Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Actually, many people, mostly Europeans, are dropping the 3rd Entreat in the SB.

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/196456 This Luis guy in France, for example.

Also the other famous European Miracles player Angelo is doing the same: https://www.facebook.com/JKEntertain...40377802660761

Angelo's list is particularly interesting. It appears that he swapped the Counterspell in the SB slot with the MD 4th FoW.

I really like the 3 Snaps + 3 Clique setup, however you want to customize it in your 75.

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Hello that Luis guy is actually me :laugh:

I am not usually a Miracles player, i like the deck but i'm still learning it, usually i play Stoneblade decks.

I believe that Philipp list is perfect, i just adjusted the list to my local meta.

I decided to play with the REB/Pyroblast maindeck (The NJ list) because some of the best players on my store play blue decks and they are testing new lists with DTT, stuff like:

Grixis Control
Gold Digger
Patriot Stoneblade

Then we have a crowd that really really hates blue decks and that love their Calices and Chokes, so i decided to play two Wear/Tears on the side.

The Blood Moon is there because i always play against Turbo Depths, it happens to be good against Manlands and BUG decks so i decided to try it.

I really like Keranos, yesterday i actually won a game against Punishing Jund because of him, but i think that the Entreat would be good on that spot also.

In Paris there are a lot of Omnishow players, and they are all playing Boseiju, it can be a really difficult matchup, how are you guys fighting Boseiju? I think that Clique is not enough.

That said, if i would play the deck in a big event i would most probably play Philipp or Angelo list :)

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Originally Posted by Lordofthestringz

In Paris there are a lot of Omnishow players, and they are all playing Boseiju, it can be a really difficult matchup, how are you guys fighting Boseiju? I think that Clique is not enough.

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Omnitell can be rough sometimes, but it's a very winnable matchup. If you know that they are most likely playing Boseiju, then it's time to start countering their cantrips. This means sometimes even Force of Willing a Brainstorm if need be. Counter Top becomes more valuable when trying to attack their cantrips so try and get that down when you can. If you are clocking them they will likely only activate their Boseiju for a Dig Through Time or Show and Tell so it is important to get Snapcaster or Clique into play as soon as possible. Hope this is helpful.

If you're afraid of Boseju why not play a few Wastelands? They also come in handy against stuff like Caverns of Soul, Dark Depths, Grove of the Burnwillows, annoying manlands, Cloudposts, Glacial Chasm, Gaea's Cradle, and probably a lot more that i forgot to mention now.

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Originally Posted by mulder

If you're afraid of Boseju why not play a few Wastelands? They also come in handy against stuff like Caverns of Soul, Dark Depths, Grove of the Burnwillows, annoying manlands, Cloudposts, Glacial Chasm, Gaea's Cradle, and probably a lot more that i forgot to mention now.

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Suggesting wasteland in miracles?

We value our landdrops way more than 90% of the field does. What would you cut for wasteland? Basics? That's just plain dumb, and makes our deck much weaker vs. wasteland decks. Fetchlands? Making top and brainstorm (and the manasymbols-spells ratio significantly worse)? Duals? Making hitting UU for jace, WW for Entreat etc much, much harder.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Suggesting wasteland in miracles?

We value our landdrops way more than 90% of the field does. What would you cut for wasteland? Basics? That's just plain dumb, and makes our deck much weaker vs. wasteland decks. Fetchlands? Making top and brainstorm (and the manasymbols-spells ratio significantly worse)? Duals? Making hitting UU for jace, WW for Entreat etc much, much harder.

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You can think of wasteland like a spell that sometimes also gets to make mana. It does not have to replace a land. It could even be a sideboard card. Blood moon, ruination or Back to basics are probably better options, but this narrow thinking of wastelands applications frustrates me (and is pervasive among legacy players). In vintage wasteland/stripe mine is absent in tempo decks, and basically just played in MUD and control decks. Control decks are not using wastes to lock someone out of a game, we are using it as just another level of interaction. Its like a counterspell or removal spell that just happens to interact in a way our other cards cant.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

You can think of wasteland like a spell that sometimes also gets to make mana. It does not have to replace a land. It could even be a sideboard card. Blood moon, ruination or Back to basics are probably better options, but this narrow thinking of wastelands applications frustrates me (and is pervasive among legacy players). In vintage wasteland/stripe mine is absent in tempo decks, and basically just played in MUD and control decks. Control decks are not using wastes to lock someone out of a game, we are using it as just another level of interaction. Its like a counterspell or removal spell that just happens to interact in a way our other cards cant.

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You can't compare Legacy to Vintage. In Vintage, you have decks that are based entirely around certain lands, and Wastelanding/Strip Mining a Bazaar, Library, Workshop, or Academy (just to name a few) can just win the game sometimes. The payoff when you hit these lands is huge in Vintage.

Lands aren't that powerful in Legacy, and you'd rather be just developing your own mana than putting your opponent off whatever effect their lands may have, because this deck has one of the most powerful endgames in the entire format.

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Originally Posted by KevinH

You can't compare Legacy to Vintage. In Vintage, you have decks that are based entirely around certain lands, and Wastelanding/Strip Mining a Bazaar, Library, Workshop, or Academy (just to name a few) can just win the game sometimes. The payoff when you hit these lands is huge in Vintage.

Lands aren't that powerful in Legacy, and you'd rather be just developing your own mana than putting your opponent off whatever effect their lands may have, because this deck has one of the most powerful endgames in the entire format.

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I agree that it is not normally worth it to run wastelands in Miracles but if people are looking for specific answers to boseiju wasteland is an option. Omnitell might be one of our easiest matchups post board if they don't have boseiju and a very hard matchup if they have boseiju so having an answer to a land makes a very big difference here.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

You can think of wasteland like a spell that sometimes also gets to make mana. It does not have to replace a land. It could even be a sideboard card. Blood moon, ruination or Back to basics are probably better options, but this narrow thinking of wastelands applications frustrates me (and is pervasive among legacy players). In vintage wasteland/stripe mine is absent in tempo decks, and basically just played in MUD and control decks. Control decks are not using wastes to lock someone out of a game, we are using it as just another level of interaction. Its like a counterspell or removal spell that just happens to interact in a way our other cards cant.

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I am fully aware that wasteland functions more like a spell, than an actual land. That doesn't mean you can play it EoT, flashback with snapcaster or mage sure you hit your (coloured) landdrops.

Also; Vintage and Legacy are not comparable at all, regarding wasteland. Vs shops, wasteland is a viable strategy. Vs dredge, it can often function as a hate card. Vs tolarian academy, it makes them not have 8 mana on turn 3. In legacy, it might target a boseiju, an ancient tomb... If you stumble upon those matchups. Otherwise it might be utterly garbage vs. delver decks, bad in the mirror, poor vs the midrange decks and a blank vs most other combo decks...

If you want to interact with lands, go for Blood Moon or Back to Basics.

Saw a Liston mtgtop8 run a mainboard dust bowl. That seems more viable than a wasteland.


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What's this non-sense about running Wasteland and/or Dustbowl.

Ponder Miracles has its pros and cons, just as Legend Miracles.

If you want to be favored against Omni-tell or any combo decks that run Boseiju, just play Legend Miracles.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Omnitell can be rough sometimes, but it's a very winnable matchup. If you know that they are most likely playing Boseiju, then it's time to start countering their cantrips. This means sometimes even Force of Willing a Brainstorm if need be. Counter Top becomes more valuable when trying to attack their cantrips so try and get that down when you can. If you are clocking them they will likely only activate their Boseiju for a Dig Through Time or Show and Tell so it is important to get Snapcaster or Clique into play as soon as possible. Hope this is helpful.

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Thanks :) it was really helpful.

Hi guys,
today i've seen a Miracle's list with this manabase:

Lands [21]
1 Mystic Gate
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Th classic 3 Tundra becaome 2 Tundra + 1 Mystic Gate.
This simplifies the cast of Judgment and the Flasback costs....but...are this a right way?

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

Hi guys,
today i've seen a Miracle's list with this manabase:

Lands [21]
1 Mystic Gate
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Th classic 3 Tundra becaome 2 Tundra + 1 Mystic Gate.
This simplifies the cast of Judgment and the Flasback costs....but...are this a right way?

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I feel like adding another land that can't cast ponder T1 is bad news.

I disagree. The change in percentages is negligible and I think it's a great card. I play it often and it's always been more of a positive than a negative. Wasteland is declining and it's only a singleton. Moreover, I'm less concerned about ponder and more concerned with counterbalance. You can turn 1 plains and still drop CB on turn 2. That's really good.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Mystic Gate is decent tech against Choke, too. I've also seen Glacial Fortress used for this (in Stoneblade lists, not Miracles), but it is true that Plains into Mystic Gate + Counterbalance is pretty nice.

I run the 2/1 Tundra/Gate split, due to budget reasons and gotta say that I would love to have the third Tundra instead. Not only are hands with a Gate as the only land insta mulls, but I also somewhat regularly run into situations where not having a third fetchable white source off of the Delta/Tarn is awkward (though seldom backbreaking). Also had a memorable game vs D&T where I lost my second basic Plains to a Mangara early on and got 2 Tundras blown up, which left me unable to Entreat for a long time since Mystic Gate was not fetchable.

A big problem with mystic gate is also the fact that we want to play ponder and leave upp flusterstorm turn 2. With 4 Ponders I don't think you can afford to run a non blue land (turn1 atleast) and if you do I would go up to 22 lands and add either karakas or mountain before considering Mystic Gate. If choke is extremly popular I would rather play an additional wear/tear in my sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Mackan

A big problem with mystic gate is also the fact that we want to play ponder and leave upp flusterstorm turn 2. With 4 Ponders I don't think you can afford to run a non blue land (turn1 atleast) and if you do I would go up to 22 lands and add either karakas or mountain before considering Mystic Gate. If choke is extremly popular I would rather play an additional wear/tear in my sideboard.

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One of the advantages of playing Miracles is consistency. If you expect choke add 1Counterspell post-board, not only does it answer choke but also other strange threats that may appear.

If you really want to answer Boseiju, it's likely your best answer is actually Meddling Mage. Of course, Meddling Mage is not a mainboard card and it seems that one might even advocate for wasteland as a mainboard card, so there are different considerations to keep in mind. That said, I would prefer running mage in the sideboard to combat Boseiju before I'd consider wasteland in the main (or side) to combat Boseiju.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

If you really want to answer Boseiju, it's likely your best answer is actually Meddling Mage. Of course, Meddling Mage is not a mainboard card and it seems that one might even advocate for wasteland as a mainboard card, so there are different considerations to keep in mind. That said, I would prefer running mage in the sideboard to combat Boseiju before I'd consider wasteland in the main (or side) to combat Boseiju.

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Boseiju is a land, Meddling Mage can only name nonland cards..
Try locking them with counterbalance and win before they find Boseiju. New lists of omnitell have a hard time beating you when counterbalance has CMC 3 on top of library.