banning: "I couldn't pack everything into there, but here are a few points: Spell Pierce is a great card for a proactive deck. And yes, Miracles can be proactive if you have the right draws that revolve around a fast Counterbalance. But most of the time we don't want to punch through our stuff, and we don't really want a conditional card that is compleltly dead at some points in the game or against some opposing decks. Just as I said, when I Top8ed GP Paris I just wasn't as good in building Miracles as now."
I don't understand the reasoning for Keranos. Entreat is another win condition all by itself vs control deck also. As matter of fact, it's more reliable against control deck cause it cannot be Red Blasted on stack, which is Kerano's biggest weakness. However, taking a step back, if you find yourself surrounded by BUG decks in a given tournament, Keranos is not a bad choice.
I don't think you should ever lose to Glacial Chasm. If 12 Post runs that card, you're supposed to lose to 12 Post anyway, it's irrelevant. If it's Lands, you didn't lose to Lands because of Chasm, you lost because you didn't resolve CB early enough. Burnwillows should also be irrelevant. The only time you should ever lose to Burnwillows-Punishing Fire is because Jund attacks your hand and permanents with an explosive start. If Burnwillows is coming from Lands, again you're doing something wrong if you lose to that.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tammit67
I mean, yeah I can adjust the deck against the mirror, but I don't think the meta is skewed heavily enough for me to want to do that. Council's judgement is certainly staying, 4 ponders are certainly staying.
Council's judgement is great in the mirror, I don't understand how you can say otherwise: It reveals to CB to fight cliques and is hard to counterbalance while removing arguably the two most important cards in the matchup (Counterbalance + Jace). Additionally, it helps cliqueless builds fight liliana preboard while being a consistent fuck you to things that sneak under our general radar. Replacing the wear//tear with a second copy though has been on my mind and I might do just that.
Blood moon was there because some of the better players at the tournament were going to be on shardless and lands. As such I wanted a bomb against them out of laziness (though those players didn't even show up, one of them opted to the Grand Prix and top 8'd). I only touched it against BUG delver and never drew it. I regretted it not being the original EE each mirror match.
Neither EE nor Council's Judgment are good in the mirror because neither fit into your plan of winning on the stack. To say otherwise only shows lack of experience from playing the mirror or from winning against inexperienced opponents (heck, if everyone keeps CJ/EE/weartear postboard how would you know?). These cards can be allright but why would you position yourself in a way that you have less chance resolving your own cb/hinder them from playing it (which is almost all that matters) just so that you can have a long-shot way of removing theirs with CJ/EE? I say long-shot because you only play one CJ and your opponent with CB in play is definitly favored in the upcoming counter war over your council's judgment. Sure, it's hard to actually counter CJ with CB but what if you have an actual counterspell in hand and a 1 on top? Also consider the fact you spend three mana in your main phase to handicap yourself even further. I much rather have additional blasts, snapcaster mages, spell snares or Counterspell. To be fair we can't put cards in our list just for the mirror but with what we got I still think Flusterstorm is better than CJ/EE/weartear and I also think that IF we for some reason fall behind in the CB-battle I much rather go for Entreat the Angels than any of those cards. Sometimes you are stuck with EE/CJ/weartear anyway because these are certainly better than the 8 removal spells most people play. I just rather have any other spell in hand than CJ when I have resolved my brainstorm.
CJ goes up in value when facing non-stock lists including ones with Elspeth, Keranos, Batterskull or Future Sight but it's still not good. CJ can also kill Jace, but the same principle from CB applies to Jace and it's a bad plan to begin with. Jace is also both a lot easier to stop (costing 4) and remove (not protecting itself the same way CB does).
With Sunburst Engingeered Explosives is easier to resolve through CB than most hate. It can also sweep a board with angels. It's still not good.
Sorry for the negative attitude but I've been saying this for a year now and people still don't get it:)
Stop worrying about falling behind and cement your role as the control player in the mirror. Wait for them to draw a pointless mulligan and punish them with your supreme plan and cards. The mirror is a long drawn out battle but the game is decided 99% of the times when one player untaps with Counterbalance in play.
Edit: To use your own list as an example. I would sideboard like this for the mirror.
-1 CJ -4 Terminus -4 Swords to plowshars -1 plains
+3 flusterstorm +3 clique +3 blasts +1 Counterspell
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...n-Control.html
Anyone read Karsten Kotter's take on Miracles?
He basically went -2 Snapcaster, -1 Jace, -1 Ponder, +2 Dig through Time, +1 Counterspell +1 Karakas. (and -1 fetch +1 island).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mackan
Neither EE nor Council's Judgment are good in the mirror because neither fit into your plan of winning on the stack. To say otherwise only shows lack of experience from playing the mirror or from winning against inexperienced opponents (heck, if everyone keeps CJ/EE/weartear postboard how would you know?). These cards can be allright but why would you position yourself in a way that you have less chance resolving your own cb/hinder them from playing it (which is almost all that matters) just so that you can have a long-shot way of removing theirs with CJ/EE? I say long-shot because you only play one CJ and your opponent with CB in play is definitly favored in the upcoming counter war over your council's judgment. Sure, it's hard to actually counter CJ with CB but what if you have an actual counterspell in hand and a 1 on top? Also consider the fact you spend three mana in your main phase to handicap yourself even further. I much rather have additional blasts, snapcaster mages, spell snares or Counterspell. To be fair we can't put cards in our list just for the mirror but with what we got I still think Flusterstorm is better than CJ/EE/weartear and I also think that IF we for some reason fall behind in the CB-battle I much rather go for Entreat the Angels than any of those cards. Sometimes you are stuck with EE/CJ/weartear anyway because these are certainly better than the 8 removal spells most people play. I just rather have any other spell in hand than CJ when I have resolved my brainstorm.
CJ goes up in value when facing non-stock lists including ones with Elspeth, Keranos, Batterskull or Future Sight but it's still not good. CJ can also kill Jace, but the same principle from CB applies to Jace and it's a bad plan to begin with. Jace is also both a lot easier to stop (costing 4) and remove (not protecting itself the same way CB does).
With Sunburst Engingeered Explosives is easier to resolve through CB than most hate. It can also sweep a board with angels. It's still not good.
Sorry for the negative attitude but I've been saying this for a year now and people still don't get it:)
Stop worrying about falling behind and cement your role as the control player in the mirror. Wait for them to draw a pointless mulligan and punish them with your supreme plan and cards. The mirror is a long drawn out battle but the game is decided 99% of the times when one player untaps with Counterbalance in play.
Edit: To use your own list as an example. I would sideboard like this for the mirror.
-1 CJ -4 Terminus -4 Swords to plowshars -1 plains
+3 flusterstorm +3 clique +3 blasts +1 Counterspell
I think the point is also that while CJ and EE aren't the best possible cards in the mirror, I personally prefer them to Entreat. I almost never keep ETA post board, and very occasionally as a 1 off
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
He got one thing right, that's the 21 lands + Karakas. He took the Reid Duke build and Ein's build, mixed them and tried to find a middle ground.
If you sb-out CJ and Entreat in the miracles mirror, then proceed to lose the counter war such that your opponent resolves a CB, you might as well concede on the spot.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello,
Quote:
If you sb-out CJ and Entreat in the miracles mirror, then proceed to lose the counter war such that your opponent resolves a CB, you might as well concede on the spot.
You are right in seeing the problem with the resolved CB. But Entreat is not helpfull in preventing this. So what you do is basicly try to ensure to win the Counterwar with your addtional Sideboard cards and therefore board out the Entreat because he is not part of this plan.
The reasoning for this is that Entreat puts you in a poistion you donīt want. Because if you draw it you either can trigger it or not. If you donīt you have a dead card in your hand and need a Brainstorm or Jace to resolve to change this.
If you trigger it 2 things can happen either it resolves or not.
The problem here is that you have to commit atleast 3 mana to make Entreat relevant. This maybe get it out of Cb range but that doesnīt count for your other Counterspells.
So it is highly possible that it wil not resolve in the mirror because your opponent actually boarded in more stack interaction than you did.
And even if it resolves you over commitement in Mana will lead to a pefect EE opportunity to blow all your tokens up.
Yes you could argue that you have Top and can setup the Entreat for an EOT cast but if you actually can keep you top than you are allready on the path to the win so
Entreat is a win more in this matchup but not a real win condition.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teveshszat
Hello,
You are right in seeing the problem with the resolved CB. But Entreat is not helpfull in preventing this. So what you do is basicly try to ensure to win the Counterwar with your addtional Sideboard cards and therefore board out the Entreat because he is not part of this plan.
The reasoning for this is that Entreat puts you in a poistion you donīt want. Because if you draw it you either can trigger it or not. If you donīt you have a dead card in your hand and need a Brainstorm or Jace to resolve to change this.
If you trigger it 2 things can happen either it resolves or not.
The problem here is that you have to commit atleast 3 mana to make Entreat relevant. This maybe get it out of Cb range but that doesnīt count for your other Counterspells.
So it is highly possible that it wil not resolve in the mirror because your opponent actually boarded in more stack interaction than you did.
And even if it resolves you over commitement in Mana will lead to a pefect EE opportunity to blow all your tokens up.
Yes you could argue that you have Top and can setup the Entreat for an EOT cast but if you actually can keep you top than you are allready on the path to the win so
Entreat is a win more in this matchup but not a real win condition.
Sure Entreat could be stuck in your hand, sure Entreat could get countered, sure EE could blow up Angel tokens. These kind of hypothetical what-ifs are pointless. I'm not discussing prevention. That's not what this is about.
Think about that kind of logic, just because your opponent SB-in more counters, does that mean you should not try to resolve a CB? Oh, because my opponent might have an answer at the exact moment/turn when I Entreat, therefore I should not run it. What kind of ridiculous attempt of justification is that?
I am saying, in the scenario where your opponent and you both have SDT in play, then your opponent resolves a CB after you two both fought a counter war. Now, in order to overcome that CB, one way to fight it is to just Entreat. This is to force your opponent to show you that he must have an non-cb, non-red blast answer. Newsflash, if your opponent doesn't have answer right then and there for your win-con, you might just win that game despite your opponent has CB-T in play.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello,
Quote:
I am saying, in the scenario where your opponent and you both have SDT in play, then your opponent resolves a CB after you two both fought a counter war. Now, in order to overcome that CB, one way to fight it is to just Entreat. This is to force your opponent to show you that he must have an non-cb, non-red blast answer. Newsflash, if your opponent doesn't have answer right then and there for your win-con, you might just win that game despite your opponent has CB-T in play.
Thanks for this because you know what concider your own argument.
Quote:
These kind of hypothetical what-ifs are pointless.
Because you actually described a what fi siuations there.
Quote:
Think about that kind of logic, just because your opponent SB-in more counters, does that mean you should not try to resolve a CB? Oh, because my opponent might have an answer at the exact moment/turn when I Entreat, therefore I should not run it. What kind of ridiculous attempt of justification is that?
The same you used when you discribed your what if Siuation just from the opposite of the table. Because you said if he has no answer I win and I said if he has an answer I lose.
So you actually have no argument to leave it in the deck. So thanky for basicly saing nothing relevant fot this discussion.
But my experience in the Mirror today says that I want to leave them in because they just give me 1 more Wincon against the other deck. But this only counts for the 2
Jace 3 Dig list were Entreat is not really a dead card at any point of the Game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teveshszat
Hello,
The same you used when you discribed your what if Siuation just from the opposite of the table. Because you said if he has no answer I win and I said if he has an answer I lose.
But my experience in the Mirror today says that I want to leave them in because they just give me 1 more Wincon against the other deck. But this only counts for the 2
Jace 3 Dig list were Entreat is not really a dead card at any point of the Game.
How does that even make sense? If he has answer, you didn't lose, you are exactly where you were. You just have to overcome CB-T via other ways. Say opponent's CB-T resolved, couple turns later you see the Red Blast you SB-in in your Top 3, instead of the Entreat you SB-out. That's what you wanted and you wish that Red Blast wasn't a dead card.
You don't get to decide what's relevant and what's irrelevant, that's not what miracles discussion is about.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey guys!
I'm relatively new to this Site and to miracles,been playing it for about 2 months now.
I just wanted to ask for your opinions on the new card, released in dragons of tarkir named Myth realized.
http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/mythrealized.html
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snoiz
It dies to Decay and Swords, but you can grow it out of bolt range. It's cheap and something you can dump mana into EoT in the late game. I might test it in the SB.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
That card just seems a milion times worse than Entreat or even Baneslayer Angel. Heck, I would probably play Mastery of the Unseen over this, because Mastery at least grows vertically and somewhat clears top.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
It's better in a UWR Delver style deck. We cast way less Spells than those kinds of decks, and can often go multiple turns and only grow it once.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
If for some reason you want that type of thing, play Luminarch Ascension. You don't need it at all though.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Concur with YamiJoey. We don't cast too many spells at a time to make up for the fact that this does literally nothing when it hits the board. Sure Counterbalance does nothing when it hits the board as well but that card is very integral to our strategy so it gets a pass in that respect. I think it best this might have potential sideboard applications, but only for particular metagame conditions. Either way the card doesn't really strike me as particularly good for this deck at least.
I've been thinking about the shardless MU lately. People tend to say it's a bad MU but I think it's 60-40 at worst pre-board and maybe like 55-45 at worst postboard in their favor. It's certainly not as bad as eldrazi post or Goblins. Often their clock is so slow that if they have an average draw I feel like I can beat them as long as I play tightly. Anyways, one part of it I've been thinking about is sideboarding. Some people have claimed that it's actually better to keep counterbalance in rather than auto-side it out. It seems like that would imply going on a overload-abrupt-decay plan. I've been doing fine with the no-good-abrupt-decay-target plan, but want to test the overload-abrupt-decay plan more. How would you side board to implement the latter plan? I'm currently playing Ein's most recent list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15858&iddeck=118084) -1 Jace, +1 Dig.
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
If for some reason you want that type of thi9ng, play Luminarch Ascension. You don't need it at all though.
Lol I was thinking the same thing. A friend has recommended it to me as a mirror breaker, but I consider myself good enough to not have play such a narrow card, though I might try it at my LGS at some point for the lolz.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think it's funny that people hate Entreat in the mirror, especially when they want to run something like Explosives or Judgment. I can see an argument for extra Flusterstorms over Entreat, since it can be used offensively, but Entreat is the best defensive card in your entire deck. The mirror is won/lost by Counterbalance lock an/or resolved Jace. Entreat ignores both these things. Not to mention keeps you out the draw bracket when playing the slowest matchup in Legacy. I honestly think you guys are just miming Einherjer on this one...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Looking for some help on my 15th sideboard card. Running most Lossett's list:
Code:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Karakas
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Counterbalance
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spell Pierce
4 Terminus
1 Dig Through Time
3 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Council's Judgment
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear/Tear
1 Entreat the Angels
The maindeck Misdirection is because I don't have a fourth FoW yet, so eventually that would be a 4th main FoW and Misdirection goes to sideboard. For now, need some help on that 15th card for board. Local meta is a lot of Miracles, Burn, and Delver. One guy is on ANT, one on Shardless BUG, and one on D&T.
Leaning toward Engineered Explosives.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
EE seems fine. If burn is prevelant in your meta, perhaps chill? Sulfur elemental is reasonable if there is a lot of D&T. Given that your meta is fair decks, you may not need three cliques main. You have some room to experiment.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheShepherd
EE seems fine. If burn is prevelant in your meta, perhaps chill? Sulfur elemental is reasonable if there is a lot of D&T. Given that your meta is fair decks, you may not need three cliques main. You have some room to experiment.
Blue SB cards against Red deck are magnets for Red Blasts.
Kor Firewalker, problem solved. We have historical evidence to back it up when everyone was running UR delver + TC.
