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That's a great point about Cliques, but I also find them to be extremely useful to dump a dead card from my hand and get a card deeper even if i'm not trying to disrupt something the opponent is doing. And 3 damage is a nice clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShepherd
Well that's completely wrong. You don't go up to three Entreat in the mirror or anything, but so many mirror matches are decided by who can find their Entreat first. Siding out my only way to win vs. a Counterbalance doesn't seem like a winning strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
Edit: bold
I think Izzet Staticaster is better than Sulfur Elemental because of utility in a couple other places, like Elves, and largely doing the same thing against DnT. (Okay sure, you lose out against double mother.)
Hello,
I also will keep ETA in my deck post Sideboard. I lost a mirro because I boarded them out and did not had any win Condition left to finish my opponent.
For that reason I will know play the 2 Entreats post Sideboard to evade giving up a game I only have to end.
Why do people suggest any cards other than Circle of Protection: Red for the burn match up. Every other card is so inefficient when compared to it, when Treasure Cruise was legal I ran one in my board and never lost a game when it resolved.
Because you don't play narrow silver-bullet sideboard cards for matchups where you are already favored*. If burn is a real problem for your meta, there are very versatile answers that are good in other places:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zllig
2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull
Spell Pierce
Hydroblast
Path to Exile
All of those have applications against the DTBs.
*In the event that we're not favored or testing reveals it to be so, we still have a strong _plan_ against them, so we still just need cards that augment that plan / ensure we live to put it into place.
Hello,
does anyone have experience with the matchup vs Grixis Landstill? I tested quite a few preboard games against the deck and the matchup seemed attrocious (not 12-post levels of attrocious but bad nonetheless). Postboard it probably gets better but I was wondering if there is a way to be able to fight the preboard games effectively. The only thing that I found that kind of works is entreating with force backup after he slammed a Jace, but that can easily go south if he is prepared. I am playing a pretty classic 4 Ponder build.
I win the majority of my mirror games with clique, jace or keranos. Sure, ETA steals games every now and then, but its often very clunky. They are a bad topdeck, and its always horrible to see in your opening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
For those of you who do keep in entreat, is the reason because its a hail mary type of out? Even when opp lands a countertop and jace, it can still potentially win you the game?
Hello,
I don“t see this. With the current Cab Version of the Deck I rarely have problems with entreat in my hand. I also want an Entreat because the Dig can find me a Brianstorm or jace to set it up and kill you in 1 turn.Quote:
I win the majority of my mirror games with clique, jace or keranos. Sure, ETA steals games every now and then, but its often very clunky. They are a bad topdeck, and its always horrible to see in your opening.
In comparrsion to this you can“t use clique since the opposing Karakas is dealing with her and Keranos is a clock with can be to slow.
So the reason for me to keep it in is the fact that is the fastest clock you cna wish for in the late game and that is were most mirrors end up.
I don't want to see Entreat in my opening hand. I also don't want to see Judgment or Disenchant. Honestly, Flusterstorm is either basically a bad Dispel that has a high fail rate. I don't like cards that are useless on their own and have to be stacked on top of other cards in your hand in specific scenarios. Entreat is slightly worse than these cards early game, but late game it's the best threat in Legacy, while those are either stone-cold dead or terrible answers to Counterbalance/Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
Miracles is more a prison deck than a traditional Control deck, but having access to a nigh uncounterable, instant speed, lategame bomb should be a no-brainer in the mirror. It's definitely not essential, but it's better than filler like Flusterstorm or EE, which just makes the cut since you have 8 removal spells to cut. I didn't run Ętherling in Standard, but that card didn't have flash and evade most all counterspells. It also couldn't just 1-shot your opponent, and they could still win through it. Even Entreat for 1 in the mirror is likely good enough.
I've always liked Entreat as a one-of in the mirror. Cipher has a great point, that a single angel can probably get there. The inherent problem with Keranos in the mirror is the fact that a lot of the mirror revolves around interacting with Jace, either casting it or making sure that it doesn't land. This means that all of the countermagic/removal that can fight the walker will be brought in, and, as Cipher mentioned, the 8 core removal spells (4 swords / 4 terminus) come out. What about 3 of these are replaced with are cheap and efficent anti-blue countermagic in the form of Red Elemental Blast type effects. Keranos is blue, of course, and he gets swallowed by the same effect that can counter a Jace, vindicate a clique, etc, making it a lot harder to actually push one through. On the contrary, an Entreat cannot be blasted, and the counterspells that hit it (save perhaps flusterstorm) can be defended against with opposing blast effects. A single angel represent a faster clock than keranos by 2 turns (given an opponent at 20 life), and your opponent will be hard pressed to remove it, as doing so will require either an EE, a Council's Judgement, a Jace, or an opposing Entreated angel. I will concede to the fact that Keranos is harder to remove once resolved, but I think that Jace is just as good at winning the game once you have your opponent locked out.
The mirror isn't about Entreat the Angels, it's about CounterTop and Jace, but I think the temptation of an "I Win" button is far too great.
i've seen a list like this pop on modo a few times now, splashing green for Loam, Sylvan, and sideboard K Grips. any thoughts? the Grips seem like a real out to a resolved CB in the mirror, and Loam + sideboard Wasteland are attractive for some of our tougher matchups (Lands, 12 Post, Shardless), though I'd want another Wasteland if I was sleeving this up. though i don't think i could stomach giving up red blasts.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/272535#paper
I agree but I also disagree (yay for forums!). The mirror is not about Jace anymore. A couple of years ago we had a legend rule that basicly translated into "if you resolve jace first you win the game". Resolving Jace first atleast gave you a brainstorm and when your opponent tapped out just to remove it you basicly won. Why would you want to bring Council's Judgment again? It's basicly the same thing (for one mana less!) as the old legend rule except for the fact that the card is TERRIBLE if your opponent has not first resolved either CB or Jace. Which is pretty much game over to begin with. Back then we also did not splash red for blasts, which is a huge upgrade in fighting Jace. The answers are super-efficient so trying to brute force a bomb is no longer a good plan. Let me say this once more... If you initiate a counter-war during your turn you will likely lose the game. If you play correctly the games will go long and they will result in counter-wars. Barring some unrealistic opener with top->cb->fow->blindflip we are in for a loooong grind. This is also why flusterstorm is nice. It stops an early Ponder, it wins the counterwar (even if opponent has cb), it pitches to force and it stops entreat the angels. I am still not saying Entreat is good but it's the ONLY card that wins on the spot if you need to go over the top (facing cb+jace for example). Compare it to keranos... it's not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
(I still like Keranos vs Shardless and I pioneered it in my sideboard for that very purpose last year. It's not good in the mirror though, even if it's sometimes better than the other options.
Imagine this board; Opponent cb+top 5 lands and you have Jace +5 lands. Depending on the lists we can pretty much decide who is ahead in this spot. I would prefer cb+top but with Jace you atleast have a shot with Entreat in the deck, just brainstorm and sculpt your hand. What if you have top and your opponent has CB+Jace? You are most likely dead but you atleast have a shot with Entreat. Compare Entreat the Angels to Council's Judgment (or EE/Weartear) in these scenarios. Both are there for scenarios when you are falling behind. Once (and IF) CJ resolves (which I talked about in my previous post) you are often ON PAR and definitly not winning the game. What if your opponent has multiple cb+top? If you identify what the game is about in time you can adjust the game plan around Entreat the Angels instead. It's a much better plan than to fight the CB war once it hits play (which with my approach is less likely to begin with, having more counterspells and an unhealthy love for Spell Snare). Ironicly the Entreat plan becomes worse once people start playing it in postboard games together with flusterstorms... but that's another topic. Anyway, I would prefer not to play cj/weartear/ee, flusterstorm or entreat the angels but since we have so many bad cards to cut I would rank them flusterstrom->entreat->cj/weartear/ee (reactive narrow answers to cards in play, more or less).
There's also another huge factor to why you want Entreat the Angels in the mirror. Time.
I have triplequed with this deck not going to time on modo but that's with a chess-clock and no shuffling. In a real-life tournament with 5 extra turns you can play super-conservative, allways brainstorming with jace and building up for a 100% safe win with entreat at the last possible moment, not having to worry about your opponent's pace at all. I am a strong beliver in using Jace to brainstorm A LOT. Having acces to Entreat and a hand full of force of wills makes the route to victory less bumpy than with Jace fatesealing to 11 and getting REB'ed. It would take less than 2 minutes using a chess clock to finish an opponent with snapcaster beatdown but in real life your opponent would sometimes prefer the draw...
All this hate about CJ comes back to deckbuilding. With 4 STP and 4 Terminus beeing a must vs creature decks I don't think we can afford to Council's Judgment (or other clunkers) in the maindeck. A lot of games in legacy are decided on the stack (combo, control) or by tempo (delver strategies). CJ is terrible in those spots. It's still a great card vs the other spectrum of Legacy (MUD, Shardless, Maverick etc) and it sure is awesome in fighting various sideboard cards (Null rod, choke) which Is why I prefer it as a one-of in the sideboard. Move it there and make room for a Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique or even Spell Snare and you will have a much smoother deck. Having acces to a 1of CJ to be able to remove a Sneak Attack on the back of DTT sounds cool but it's just a false illusion. I like CJ more in the 4-ponder build but I still don't like it enough. Please convince med with a list of cards which I would rather answer with CJ than with a counterspell, a snapcaster mage or a vendilion clique. Liliana of the veil, batterskull and true-name nemesis are all fine, but is it worth it? How often do you get excited for having CJ in your hand?
REB >> anything Green, nuff said.Quote:
Originally Posted by presquepartout
I wouldn't even know where to start..
what's everyone's opinion on running an elsepth knight errant in the side board. she comes in all the same spots as the 3rd entreat or a keranos would come in (grindy MU's like BUG and stoneblade)but she is a trump in the mirror. The mirror relies so much on jace, and elsepth is the jace killer. Not to mention she is another 4 drop to counter jace with a counterbalance and she cannot get red blasted like jace.
<3 Elspeth. I run a humility in my local meta (and online, it turns out) which she works very well with. In the mirror she is very hard to deal with, and has gotten me concessions before (5 minutes ago in fact.)Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeownyu
Actually, many people, mostly Europeans, are dropping the 3rd Entreat in the SB.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/196456 This Luis guy in France, for example.
Also the other famous European Miracles player Angelo is doing the same: https://www.facebook.com/JKEntertain...40377802660761
Angelo's list is particularly interesting. It appears that he swapped the Counterspell in the SB slot with the MD 4th FoW.
I really like the 3 Snaps + 3 Clique setup, however you want to customize it in your 75.
Hey guys new Miracles player here (been on it for a few months), I was wondering how do I deal with UB(r) Tezz? There's a guy that plays it in my local meta and I don't know what I should worry and not worry about.
Thanks for all your constant brainstorming to keep Miracles a DTB!
Tezz is a fast (rampy), permanent based deck, with a "primary" win con that relies on the GY (thopter sword). It's a very tough matchup for Miracles, due to having such an abundance of permanents that we have a very difficult time interacting with, in the form of Planeswalkers (my list ran 9) and lots of non-creature artifacts (thopter/sword, chalice, mana rocks).
A few things that can normally distrupt them are as follows: Pithing Needle naming Thopter Foundry, red blasts to counter Foundries, transmute, and walkers, izzet staticaster, disenchant / wear // tear to deal with chalice and other problematic artifacts. It's probably more realistic to try to fight them on the stack then on the board, when it comes down to it. Generally their countermagic consists of a set of Chalice of the Void and a set of Force of Will. Use your forces very sparingly, and only on things that would otherwise lose you the game. Note that Relic is not going to stop thopter sword, as they can just sac a manarock in response to the activation, and that they'll normally have Helm in the board somewhere to abuse people who bring in rest in peace.
It's a bad matchup, but a very interesting one with a lot of interactive play (save them just T1'ing a chalice on 1, which is a very real possibility).
Check out Ondřej Strįskż streaming Miracles:
http://www.twitch.tv/teamwellplayed
Greetings