Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Cool, maybe we could just get a solid efficient JUND POD package.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I would look to include some number of these:
Same here, but most of them already make sense. 4 Vet, 2/3 DRS, 3POD, 1GSZ, (1Recurring Nightmare), some spells and a bunch of lands.
The hard part is to figure out a solid POD package.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Thragtusk
Primeval Titan
Sire of Insanity
I don't think i would ever want to go dig for these if i could just go redcap > conscipts > Kiki-jiki > win. If i can't win that route then i would like to see a solution that costs me CMC 3 =<.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
The 2-spot is probably the weakest for Jund -- Junk gets Stoneforge and BUG gets Baleful Strix.
Bobmans -- something like Black Cat is just bad, as is Dragon Egg. Synergy is good, but you don't want to force it. You don't want to NEED a Pod for your deck to function reasonably.
You are absolutely right. Then why not just include Tarmogoyf for CMC 2 slots. Just joking. I don't see any powerhouse in that slot for any of the JUND colors. Or are we missing something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Something that I noticed while assembling the rough list is that a lot of these creatures double as creature control. That suggests that we could run fewer actual removal spells in this deck (perhaps just 4 Bolts, say), and just really double up on the creatures and creature tutors.
i was thinking of 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 3 Punishing Fire. Along with a combination of Decay, Deeds, maybe Thoughtseize. Offc REB's and Slaughtergames in the SB.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Cool, maybe we could just get a solid efficient JUND POD package.
Same here, but most of them already make sense. 4 Vet, 2/3 DRS, 3POD, 1GSZ, (1Recurring Nightmare), some spells and a bunch of lands.
The hard part is to figure out a solid POD package.
I don't think i would ever want to go dig for these if i could just go redcap > conscipts > Kiki-jiki > win. If i can't win that route then i would like to see a solution that costs me CMC 3 =<.
You are absolutely right. Then why not just include Tarmogoyf for CMC 2 slots. Just joking. I don't see any powerhouse in that slot for any of the JUND colors. Or are we missing something.
i was thinking of 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 3 Punishing Fire. Along with a combination of Decay, Deeds, maybe Thoughtseize. Offc REB's and Slaughtergames in the SB.
The ability to run punishing fire engine and a 2 card kill that kills the same turn (since conscripts untaps pod to get kiki...I suppose you need 2 4 drops to sac or a redcap as well) is pretty appealing. But yeah, the lack of good 2 drops is an issue. Maybe Brindle Shoat is good enough? Even if you get a 3/3 every time, it's still not as good as drawing a card or getting a broken equipment though.
After searching gatherer, here's a list of possible 2 drops (I was being pretty generous with some of these)
Wall of blossoms
Scavenging ooze
Bloodghast
Mogg War Marshall
Stingscourger
Sylvan Ranger
Abyssal Gatekeeper
Brindle Shoat
Butcher Ghoul/Safehold Elite/Strangleroot Geist (same idea)
Golgari Thug
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GtF
Strangleroot Geist looks scary, as does Bloodghast.
Scavenging Ooze should be on the list regardless. Both Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots are nice, but those cant beat Strix or DRS (if the list runs 0 GS).
Young Pyromancer was also on my list, along with P.Fire it can produce some amount of tokens. But it has more synergy with a active Purphoros, God of the Forge
I think for CMC4 creatures there are solid choices FTK, Nekrataal, Mogis, Huntmaster, REDCAP, Wickerbough.
We just have to keep looking.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Primeval might not end up being necessary, but don't underestimate the power of Primeval grabbing Wolf Run in a pod a deck. Kiki/Conscripts is pretty fragile as infinite combos go -- it doesn't lose to sorceries and it doesn't lose to Decay, but it still eats it to Bolt and Swords. Also, there will be times where you'll use one or the other card beforehand, etc.
Sire is linked to another Conscripts chain. You can go 4-drop -> Conscripts (untap pod) -> Sire in one turn (by podding away the Conscripts). That seems pretty backbreaking against a lot of decks, and it gives the deck a reasonable shot against combo.dec. Well, reasonable might be pushing it, but if you can somehow survive to Sire through discard/their inconsistencies/something else we put in, Sire WILL seal the game off 98% of the time.
I'm not sold on Grove/PFire in this deck. I think I'd rather have better mana and higher-quality removal.
There should 100% be a Scavenging Ooze at the 2-spot, but we'd need like 4-5 more 2-drops to have a good curve. Part of me thinks that we could just stock up on lifegain ETB creatures (extra copies of Finks, Obstinate Baloth, etc) and run Bob -- with Tops it might be okay. It's probably still too masochistic, though.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Strangleroot Geist looks scary, as does Bloodghast.
Scavenging Ooze should be on the list regardless. Both Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots are nice, but those can beat Strix or DRS (if the list runs 0 GS).
Young Pyromancer was also on my list, along with P.Fire it can produce some amount of tokens. But it has more synergy with a active
Purphoros, God of the Forge
I think for CMC4 creatures there are solid choices FTK, Nekrataal, Mogis, Huntmaster, REDCAP, Wickerbough.
We just have to keep looking.
I wasn't considering Young Pyromancer since there aren't a lot of spells in the deck, but the interaction with punishing fire seems powerful. I would assume the deck would run 4 GSZ, so with that 4 therapy and 4 p fires, maybe a couple abrupt decays, maybe it is enough.
When you say scary I'm not sure if you mean scary as in good or scary as in hard to cast because of the double colored mana costs.
I wonder if a Goblin Bombardment or two wouldn't be bad in this deck, as a lot of the cards seem to push towards token generation. At that point I am not sure if it isn't better to just cut birthing pod and turn this into a zombies type list. I think I have to switch threads here.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Keeping the bord clear (or at least in check) with PFire and dropping a Sire sounds solid. Also being able to recur PFire after Sire hits the board will ensure a win even more.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GtF
I wasn't considering Young Pyromancer since there aren't a lot of spells in the deck, but the interaction with punishing fire seems powerful. I would assume the deck would run 4 GSZ, so with that 4 therapy and 4 p fires, maybe a couple abrupt decays, maybe it is enough.
When you say scary I'm not sure if you mean scary as in good or scary as in hard to cast because of the double colored mana costs.
I wonder if a Goblin Bombardment or two wouldn't be bad in this deck, as a lot of the cards seem to push towards token generation. At that point I am not sure if it isn't better to just cut birthing pod and turn this into a zombies type list. I think I have to switch threads here.
I meant scary in a good way.
I don't think there would be enough room for PFire, 4x GSZ, and POD (and the rest).
While i was looking for the same effects as Goblin Bombardement provides i think Purphoros, God of the Forge is the better option since you can fetch it with POD.
I am currently digging thru the around 700 CMC2 creatures in the Jund colors, but nothing good so far.
Eidolon of the Great Revel is a nice card vs storm
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Augur of Skulls could be a useful utility target as well.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[SLAYER]chaos
I've started playing BUG pod on mtgo. So far I feel the biggest weakness of the deck is in the 2-drop slot. I was thinking of a couple different solutions, more strix, wall of roots, maybe another scavenging ooze or two. I was also thinking about trying out Melira with a carrion feeder. Even without going infinite as the main plan, having Finks and Glen Elendra that persist indefinitely until swords/terminus seems pretty good.
This is also my first iteration of Pod in any format so any suggestions/criticisms on the creature base or the overall list itself is welcome.
list
Towards the Melira combo: i suspect that it is to fragile to setup (like Arianrhod said about the Jund Kiki-jiki/Conscripts combo) and that both Melira and carrion feeder are not helping you towards a win on their own. BUT if you where to try it, then find space for a murderous redcap.
As for your list i would suggest:
+2 Baleful Strix
+1 Fleshbag Marauder
+1 Murderous Redcap
+1 Aetherling
+3 Abrupt Decay/Pernicious Deed
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-3 Green sun's Zenith
-1 Trygon Predator
-1 Glen Elendra Archmage
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Progenitor Mimic
(M15: -1 Wickerbough Elder, +1 Reclemation Sage)
Hope it helps
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
I'd opt for either Progenitor or Primeval. Consecrated Sphinx is also an option. Choosing a 6-drop is probably one of the hardest things about playing Nic Fit. You can't have more than 2, and usually 1 is correct. But, there's a lot of very strong options at 6-spot that compete for attention.
Agreed on needing more Strixes. I wouldn't play BUG with less than 4. Card is just insane.
Melira is adorable, but unnecessary.
-------------
A thought I had:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wood Elves
3 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Ob-Nixilis, the Fallen
4 Crack the Earth
4 Warp World
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Aggressive Mining
4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
Note that this is like, super-mega rough. But I was mulling over how / if it would be possible to use Aggressive Mining the other day, and I decided that it should be possible in a very ramp-heavy version. Turning lategame Veterans, Wood Elves, etc into card advantage seems powerful. Since we're mega-ramping, we can potentially get away with Warp World, which synergizes with everything that the deck is trying to do.
Birds over Deathrites because I want that slot to be guaranteed mana production, whereas DRS is chancy. It might be that those 4 Birds should just be some Titans to add in a bit more top-end, since right now the creature curve stops at SGC and Ob-Nix, which, while reasonable, aren't Primeval / Inferno Titan.
No Therapy because no fetchlands makes the early black source chancy -- this is much more of a Crack the Earth deck.
Orchards synergize with Warp World while being amazing fixing -- WW counts permanents you -own-, not that you -control-. So your WW counts the spirits that you make from Orchard.
There's probably something functional here somewhere, if we wanted to work on it.
EDIT: This all syenrgizes really well with Defense of the Heart, too.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Orchards synergize with Warp World while being amazing fixing -- WW counts permanents you -own-, not that you -control-. So your WW counts the spirits that you make from Orchard.
Can't check from work, but there was a change in rules about this.
I guess currently the owner is one under whose control a permanent enters the battlefield.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eq.firemind
Can't check from work, but there was a change in rules about this.
I guess currently the owner is one under whose control a permanent enters the battlefield.
Well that's lame. =(
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Thanks for the suggestions! Why cut so many GSZ though? As I've been playing with the deck that feels like the most powerful card overall even if pod or recurring nightmare get insane with a few creatures on the field.
Creatures: 24
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Roots
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Consecrated Sphinx
Instants/Sorcs: 6
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
Other: 6
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
Planeswalker: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands: 22
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacomb
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Undergound Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard: 15
2 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yxiled Jailer
1 Wickerbough Eldar
1 Kitchen Finks
This is the list I'm going to probably try when I get home tonight. Is a 6 drop completely necessary? I was very underwhelmed by both mimic and titan. I can definitely see Prime time being insane in the Jund version and pretty good in anything that's not BUG, but not being able to get wolf run really hurts it. Sphinx seems like it would be best at creating an advantage that can't be given up, but just thinking about it seems win more. Is there a more defensive 6 drop that's out there? I browsed through a bunch in blue, black, and green and didn't find anything that really jumped out at me as insane except for the titans, sphinx, and maybe the landfall guy that makes 4/4s.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
[SLAYER]chaos
Thanks for the suggestions! Why cut so many GSZ though? As I've been playing with the deck that feels like the most powerful card overall even if pod or recurring nightmare get insane with a few creatures on the field.
Offcourse GSZ on it's own is awesome, but the point of a POD list is POD. So i would just use GSZ to either (assist) ramping early on or use it as a emergency button. In your list "normal" removal spells such as decay and/or deed where absent. I believe those should be there to control the board making sure you get POD online. For me it's just balancing the unbalanced. To many "engine" spells and to few control.
EDIT: As a 6 drop i really love AEtherling, both for it's ability to hit hard and to dodge removal. But for me the aesthetic value also counts as i used to play Oath of Druids in extended back in 2000? where Morphling was doing basicly the same thing.
EDIT2: I think Thrun is kinda underwhelming in POD lists (where he is ok in Punishing Nic Fit), i would personally choose for Venser.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
For the people looking for a 2 drop in Jund colors that can be fetched by GSZ...I saw no mention of Putrid Leech.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I'd opt for either Progenitor or Primeval. Consecrated Sphinx is also an option. Choosing a 6-drop is probably one of the hardest things about playing Nic Fit. You can't have more than 2, and usually 1 is correct. But, there's a lot of very strong options at 6-spot that compete for attention.
Agreed on needing more Strixes. I wouldn't play BUG with less than 4. Card is just insane.
Melira is adorable, but unnecessary.
-------------
A thought I had:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wood Elves
3 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Ob-Nixilis, the Fallen
4 Crack the Earth
4 Warp World
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Aggressive Mining
4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
Note that this is like, super-mega rough. But I was mulling over how / if it would be possible to use Aggressive Mining the other day, and I decided that it should be possible in a very ramp-heavy version. Turning lategame Veterans, Wood Elves, etc into card advantage seems powerful. Since we're mega-ramping, we can potentially get away with Warp World, which synergizes with everything that the deck is trying to do.
Birds over Deathrites because I want that slot to be guaranteed mana production, whereas DRS is chancy. It might be that those 4 Birds should just be some Titans to add in a bit more top-end, since right now the creature curve stops at SGC and Ob-Nix, which, while reasonable, aren't Primeval / Inferno Titan.
No Therapy because no fetchlands makes the early black source chancy -- this is much more of a Crack the Earth deck.
Orchards synergize with Warp World while being amazing fixing -- WW counts permanents you -own-, not that you -control-. So your WW counts the spirits that you make from Orchard.
There's probably something functional here somewhere, if we wanted to work on it.
EDIT: This all syenrgizes really well with Defense of the Heart, too.
Adding one or two goblin bombardment might be helpful--VetEx and Simulacrum both need to die, and you can also can sac EWit and Wood Elves. Speaking of which, why wood elves over another ramp spell (Farseek, Ranger's Path)? Do you really need crack the earth fodder that much?
Talk about what SGC and warp world do in this deck.
This is a really interesting concept (I especially love ob nixilis).
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bryanzoll
For the people looking for a 2 drop in Jund colors that can be fetched by GSZ...I saw no mention of Putrid Leech.
Basicly Putrid Leech functions as a 4/4 vanilla costing 2 life per turn. I'd rather play Tarmogoyf instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pfiremc13
Adding one or two goblin bombardment might be helpful--VetEx and Simulacrum both need to die, and you can also can sac EWit and Wood Elves. Speaking of which, why wood elves over another ramp spell (Farseek, Ranger's Path)? Do you really need crack the earth fodder that much?
Talk about what SGC and warp world do in this deck.
This is a really interesting concept (I especially love ob nixilis).
How about Purphoros, God of the Forge instead or alongside Goblin Bombardment?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pfiremc13
Adding one or two goblin bombardment might be helpful--VetEx and Simulacrum both need to die, and you can also can sac EWit and Wood Elves. Speaking of which, why wood elves over another ramp spell (Farseek, Ranger's Path)? Do you really need crack the earth fodder that much?
Talk about what SGC and warp world do in this deck.
This is a really interesting concept (I especially love ob nixilis).
Wood Elves nets you a permanent on top of being a permanent, whereas Farseek / Ranger's Path / etc are spells, and thus don't synergize with Warp World.
Basically, here's the thought process.
Starting point: how can Aggressive Mining be actually used? Saccing a land to draw 2 cards is potent and can be abused somehow, I'm sure.
> Loam and Crucible don't work with it, because you can't play lands. Thus, you need to be able to put lands into play directly from your deck.
> This means Explorer needs to be functional lategame, which means that you need a higher-than-avg number of basics. 2 color or very slight splash of 3.
> The next best ramp cards are Sakura-Tribe, Wood Elves, Solemn, Nature's Lore, Three Visits, and possibly Primal Growth.
> If we're looking at running 8-12 cards that dump lands into play, what are we ramping into? Yeah, we'll have plenty of card draw, but what are we doing other than drawing cards?
> The most powerful options in green and end are Warp World, Genesis Wave, and Tooth and Nail, in no particular order.
> Decided to work with Warp World first arbitrarily.
> This necessitates Wood Elves and Solemn Sim over the other options. Sakura-Tribe sacrifices itself to put a land into play, and the other options are spells and thus don't count for Warp World.
> Warp World is primarily broken via recursion -- you Warp, Warp hits an Eternal Witness which returns the Warp, and then you do it again and again until they're dead, basically.
> Ob-Nixilis is the premier wincon for Warp World -- between the lands themselves and the various Wood Elves / Solemn triggers, 1-2 Ob-powered Warps should be enough to kill most opponents. Hitting 2 Ob-Nixilises off of the same Warp should be lethal, since each Ob will trigger before they blow up from legend rule.
> Running so many basics means that we're not going to be able to run fetches, which means that Cabal Therapy should be replaced with Crack the Earth for this deck.
> This deck should be kept basically straight RG, with a splash of black to be able to cast any errant Ob Nixilises / sideboard Slaughter Games.
Then I just kind of derped up the shell around that core idea. Siege-Gang is there because he's the single most reasonable broken Warp World thing -- he counts as 4 permanents, which is huge for a Warp. He's also castable and reasonable on his own two feet, as opposed to something like Avenger of Zendikar, say.
Musing since thinking about it this morning:
-) Lotus Cobra might have a place here, along with a nominal fetchland count (say, 3-4...scapeshift style).
-) Primeval Titan is still ridiculous here, as he's worth 3 permanents.
-) Counterspells are going to be an issue. Going deep on Thragtusks is probably correct, since blue decks basically have to Force that guy whenever possible. Deck overall should probably be build as roughly Wolf Run Ramp from standard a few years ago, with a Warp World endgame combo.
-) There exist decks against which Warp World is going to be highly dangerous -- Sneak and Show comes immediately to mind.
-) Chandra, the Firebrand might have a place here. Forking a Warp World seems stronk.
-) Urabrask?
-) Unsure if the Warp World endgame is actually any better than the Tooth and Nail endgame. Gut is suggesting that T&N is the correct endpoint for this shell, but I'm not sure. The question of what to do when you have Aggressive Mining active and a million ramp mana is actually rather challenging.
