lol'd :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
See you tomorrow with a new report hopefully :) regular event tonight, tournament pratice Saturday, and next tournament next Thursday! 0-2 ain't gonna happen this time!
Printable View
lol'd :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
See you tomorrow with a new report hopefully :) regular event tonight, tournament pratice Saturday, and next tournament next Thursday! 0-2 ain't gonna happen this time!
good luckQuote:
Originally Posted by LDX
2-2.
Disappointing night as a TES player, but overall okay(ishh). It's going to be a long story.
The good news first! We were more players tonight, and mostly the newcomers left with a big piece of wins. The leader of our league had a counterperformance and left at 1-3. That means, I'm now ahead of our rankings (as it's % based). The previous leader was mostly there because he won the last tournament, but couldn't keep that well in the weekly. Things can change next Thursday as our second tournament happens, but for now, Storm is at the place it deserves.
So here is my final standing:
2-2
2-0 vs Deadguy Ale
1-2 vs Reanimator
2-0 vs The Gate
0-2 vs Death & Taxes
Round 1 vs Deadguy Ale: 2-0
Game 1
I'm on the draw. I keep a very good hand of Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Ponder, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire.
Before he actually plays, the first question arises. Would playing the Cabal Therapy before the Ponder be safer? By that, I mean fetching a Swamp and playing the Cabal Therapy, making sure it's safe to go for a precious dual land. While I'm pondering that, his opening move consists of a Wasteland. I won't have to deal with my dilema right now. On my turn, I play fetch, pass. He takes out my Dark Ritual with a Thoughtseize next, then I pass, then he goes for Liliana instead of Wasteland. It's enough for an Empty the Warrens @ 16 Goblins.
Sideboard: -2 Duress, -1 Ponder, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Grapeshot. I want to be as fast as possible, and he barely has hatebears, or at least not enough to bring more hate. I also know he doesn't run Chalice, so I don't even think about Abrupt Decay.
Game 2
I keep a Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Chain of Vapor, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Underground Sea, Ponder. He mulligans to 5 again, and it becomes a Turn 2 Ad Nauseam for the win. I however would like one tip: once again, I ''forgot'' to play both LED + Petal by the end of my turn, after a Ponder with which I hid a Tutor. It had no consequence as I still won, but I went off with 0 floating mana instead of 3, as he took a LED with a Hymn to Tourach. Now of course, my girlfriend is rather pretty and can easily be a distraction, but is there any general tip to these simple mistakes? I've been told enough to play these artifacts before they get discarded and I keep losing some game to that. Is it only a matter of experience?
Round 2 vs Reanimator: 1-2
Game 1
It's his first time playing with us. He knows Reanimator is rather good in our meta, and specially good vs TES. I'm afraid as I know the importance of this game. I lose the dice roll again, I think I lose. I keep Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, Bloodstained mire, Underground Sea. On his turn, he drops Lotus Petal, and Ponder with his Underground Sea. He shuffles. He plays a second Petal, and Thoughtseize me.
As a general Reanimator player, what would hurt me the most? What should have been his choice? He took off my Ponder and I felt like this was the best way to hurt me, for sure, but I wonder if someone else have a different idea. He plays a third Petal, and I get to play my first turn. I draw, luckily, a Ponder. I go for Gitaxian Probe (paid with life) that shows me an Entomb and an Iona. I'm so afraid! I go straight Cabal Therapy on Entomb. Bad mistake. Of course, as I cast my Cabal Therapy, he responds with Entomb as it is an instant. Not only did I waste a Cabal Therapy, I also lost a turn as I could have Ponder. I'm pissed. However, while he has a Griselbrand in the grave, he only has an Iona in hand. I manage to draw a LED, then an other off a Ponder, and go for the kill T3. What I'm proud the most is how I played around Daze the whole time: with a single LED, two Petal and two lands, I chose to Brainstorm before going off, just in case to see more mana and dodge Daze. I drew an other LED! I knew I was going this turn and would have paid the mana for Daze, but that would have left me with only 4 mana after the Infernal Tutor, for a bad Empty the Warren instead of Ad Nauseam. Long story short, dodged Daze, was nice.
Sideboard: +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Chain of Vapor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -2 Ponder, -2 Chrome Mox, -1(something). I forgot the list itself, but I remembered how useful the Xantid were in my playtests, and thought it would be fun to bounce a Griselbrand after the draws. Yeah, I learned it doesn't work like that. Now I know boarding Chrome Mox & Ponder out should be rather bad (general rule is, Ponder out vs fast games, Moxen out vs long game, correct?), but I felt like this was a long matchup (it was), and I remembered Ponder was often left out. The logic, aftermath, was bad but there was logic in there at least.
Game 2
I made a crucial mistake there that may not have given me a win, but that at least wouldn't have left me such a bitter taste. I keep Infernal Tutor, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Gitaxian Probe, Cabal Therapy, Bloodstained Mire, Burning Wish I think. He's on the play as I won last game. He fetches, and pass. I draw Duress. Of course I lead with that, and he casts Entomb in response. I see Exhume, Exhume, Brainstorm, Ponder. I don't want to die, so I take out Ponder, and play Lotus Petal into Cabal Therapy to remove the Exhume. Smart move, I thought. He went on his turn 2 with only a Brainstorm in hand and a Griselbrand in graveyard. He draws a fetch, plays Brainstorm.
He plays Reanimate. Fuck.
Gogo Chain of Vapor? I draw a Chrome Mox. I play Gitaxian Probe, see no threats, I draw Rite of Flame. To me, it seems like the only thing to do, if I want to win, is to remove the Griselbrand. It seems like Burning Wish for Void Snare is the best. Of course, he's at like, 10 life, so he can still activate Griselbrand and fuck me up. I'm aware of this, but I'll force him to. I kind of pray, I tell to myself, I'll need backups after I removed his Griselbrand. I chose to keep the Chrome Mox and Infernal Tutor in hand. I was greedy.
What happened? I played Lotus Petal > Rite of Flame > Burning Wish, leaving me an untapped land for Void Snare. I chose not to imprint a Chrome Mox to pay the Daze cost will full conscience. Guess what, it was the bad choice. He didn't even draw a Force of Will, only a Daze. I think I would have won if I played properly because my graveyard was ready for a Past in Flame, or close to at least. I do believe I would have recovered faster. He would have been at 3 life! What an easy Grapeshot kill too!
Game 3
I keep Swamp, Polluted Delta, Lotus Petal, Xantid Swarm, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe. I open with Gitaxian Probe. I see Island, Lotus Petal, Iona, Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Careful Study Entomb. I play Delta and go. I guess I could have played Brainstorm right away and hope to draw a discard to play on the Petal, but I'm not sure if it would have been the right play. Thoughts?
He drops a land, and drop a Petal to Entomb/Reanimate Griselbrand. Turn 1, again. I lose shortly after, as I can't find anything useful on the Brainstorm. Xantid felt so slow in this game, but I guess it was just badluck over the bad card. I don't know, I wouldn't cut them because of this single occurence at least.
Round 3 vs The Gate: 2-0
Game 1
Bruno is my nemesis player, but he doesn't feel good tonight. I of course lose the dice roll and I am on the draw. I keep Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Gitaxian Probe, Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire. He does nothing turn 1 (he mull'), I drop Petal to avoid discard, and play the Ponder I draw. On his turn, he plays Hymn, I have nothing that important to be honest. It seems ok to me. I draw a LED, I pay the Probe cost. I see Faerie Macabre (I won't go Past in Flames I guess), Vampire Nighthawk, Liliana, Gatekeeper. He doesn't have a third land anyway. I build a bit, I try to go for a good Rite of Flame/Ad Nauseam, but I totally forgot he could cripple my Rite of Flame mana. I end up being screwed on this, as it leaves me at 5 mana instead of the 7 expected: I can't Burning Wish + Past in Flames this turn. I go for Grapeshot for 7 and expect to flashback it later. He plays Lilianas, but it's not enough as I draw Cabal Therapies with him having no hands, or extra lands. I manage to Past in Flames and go for Tendrils.
Sideboard: none.
Game 2
I remember some advice. ''You can fight his discard with your own discard!''
Fine, I thought. I kept Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor, Polluted Delta. He drops a land and pass as he mulligans again. I Duress, and he responds with Extirpate on my Polluted Delta, since it was the only target (2 swamp 2 Vampire Nighthawk in hand). Second turn, he drops a land and pass. I Cabal Therapy Nighthawk, I see a new Surgical Extraction. On his third turn, he top decks a Cabal Therapy, names Infernal Tutor, Surgical Extraction on it. I could never find a damn Burning Wish despite about 3x Ponder, 3x Probe, and 2 Brainstorm.
Game 3
Turn 0 win.
Round 4 vs Death & Taxes: 0-2
The nightmare continues.
Game 1
I win my first dice roll. Yay! That's the only thing I win. I mulligan twice as I have no lands. He OBLITERATES ME.
I open with a Duress, I see Phyrexian Revoker, Thalia, Stoneforge Mystic, Swords to Plowshares, that new flying Thalia thing, Flagstone and Cavern of Soul. I just can't go off before he overwhelms me.
Sideboard: +3 Abrupt Decay, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Pyroclasm, -4 Ponder, -2 Duress. I want to go as fast as possible, instead of trying to survive his wave of control and try to play the control game myself. Guess what, it didn't work anyway.
Game 2
Before the game even starts, he drops two new Leyline of Sanctity. Honestly, I'm fine with it. I'll just go Empty the Warrens, it should be enough. I'll just take a turn to cantrip and settled for next turn... On his turn? Chalice @0. He passes. Well, I'll just cantrips this way instead, I'll surely go next turn, right? Chalice @1. Oh my. At least I have a Bayou, I'll wait until Abrupt Decay. I pass. Ethersworn Canonist, Ghost Quarter on my Bayou.
Yes, you may argue I shouldn't have played that Bayou early as it was my only green source available at that time. I'll admit it and learn from it. But by turn 3, TURN 3, he had:
2 Leylines of Sancticty
1 Chalice of the Void @ 0
1 Chalice of the Void @ 1
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghost Quarter on Bayou
That means, I had 0 answers at that point. No Abrupt Decay as I couldn't pay the green because I couldn't have artifacts because I couldn't bounce the Chalice because he had an other Chalice that I couldn't bounce either. I don't know. The main reason I don't play Cabal Ritual is because, while I think it's helpful vs Miracles and other slow decks, I want to go all-in almost all the time in my meta. If I was to play control with them, I would play a control deck. Chrome Mox seems to be a must to win fast anyway. Cabal Ritual would have given me mana for what anyway? Cast an Empty the Warrens after a bunch of countered artifacts? Like he didn't play Stoneforge Mystic by turn 4.
It hurts so bad that I don't even know if the general call, the strategy, the plan to go fast is good anymore. Also, while I felt sweepers were nice before, I don't see them as good because the main hate doesn't come from Thalia anymore, it became the icing. But yet nothing would help me go faster in the sideboard anyway. I only see one solution anymore: Shattering Spree. How I wish I had a few copies before our tournament. I mean, yes, the Abrupt Decays were bad to have since I couldn't cast them, but I see it was more a mistake of mine, maybe, than a bad sideboard call. I now get why they were called so slow and I understand that completely after tonight, but yet, as painful as it is, they were the only answer I had. Shattering Spree would have been 500% better in this case...
Our next evening is Saturday, and while the game counts, it's usually more relax as it's a free night: we don't pay on the prize pool, and absences aren't penalized. I wouldn't mind losing a few games there to test new things for Thursday.
I'll take all the reviews you guys can have.
Thanks a lot!
-Alexandre
Well, Lem, the man is not wrong. You die or you DimRit. If you have it, that is. And then after DimRit you most likely die regardless, but there is a chance you actually win from there. But all the info we have points to DimRit or scoop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If I find space I still run it, because every tournament I end up in sad situations where DimRit is the only way, albeit a bad way. But I like to have options. My Wish board is always bigger than Bryants main list, and after every slightly bigger tournament, I was glad I had those options.
Try not to judge too harshly simply because you have experience and good results. Not everyone has the same preferences, and I am pretty sure you will do well with my lists too.
You have three more possible option here: combo earlier; sculpt a different line of win before you are in such a situation which leaves you no outs; mulligan a sketchy hand which leaves you to the luck of topdecking into business while playing a deck with 40% mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I suspect you can get around a lot of these iffy situations from the start, but we can't prepare for everyone of these, but have to make a cut. We sure can find situations for IGG, Meltdown and others if we force them, but that doesn't make including them a smart use of SB slots
I have unfortunately no idea about the starting grip or earlier turns so I can evaluate better and see if there would have been better options or options at all. It sounds however like he had at least three turns and I wonder what happend in these. The only information I have from these turns is that he casted Probe(s) (potential plural) which is something I would not do early in most cases. From what he has written it looks like if he saved the Probe(s) and Discard he could have killed his opponent with natural storm (which would have renders DimRet pointless once more). Pure guess at this point however. Aggressive cantripping against Daze/Wasteland/Delver is a no-go often unless you otherwise miss your second and third landdrop.
Damn Lemnear, you hit the nail on the head. I don't remember my opener exactly, but I used a few probes pretty aggressively to find a tutor/wish. Now I know, hold the probes against this kind of deck. On an unrelated note, this match was very sad for me as I beat him game 2 with goblins and would have won game 3 after stripping force, but I had to pass as I was one mana short of casting ad naus. Naturally there was a force on top waiting for me when I tried to go off the turn after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Edit: Forgot to say thanks again for your wisdom. I really want to learn this deck like I know DDFT, which I've played for 3ish years. It's incredibly painful for me not knowing what the best lines are every game.
Point of conjecture, but does playing Cabal Ritual/Rain of Filth improve the aggro-control match up so much as just not playing Chrome Mox? What about the 8th Fetchland, 3rd Underground Sea and 3rd Duress? Do we just want to become a more consistent T2 combo deck, where all combinantions of Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish + Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame + Lion's Eye Diamond + Any 2 lands gives us at least T2 Empty the Warrens?
Edit: After testing the shit out of Rain of Filth in storm, it isn't the total number of lands that makes Rain of Filth good, it's the total number of basic lands. The problem with Lemnear's list was that it didn't have access to Empty the Warrens or Swamp, which meant it couldn't rely on using Rain of Filth as a T2 "Black" Rite of Flame into Empy the Warrens vs Wasteland.dec
Theoretical list, taking it to a local tomorrow.
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre (Or Telemin Performance)
2 Chain of Vapour
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Bayou (I will never play a card that has less marginal utility than Swamp MD for game 1)
For those of you not in the facebook group, I played in a small local last night. One game each round was won using Dark Petition to either fuel a Tutor chain or get Ad Nauseam, it was awesome to have 2 Chrome Mox post-Petition/Ad Nauseam as you spend a lot of resources getting to that point. Cabal Ritual as awesome there as well, providing the mana to be able to Petition.
Thanks for sharing my friend. snif.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Is there any possibility to join the Facebook again???
I'm sooo sorry, but you started this shit... I am the way I am...
please please, I hate all these social media... and that was the unique group I joined...
EDIT:
Final Fortune:
For me RoFilth is crap in TES because:
a) with 0 lands it produces -1 mana
b) with 1 lands it only produces +0 mana
c) with 2 lands it only produces +1 mana
d) this card needs to have at least a basic in play in order to be okish vs Wasteland - the only thing I suggested.
If you conceive TES as a fast Deck - this card has not synergy with a) to d)
EDIT 2: Related to the latest post about D.Returns I will point the following I stated:
IF you reach THAT scenario D.Returns is the way to go. Simple.
you Lemnear says something like:
2+2+2 = 6
I only said:
2 + 2 = 4
Both is true.
I didn't like Rain of Filth either when I first started testing it because I wanted T1 wins too, then I realized the problem with Cabal Ritual in TnT was that it's 2cc prevented the deck from casting Burning Wish on T2 where Rain of Filth's 1cc didn't. So as long as the deck had a Swamp or a Fetchland to sit on vs Wasteland, it met the minimum requirement for enabling a T2 Empty the Warrens while scaling with land drops over the mid-game. It was the best, worst 1xRitual at achieving the stated goal and allowed me to cut the last Chrome Mox from the list. I would also much rather have Island in the deck in order to have a reliable B->BBB Ritual on T3 like ANT does, but the problem with Island is that it does not allow a T2 Empty the Warrens off of any combination of tutors, rituals and lands so it's a non starter :/ Both of your conditions C) and D) are completely acceptable, but it's 1 card in a 75 card deck so cut it for another Underground Sea or Duress if you don't like it.
I tried to combine a lot of different people's observations in that list, like the 4th MD Infernal Tutor and 1 SB Dark Petition, 3rd Duress, 8th Fetchland, cutting Chrome Mox altogether, keeping a MD Empty the Warrens, adding a Rain of Filth, SBing the Bayou and increasing the land count in order to become a more aggressive TnT. I don't care about losing the T1 win%, because those wins aren't protected by discard. I care about keeping the T2 win % the same, but gaining a more consistent manabase that doesn't Imprint cards for mono color land drops. More Fetchlands and Underground Seas just happen to be really fucking good at doing that, so I think I realize what Lemnear was trying to say while finding a better way to articulate it with my card choices.
I can confidently say what the difference between TnT and this version of TES actually is; all of the Fetchlands, the basic lands and the Rituals of the manabase are designed to disrupt on T1 and combo on T2 as aggressively as possible where the Island and Cabal Rituals of TnT mean it's fundamentally a T3 deck and thus too slow vs hate bears, spheres or Hymn to Tourach strategies. Basically, it's Lemnear's list without the bad card choices, like 2xBayou, 2nd Rain of Filth and no MD Empty the Warrens so you have lands that aren't just awful game 1, no unnecessarily redundant copies of Rain of Filth and a 4cc target for Infernal Tutor and it's a massive improvement on both consistency and speed. The caveat is that it all comes down to how the deck combos, if we're leaning so hard on Empty the Warrens T2 does that allow our opponent's to take advantage of us with sweepers, and if we aren't how reliable is Ad Nauseam with just 4 Lotus Petal for the T1, T2 and T3 wins?
You're welcome, buddy. Against Wasteland and/or Daze, I tend to slowroll as their disruption easily gets totally worthless if you just drop fetchlands and pass for turns and Force them to act instead of just sitting back on their cheap disruption and hope you walk right into it. You can say it's a lot like people should play Grinding Station (shoutout to Jona) and simply watch your opponents disruption getting worthless automatically over time. I ran 14 lands in Lille to slowroll the game on purpose against all Delver/Daze/Wastelands decks and lost not a single match because they can't deal with you anymore once you have 3+ lands in play. Almost any time I was aware of facing a tempo deck, I immediately switched the gameplan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_D
I feel this is in direct relation to the previous quoted post. I would not say Rains strengh scales in relation to Basics but in relation to land you can drop without getting one needlessly destroyed (Fetchlands). As stated before, I play a lot of "fechland, go" against the decks which pressure your manabase and basically skip on AN completely. I also save my cantrips as I don't want to expose myself to Wasteland if I open with fetch->Volcanic->Ponder or the like. I prefer EoT Brainstorms followed by fetch to avoid presenting lands as easy choice targets, untap and combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Exactly. The total requirement of two IMS' makes quite a difference to running with Cabal Ritual or the TNT layout in general. Therefore, I was so confused seeing the build linked to "turn 4 combo" or ANT/TNT speed in generalQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Yes. I increased the fechlands to 8 on purpose to enables sitting on these Fetchlands until I really want to crack them, disabling my opponents to dictate the games pace with their manadenial, but remain in the driver seat. I shifted the focus away from the T1 combo with intent as I felt the price we pay with Moxen is too High every time we cannot combo turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Between not waning to run SB lands and neither limiting my options via Basics (especially the Island), I felt forced to make the tradeoff of potentially open a hand with Bayou preboard. I didn't saw another option tbh, so I had to Bank on the 8 Fetchlands and/or opponents lacking timed Wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
EtW underperformed for me and I wanted to be able to be more aggressive with AN flips (just because I cut the Moxen and may need those additional cards to find mana) so I cut the MB copy, but I sure understand if you want to keep it. 7 Discard maybe is a bit excessive unless you play a lot against OmniTell or hard control (drew a bit too much if these in Lille imo). Increasing the landcount improves your ability to "land, go" against Daze and/or Wasteland as well as improving your Rains to overpower softcounters while also improving Mulligans. For me that step was desirable and payed off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Well, if you drop your second land turn two, you even increase your turn 2 percentage Overall, not only because of Rain but because your second IMS doesn't cost two cards. From there cards like Rain are scaling while Moxen become lackluster aside flipping them to AN. I did admit from the start that running w/o Moxen decrease your T1 combo outs, but those are not only unprotected against a field of 75% FoW decks in the first place but REQUIRED against an even smaller potion of possible decks (D&T on the draw, MUD, etc.), which was my outlined point to simply say "fuck these 6% of matchups" and accept the disadvantage over the traditional build to gain advantages against like anything else you seem to have experienced as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I'm totally fine questioning the cardchoices in particular. I outlined why I ran two Rains (as I wanted to see like 1 each game pre- or post-AN) and two Bayous (keep Decays boardable against Wasteland + Chalice). For me it was simply important that the concept of an improved turn 2+ and being able to grind out Daze/Wasteland is understood and evaluated by the community. With that being said, I'm a bit irritated that Bryant cut a land (now 12) while I added one (now 14). I need to find the reason for these totally different conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
The big question mark floating above EtW (especially postboard) is a significant point for discussion imo and implies to ask ourselves how many tradeoffs we accept just for running the quick (MB) EtW (which I feel is directly linked to the Chrome Moxen to Balance out the 4cc to flip to AN). I, for myself, concluded that the price I pay for the potential 5 additional outs to combo (natural EtW in hand and 6-mana playlines with Infernal) are not worth being forced to run with Moxen and stopping at 4 life with AN. I'm fine if other peoples conclusion differs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
You are both grown up men. Settle this civilised between you two. I don't know why I suddenly have PMs as I don't have anything to do with that stuff at all. (P.S.: I have not read your message so far, just noticed you writing me. I'm working through the weekend as usual, so I don't have time to deal with PMs/Article Reviews/etc. which are all in my message/eMail/Facebook folder. Sorry for everyone who tried to contact me. I'll do this stuff Monday)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
If you keep hands with 0 lands you need to have a damn good reason in this metagame. It cycles for storm with 1 land in play for EtW which is about as much as playing a Mox w/o imprint. With two or more lands it's already miles better than Mox and that's the point I'm making especially as I run more lands in the first place making case a) less likely in generalQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
You don't need a basic, a Fetchland is enough. I simply don't understand the idea of needlessly exposing lands to Wasteland. You DO NOT HAVE to cast T1 Ponder/Discard vs. Wasteland.dec. Case d) is an idiotic metric to gauge Rain or Cabal Ritual
You don't see a difference between Mox vs. Rain/Cabal in terms of mana/cardinvestment especially of your opponent holds defense? You ignore the whole purpose of these changes by pointing to the turn 1 combo. I dunno how many times I stated it till now: Cabal Ritual and Rain both bank on two plus IMS' (preferable: lands) to improve your turn 2/3/etc. odds against decks with defense. Making points based on hands/configurations which feature 1 IMS at max is pointless. At this point we can point at IT + Rite + 1 IMS or Wish + Ritual + IMS and throw the whole deck over board simply because your rule out having black+red mana in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
If you reach that scenario you likely made at least one mistake on the way leading there. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I think the basic and the 3rd Duress are important because it lets you play Fetchland->Swamp->Duress vs unknown opponents with no risk to Wasteland, and I like the option of being able to cast discard, or in the case of Island cantrips, instead of sitting on the Fetchland because you better utilize your mana. There's an opportunity cost to not sacrifing a Fetchland where the opportunity cost to playing a basic is less clear, in ANT the opportunity cost is practically nill because it's only a 2 color deck and there's a high necessity of casting 5+ Sorcery cantrips asap.
I just don't see a reason to play Bayou MD, 2xBayou aside, there are no other wish targets I want to play beyond Massacre and 3 Abrupt Decay and 2 Xantid Swarm are sufficient. I think 2xBayou, or Bayou and Swamp, is a strain on mulligans, and I would sooner cut the Swamp for the 4th Underground Sea at this point.
I think the problem with cutting Empty the Warrens from the MD is that it makes the deck a T3 combo deck more often than not. Considering Empty the Warrens is at it's strongest game 1, it makes more sense to be the Empty Warrens deck with Ad Nauseam back up rather than just an Ad Nauseam deck. Those T2 Empty the Warrens plays are very relevant vs D&T/MUD, and if that's our primary kill condition then the Chrome Mox issue is irrelevant until we're facing a deck against whom Empty the Warrens is risky - and by all accounts those decks don't pressure your life total quickly. I feel very strongly the deck is "3 color Goblin aggro" game 1, but you can SB it out for a better Ad Nauseam deck game 2.
Also, it's not as if the deck is dead in the water once it reaches the point where Ad Nauseam is no longer an option, we still have the Past in Flames chain and storming by hand available.
Edit: I've been content with a single copy of Rain over the 15th land, and I don't see a need to play the 10th ritual so far.
On a side note, the more I play on Cockatrice, the more I think Shattering Spree would actually be very decent in the current Legacy metagame.
All I see is Miracle hate.
Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void, Phyrexian Revoker, Null Rod. Countless others. By the time we find our regular answers or can win, we're locked down with Wasteland and Rishadan Ports.
For the short experience I have, I feel like I wanted Shattering Spree so many times as a ''regular part'' of the 75, instead of just it being an exception for my local meta. Because they want to get rid of Miracle as soon as game 1, the maindeck hate that affects us is very real, and if we don't win faster than they put down Chalice @ 1, we're in a rather bad spot. Burning Wish > Shattering Spree would save us from that.
I'm no math expert, but we have a 50% chance to win dice roll. With 4 Chalice of the Void main deck, or even 3, the chance of them landing a Chalice @ 1 by their turn 2 is higher than our probability to win (or at least combo) by our turn 1. Yes, we would have higher chance on the play, but again it's 50/50, and I didn't even talk about Chalice @ 0. I'm quite sure the probability of them landing a Chalice @ 0 on their turn, on draw, is higher than our chance at winning T2 without artifacts support. But then again, they must play that Chalice @ 0, in other words, know what we're going to play, which shouldn't happen. I'm just very curious to see you guys with some Shattering Spree backups, and have your opinions on them.
Sure, Shattering Spree doesn't do much vs Miracle, but I'm quite positive the decks built specially to get rid of Miracles, all added together, will make a higher % than Miracle itself.
Thoughts?
I hate this classic T1 Duress/Probe just to see what I'm up against if I can't follow up with the combo. It's such a revealing play and signals your opponent to cantrip in her/his turn 1 into countermagic/discard rather than into threats. Really not my kind of strategic play at all. Mana shortage or knowing to face a combo deck are the only reasons to cast discard BEFORE your combo turnQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
The night before the GP Mainevent I did not see an elegant solution to running more lands for Rain and against Daze/Wasteland and without having Bayou in the 60. The point is: In Europe you NEED 4 Decays and here Miracles do play 2 WASTELANDS. Running with 4 Decay and 1 Bayou against those Miracles or Loam+Chalice is pretty loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
In practice (and cornercases like MUD/D&T/etc. aside) the "turn 3" doesn't necessarily qualify as a problem itself given that EtW needs at least two turns to win anyways and we often play beyond turn 4 against Delver variants or countermagic more often than not. I rather ship a turn and combo with AN turn 3 (via IT, which is the metric for the MB EtW) than cast EtW turn 2 which will never kill before turn 4. From a theoretical POV, AN is the faster kill with less variance depending on your opponent and his/her outs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Aside some exceptions like Miracles EtW is in fact best game 1, but that was never the question. It is: Is EtW, while looking both at pre- & postboard games, worth the deckbuilding tradeoffs and disadvantages it comes with (Moxen)? Can you justify the Moxen in postboard games given how often we side out EtW in general?
I agree @ D&T & Co. but that's an imo marginal amount of decks in the average tournament and as long as we run removal for the turn two Hatebears/Chalice/etc nothing is automatically lost if we can't win turn 1/2. EtW is good against Tempo decks, but the first Problem is getting to 6+ mana to cast EtW in the first place and Moxen are not quite the support you might want to see in your hand. If we're the better AN deck postboard is questionable if the gameplan is to overcome Daze/Wasteland/Pierce by 2-for-1 yourself for a mere mana to get to a total of 7 somehow for IT->AN. The Problem with Mox to support anything aside the T1 (maybe turn 2) All-In is real.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Depends. Imprinting cards into a Mox is nothing you want to do if you opt to combo your opponent out naturally. Neither is playing Mox w/o imprint (given we still talk about the builds with Moxen here). You also have to work towards the Natural kill right from the beginning which also rules out the turn 1 Duress we were talking about earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
It was just that I wanted to see a single copy in most games (Either pre- or post-AN). It sure Sucks in multiples like pre-combo Moxen unlike Cabal RitualsQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I wasn't arguing for Chrome Mox, all of the points I made were based on the list I posted - which doesn't have a single copy. You don't need Chrome Mox in order to make MD Empty the Warrens good, if all you do is play with Empty the Warrens game 1 and SB it for games 2/3 then I'd rather have the options than not. All of your arguments against Empty the Warrens in the article were about it being bad post-board vs Young Pyromancer hate, but that's not really an argument for playing without it game 1 and I don't see why you'd SB a 2nd Empty the Warrens over a 2nd Bayou if you're just going to play with another brick in your SB. I know Ad Nauseam ends the game before Empty the Warrens, but Empty the Warrens wins the game before Ad Nauseam because it's when you go off, not when you kill your opponent that's relevant in some match ups.
Call it player preference, but I don't really like not having the option of being able to Fetch Swamp and conserve mana vs Unknown.dec in a tournament or bad land draws that get blown up by Wasteland for no reason game 1.
I'd still rather cut Xantid Swarm and SB the 2nd Bayou or a Tropical Island as well if 4 Abrupt Decay are that important - I'd also seriously think about Wipe Away. I don't really understand what your guy's hang up is about SBing lands when you've wanted to SB Carpet of Flowers before, it's like the same thing but get you better mulligans as a bonus.
That's actually kind of a possible point against Swamp, whether or not once you cut Xantid Swarm do you want 2 Bayou as opposed to Bayou and Tropical Island since you would need Misty Rainforest for it. Still, basics are just fucking good.
It was more in context of AN math if you have 1 accelerant less than me but a whooping 4cc sorcery to flip for AN. Stopping @4 vs. @2 is a significant difference. Is it more relevantthan having the EtW playline? I dunno. Space for discussion ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
There are matchups like D&T or MUD where I consider the MB EtW really good. I want to board ALL EtWs in against Tempo and Miracles in the future so I have low commitment 4 mana playlines (aka evade blowouts by going all-in in etw and get the Goblins sweeped) to pressure opponents w/o going all in. It's the complete opposite of a brick for these matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
And for the matchups which I want to combo really fast, I want several EtWs to draw them naturally for even cheaper combo attemptsQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I don't play SB Carpets. I hate the idea of SB mana and thus I rather moved more lands into the MB against Daze/Wasteland than boarding Carpets. It's not that the cards concept is significantly different from Cabal Ritual or Rain in terms of longer games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Tropical does nothing for your combo which still is a big minus everytime you consider fetching for it or see it in your opener as the infamous "wasteable Basic Island". The card has a place for the cantrip-heavy ANT lists (feat. 2+ Preordain) with heavy green Sideboard, but as I'm not the guy for greedy turn 1 Ponders against unknown anyways, I don't see advantages of Tropical vs Bayou in general (in TES)Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Streaming: http://www.theepicstorm.com/twitch-tv/
I can only urge to think twice before passing the turn in general. This includes dropping Artifacts or not and, a personal favorite, checking for Therapies in the Graveyard if you cast EtW that turn. Cast EtW -> Check graveyard for Therapies. This need to be a Mantra.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
Stripping ponder was correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
I wrote about the snapcall Therapies in our PM, so I skip it here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
LolQuote:
Originally Posted by LDX
If you want to catch a Spell here, you have to Brainstorm off the Petal and Fetch afterwards to no BS lock yourself. I doubt it would have made much of a difference tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
I should specify this. If you are on the play, Discard to fight an opposing discard Spell is fine, especially if you can profit from the time you gain by making landdrops. This isn't the case here. You can't advance your gamestate at all with these 4 discard spells and still fold to him topdecking a Thoughtseize/Hymn if he hits you Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
Well, yeahQuote:
Originally Posted by LDX
Depending in your hand and lands, Spree would have been awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
You don't win against Chalice + Hatebears with Chrome Mox. The plan is too optimistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDX
I undestand that the difference of TES and TNT is that Cabal ritual needs to be played in 3rd turn if you want to enable a B.Wish in here, no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I however don't see the reason to just sit on fetches as you boys say in here, if you want to sculpt a hand which wins on 2nd turn you need to make ponder or B.S. in order to enable a 2nd turn win most of the times to find the land/Ritual/Threat, the same can be applicable to the way B.S. is played. I sometimes play B.S. in the same turn of comboing and mainly if statistically I need a key card, If I have the mana-Threats enough to combo I just B.S. EoT.
as anote, the lack of C.M. avoids scenarios to just use B.S. in the same turn of Comboing in my opionion,
Also I just don't think sitting on fetches and just not playing ponder or Duress with a Dual is the way to go with TES, the profit of having 15 lands and among them 2 basics is that you ponder with Island or Duress with Swamp whith absolutly no fear of not reaching the desired mana in the followig turns (in TNT), if you play TES and you only play from 12 to 13 lands this is an issue, I read things like playing discard with the swamp, having the Bryant List - I believe this is unrealistic as with only 12 lands it is likely to occur a lot of mana issues and more if you have to fecth for a swamp whih leaves you with 10 lands in the deck.
Also for me the importance of having T1 wins is relevant vs Hymns, Chalice,etc and in general 2cc hateCards on the draw.
Ok, no problem, please could you send me a P.M about what Jamie wrote vs Miracles Strategy in the Facebook as I do not have access. this was regarding my publication of Miracles strategy. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I have had enough 0 Lands Hands 1st Turns Wins with TES to have this scenario absolutly in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
playing TES vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck and on the play - a discard or ponder has made me win a lot of games in different scenarios to just discard a B.S. or -infinite other things I would need derived from casting ponder in st turn,
I just think TES needs to at least ponder on first turn to just have more possibilities to make a 2nd turn win, the case of discard is more relative as you invest 1 spell and if you want to make natural storm this issue may be very relevant.
I have to say that overall and vs wastelandsAndBlue.deck I had more wins with TES than with TNT and this is mainly because of the possibility of enabling more turn 1/2 wins on the spot and with EtW, as said in other posts, I really do not mind to just beeing destroyed by a wasteland after playing a duress stripping a FoW if I already have for example a Gemstone to beeing able to play whatever card I could need. When playing TNT enabling Basic to play ponder or Duress and next trying to sculp a hand to win - a lot of times this time investment results in losses. I think these aproaches are completely different and I would absolutly prefer regarding your lists (Lemnear GP Lille List)
a) to have 15 lands
b) among them 2 basics - Island and Swamp
c) the conclusion of a) and b) which is: beeing able to cast a Ponder or a B.S. whenever I need/want and everyday of the week
maybe I'm not interested in improving the 3rd combo turn of TES, I believe it has an already powerfull turn 3 wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I've seen 'IMS' occurrence a lot of times and what does this exactly mean? I moreless know what this means... (inmutable mana source maybe?)
As said, I understand the logic behind to make TES a super 2nd Turn stable Combo deck, but on the draw you have again the same problem vs 2cc hatecards. Also with the raise of Omnishow or ANT builds (not only D&T) I think having configured the deck as fast of possible is a thing.
it is ok, likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Apart,
I've been testing D.P. in side, sure with my Obsolete configuration of Gemstones and 3 C.M and have to say this:
a) if you don't have LED in hand and C.M. and Lands and Rituals you'll encounter scenarios in which C.M + land is the way to go for a fast kill on 2nd turn, playing B.W. in the 1st turn for D.P. into A.N.
b) if you have LED, B.W.->D.P.->A.N is still a 9 mana requirement card win, well much more better than thos D.R.!! I'll miss this card so much...
Apart II,
On my next spare time I'll be doing some testing vs miracles... not much I've had, I dont remember my last legacy torunament...
I've been evaluating options, the last I tryed which was ok or at least the less worst was 4 A.D. + 2 Xantid.
Reading ANT GP Lille Turnaments reports I believe that I will put by the moment +1 K.G. from side.
I think what happened ias the followig:
a) a Miracles player generally expects ANT as storm archetype to face, and for 2nd games usually sides out a lot of massive removal
b) if the Miracles player faces TES he/she absolutly knows that EtW is a thing to have in mind so I believe that Miracles player in general tends to side out less mass removal than vs TES.
c) Im not sure how Miracles players in GP lille will side from now on vs ANT, as I, as Control player do not conceive to loose vs a horde of Goblins - I think this will not happen anymore... for the sake of god, they have terminus and E.E....
d)I see Xantid as a card vs Miracles and Omnishow, but If I want them to make absolutly useless their removal, maybe I try other strategies like +2pyro +2 xtirpate which also is effective vs Omni show, but still not sure - I saw this in the SloshThedark strategy which also was usefull for him..., I remember when I was testing anyway 3 Extirpate and I was in deed disappointed...
e) next stuff I will test is +2 Xtirpate + 2 pyro + 4 A.D. + 1 K.G. (but I need again 2 free slots... maybe 2 Extirpate is enough - dont know...)
by the moment +1 Krosan plus the already Xantids is a thing to test...
I realize Island and Tropical Island delay the fundamental turn to T3, and while I agree with you about MD Island the problem with your argument on SB Tropical Island is that the match up you would SB Tropical Island in against A) Doesn't have Wasteland and B) isn't won before Turn 3 with Goblins. I like Swamp too much in order to play with Misty Rainforest, but if we ever reach a 4 U/B, 2 U/G, B/G Fetch, 2 U/B, 2 U/R, U, B Dual/basic manabase like ANT then SBing in both Bayou and Tropical Island doesn't seem too out of line to me because the priorities change post-board.
I realize how good Fetchlands are, but that doesn't mean we should only rely on Fetchlands in order to protect our manabase at the cost of never being able to spend our mana efficiently on discard. There have been a lot of games where I've Probed, seen a Force of Will and Wasteland, Fetched Swamp, Therapied Force of Will and then won on T2 with Goblins and I think you're missing out on these windows by not playing Swamp or Empty the Warrens.
Regarding the single 4cc card difference post Ad Nauseam, I think you're getting hung up on casting Ad Nauseam game 1 when we more often than not cast Empty the Warrens. So if we're winning most of our T1 games with Goblins, drawing Empty the Warrens off of an Ad Nauseam chain is only a secondary consideration because we are no longer an Ad Nauseam deck in the same sense that ANT is no longer an Ad Nauseam deck by not making it our primary win condition.
In the event we do Ad Nauseam, it's probably because we either had the luxury of mana to do it quickly or we waited to do it vs control, and in neither of these situations are our life total ever under pressure. Also, it's not like you never draw into Empty the Warrens on your way to 4 life or that you can't keep drawing with Ad Nauseam past 4 life with Empty the Warrens still in your deck, you just have to accept that you'll lose a marginal% of the time if you can't wait to untap in order to win the game.
@Pelikandu, I don't think Chrome Mox adds enough to T1 win% in order to bother with it just for D&T and Co, yes we're more reliant on the coin flip in order to win the match but we're more consistent vs every Island.dec in the meta and that is far more important. I honestly think that if you want to beat D&T that consistently with speed then you are better off playing 4 Empty the Warrens in your 75.
I've played a lot of different lists over the week and I liked how mine performed over the weekend even tho' I only went 3-2, it feels like it's really in a Goldilocks Zone of consistency vs speed and I think a lot of you need to stop being so stubborn and start playing other people's lists in order to get a feel for what you do and don't like about certain card choices. I know I wouldn't have come across my current list if I hadn't bother to actually test the stuff other people were talking about so I could integrate what was worth keeping.