[Deck] The Rock

we do not really want to chumpblock with goyfs and knights, we mostly have the bigger creatures in game (only new horizons, aggro loam, aeon bridge and reanimator gets bigger ones), so there won't be any need of chumpblocking, besides the swords are also way stronger in defense than collar

the new sword/equipment is being spoken a lot of in the death and taxes thread, appearingly it should be a protection green sword, just like SoLaS, and SoFaI are for the other colors

i myself tried out the SFM with equipment package, i had the list posted some time ago, in addiction to the "cantrip" from SFM i added horizon canopys, but after a lot of testing i am now back again with my nighmare list, the manabase could not afford having only one basic of each type, at least not for me, plus the equipments give a aggro boost for sure, but they are quite vulnerable and if we go for SFM we need the equipments for cardadvantage, but they will often just be destroyed by pridemages, so there will be no cardadvantage

because of that i am back with my recurring nightmare list and with confidants again, i just wish i could play more kitchen finks, they are just awesome with nightmare, as is witness, last time i played with a friend i won in a instant (against DnT) the moment recurring nightmare hit the game, because i had kitchen finks in play and a fleshbag marauder in grave, plus a oran rief to abuse the hell out of finks

if anyone wants to see my list i will gladly post it

@Fran:

I like your list, it's very similar to mine. I agree with you that the Stoneforge Mystic is worth running, but I don't like to run too many equipments because we don't play Brainstorm to shuffle extras back, and you never want to really see more than one equipment because of the tempo loss. Mother of Runes has been playing great for me; it protects Tidehollow Sculler and Dark Confidant, is an excellent chumpblocker (especially when wearing Jitte), and, along with Elspeth, can provide reach by pushing a large Knight or Goyf past blockers. Two Dark Confidants I think is right; none of the creatures I play are very good blockers (a lot of 2/2s and 1/2s) and so I might take a lot of damage early on from a deck like Zoo. I might put it up to three, but I don't know what to cut.

@zalachan:

Basilisk Collar is good, but I don't think it's worth a maindeck slot. I tried it in my list and there were too many times where it didn't do enough; I just wanted to see another creature. I almost never grabbed it with Mystic, since Jitte is just better.

@ Steve:

Post ze list :D

-Matt

I don't like Confidant and Tombstalker in the same deck. With 4 SDT it's dangerous. With 2, it's suicidal. I also think you're stronger without the Mystic Package. You've got Goyfs and Knights to provide big beats, you don't really need EQ for them. You can use the slots for more disruptive elements. I'd run Extirpates in the main and a Crucible and a pair of E. Tutors. Maybe 1 SoLS as anti-plow. Acquiring more Vindicates would be good, as packing 4 Waste and 4 Vindicate can randomly win games against 3 color decks (i.e. most of the format). I'd also play at least 3 Extirpate main. Extirpate let's you win against decks that have a combo backup plan (Thopter/NOPro/43 Land) and is still solid against everything else. If you're packing discard and LD, which you are, it's a good way to wreck people's game. Ever Extirpated Trop on turn 2 vs. CB Top? It puts them WAY behind the curve.

Finally, I feel like Rock should always have at least 2 Edicts main. They're good against a wide range of things from Emrakul to Argothian Enchantress to Progenitus. It's certainly better than Path.

all right here comes my list, i am still testing it in this configuration though


lands 22

3x windswepht heath
2x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire (only because i only got 2 verdant and no march flats)
2x overgrown tomb
1x godless shrine
1x temple garden
1x horizon canopy
1x oran rief, the vastewood
1x volraths stronghold (not satisfied with anymore, will probably become karakas)
1x bojuka bog
1x wasteland
2x swamp
2x forest
2x plains

creatures 19

3x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x knoght of the reliquary
3x eternal witness
4x kitchen finks
2x fleshbag marauder

spells 20

3x thoughtsieze
2x inquisition of kozilek/cabal theraphy (still testing which fits better, but i do not like theraphy that much)
4x swords to plowshares
3x senseis divining top
3x vindicate
3x pernicious deed
2x recurring nightmare

61 cards in total

as you can see a lot of 1-off lands, but the only ones i do not like that much are wasteland and a little bit maybe canopy, and as allready written stronghold, i find it to much of a mana investement lately, plus the colorless mana is surely not what we want, but even with that many utility lands it works, though i probably will cut one
besides oran rief is really good with finks and nightmare if you can tutor for it with knight

the fleshbag marauders together with nightmare are awesome, and kitchen finks is surely my favorite creature in the deck
the marauders were really good right from the first time i tried them, it was worth cutting a vindicate and a discard spell for them

nightmare helps a lot in games where you are low on life, sacrifice finks gain 2 life and opponent sacrifices a creature in best case scenario

i am not that satisfied with knight of the reliquary, someone else posted a list with elspeth in his place, maybe this would be stronger, specially if i want to abuse nightmare, but as of now i will do more testing


@ spikeymikey:

confidant and tombstalker in the same deck works and quite well to, i even played them in the same deck without divining tops, i had 4 confidants and a 2-off tombstalker, and i only got screwed by it 3 times in about 50 games (did not really count but it feels like about that many), when you play both and it happens to you to flip tombstalker it may even kill you, and it is actually because of that, that everyone is scared of playing both even if its really unprobable to flip a tombstalker with confidant

but with divining tops even if you play only 2 divining tops and 2 tombstalker, its no problem at all

Tombstalker is a nombo with Goyf and KotR, your two main beaters. He's a nombo with Dark Confidant, your only draw engine. In short, he works poorly with your deck. I'm not sure what argument there is in his favor that you want to keep playing it. With the list you have right now, you're basically a big slow Zoo. The idea behind Rock is to force interaction with your opponent and beat them with card quality. You have no meaningful way to interact with Progenitus or Emrakul, little recourse against Storm and mediocre interaction against Thopter Sword (you've got Deed and Vindicate to Kill Foundry but with 1 Waste and 1 Bog, you've got few outs to Academy Ruins. So basically, the only decks you've got game against are those that don't have an advantage engine like Zoo, Fish or Goblins. Lands and Dredge will just ignore you. And of the 3 positive matchups you have, 2 of them, Goblins and Fish, are predicated on them not being able to disrupt your mana. You've got enough land that you should be able to just play through Wastelands. Basics only help in the face of recursive LD, i.e. against Lands.

This is why I'm such a big proponent of Extirpate in Rock. When you Thoughtseize a Natural Order and Extirpate it, you never have to worry about Prog again. Ditto Thopter Foundry or Sword of the Meek. When you run Edict, Emrakul is a significantly smaller problem. When you stop trying to run your mana off basics and pack in some more duals, you can support the Wastelands you need to beat Lands game 1.

spikeymikey, i sure would love to see your list

sure i know how good extirpate is, but if i am not running them it does not mean i got worse matchups against other decks than a rock with extirpates

besides i did not post any sideboard, so you can hopefully immagine what will be in my sideboard (though right now i am changing it a bit)

against emrakul and any big shrouded creature i am running the fleshbag marauders, and i sideboard more edicts and wing shards (though wing shards are not that good against emrakul)
and every rock deck has problems with combo, i am sure your's has too (even with extirpates)

but honestly i would love to see your list

PS: the tombstalker think obviously depends on what beaters you are playing, time ago i played doran instead of knight (got them just recently) and in that case i would definitely play tombstalker as well, even if a played confidant and no tops, but now since i have the knights, i droped tombstalker because it has bad interaction with to many of my beaters

hopefully i did not forget to write one of my thoughts, because right now i am studying for my last exam in university for this semester (which is tomorrow)

Sure, Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, Goyf, and Knight in the same deck CAN work, but the real question is, is it worth the risk?

I've tried Tombstalker in my list, and I've found that, 99 times out of 100, Elspeth is just better. It requires less black mana (my list is pretty black-light), gives fits to control, and actually has positive synergy with Knight and Goyf rather than negative synergy. Personally I think that the only reason to run Tombstalker over Elspeth is if your list is white-light or if it already plays Elspeth.

@SpikeyMikey: I think you are underestimating the number of good matchups The Rock has. Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk aren't the only good matchups. I think Lands is actually a positive matchup, especially for those builds that run 4 Knight + 3-4 Wasteland + Bog. And sure Dredge ignores us Game 1, but it does that against most decks. I admit I haven't tested Thopter Sword matchup all that much, but it seems like hand disruption + Pridemage/Deed/Vindicate should be able to keep them off their combo. Extirpate might help in all of these matchups, but it's either pure garbage or, at best, subpar in many others. It's bad in any tribal match, it's bad against Zoo, it's bad against CounterTop (Thoughtseizing NO + Extirpate is still card disadvantage, and they can still soft-lock you), it's bad against combo, and it's only decent against New Horizons. I think the matchups that it's bad against outweigh the matchups it's good against, which is why I think it should be relegated to the sideboard (though I chose the more aggressive Macabre in my list). However I do agree that when it's good, it's really good (i.e. against Lands).

Regarding Edict, I don't think it's that necessary in a Rock list, and it's not necessarily better than Swords/Path. Swords/Path are better against New Horizons, Zoo, and Tribal, while Edict is better against Reanimator/Show and Tell/Progenitus. I'll consider replacing Path in my board with Edict, but I don't think there are enough Emrakul/Prog decks yet to justify it.

I've tested the Thopter match and it can be interesting. They have Countertop, which isn't a huge both, but the problem is they have Enlightened tutor to put whatever CMC they want on top to counter that back-breaking spell. That can be a pain, as is Jace TMS. If he stays online, he usually wrecks your way of actually removing him. But, it's nice to know we play 4 Vindicate and Pulse, which is good against the Tokens I hear. In some ways, it's another Tribal Matchup with Counter-Top instead of Standstill or something. If you can land Plague on Thopter, they're pretty much done.

The key here: take out Academy Ruins, Thopter Foundry, and Jace.They can try to Moat you out, but you blow it up. They Trinkey into Needle, you go around it. They're a bit like Old School Keeper in a way, but you have answers for their answers.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

all right here comes my list, i am still testing it in this configuration though


lands 22

3x windswepht heath
2x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire (only because i only got 2 verdant and no march flats)
2x overgrown tomb
1x godless shrine
1x temple garden
1x horizon canopy
1x oran rief, the vastewood
1x volraths stronghold (not satisfied with anymore, will probably become karakas)
1x bojuka bog
1x wasteland
2x swamp
2x forest
2x plains

creatures 19

3x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x knoght of the reliquary
3x eternal witness
4x kitchen finks
2x fleshbag marauder

spells 20

3x thoughtsieze
2x inquisition of kozilek/cabal theraphy (still testing which fits better, but i do not like theraphy that much)
4x swords to plowshares
3x senseis divining top
3x vindicate
3x pernicious deed
2x recurring nightmare

61 cards in total

as you can see a lot of 1-off lands, but the only ones i do not like that much are wasteland and a little bit maybe canopy, and as allready written stronghold, i find it to much of a mana investement lately, plus the colorless mana is surely not what we want, but even with that many utility lands it works, though i probably will cut one
besides oran rief is really good with finks and nightmare if you can tutor for it with knight

the fleshbag marauders together with nightmare are awesome, and kitchen finks is surely my favorite creature in the deck
the marauders were really good right from the first time i tried them, it was worth cutting a vindicate and a discard spell for them

nightmare helps a lot in games where you are low on life, sacrifice finks gain 2 life and opponent sacrifices a creature in best case scenario

i am not that satisfied with knight of the reliquary, someone else posted a list with elspeth in his place, maybe this would be stronger, specially if i want to abuse nightmare, but as of now i will do more testing


@ spikeymikey:

confidant and tombstalker in the same deck works and quite well to, i even played them in the same deck without divining tops, i had 4 confidants and a 2-off tombstalker, and i only got screwed by it 3 times in about 50 games (did not really count but it feels like about that many), when you play both and it happens to you to flip tombstalker it may even kill you, and it is actually because of that, that everyone is scared of playing both even if its really unprobable to flip a tombstalker with confidant

but with divining tops even if you play only 2 divining tops and 2 tombstalker, its no problem at all

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If you are going to run recurring nightmate...you should run a dryad arbor as it is a fetchable creature. Also, knight of the reliquary is amazing...and should be run with and not instead of elspeth.

the only problem i got right now with elspeth, i haven't got any, and cant afford them now, plus what to cut if i want to fit her in the list

but i do not really understand why i should run dryad arbor if i am running nightmare, sure its a fetchable creature but i do not really bother saccing knight after having attacked to get kitchen finks and than knight back, or saccing knight for witness works as well, so i do not see dryad arbor as usefull, but maybe you can explain a little better what you were thinking about

my thoughts were ether playing elspeth or knight in this build not both together, because elspeth gives immidiate advantages, specially with nightmare and can pump all my small creatures to be threats, but knight instead is a huge monster which gives me a landtoolbox, which is really strong and reliable, and with oran rief and kitchen finks i can get tons of life and cardadvantage with nightmare but it needs a little time to set up

right now i am using knight but i am not sure if it is the stronger choice, i hope i made my thoughts a little clearer, specially the one why i thought that there is needed or knight or elspeth, i do not play both simply due to lack of space i would say

Quote:

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but i do not really understand why i should run dryad arbor if i am running nightmare, sure its a fetchable creature but i do not really bother saccing knight after having attacked to get kitchen finks and than knight back, or saccing knight for witness works as well, so i do not see dryad arbor as usefull, but maybe you can explain a little better what you were thinking about

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Dryad Arbor is not only fetchable by Knight, but by Verdant Catacombs and Windswept Heath as well.

Brian: I agree that the Lands M/U is slightly favorable with 3-4 Wastes and a Bog or two. But a listing with 1 Waste and 1 Bog, not so much.

My list, for reference:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage

3 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Thoughtseize
4 Extirpate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Of course, this is what I play on MWS; it's tuned to beat junk decks like Stax and black midrange. If I were to bring a deck like this to Colombus, which is unlikely (I'd rather bring my homebrew Thopter Top), I'd probably cut an Extirpate and 2 Elspeth for 2 E Tutors and either a Duress or a Crucible.

Edit: I've only played Dredge on MWS twice with this but both times I've beaten it. Extirpate on Bridge buys a lot of time and a second one on Narcomoeba with trigger on the stack puts it away. You don't care about Ichorid slow-roll. I wouldn't say it's unloseable, but it's a strong M/U.

I have a question on Pulse vs. Vindicate. How often do you find yourself having the chance to blow up multiple permanents and how often would you prefer to blow up a land? And how often does it really not matter?

I would say that I use Vindicate on land about half the time. Keep in mind that I play on MWS and rarely see tier decks. I almost never see CB. I feel that it depends heavily on your deck construction. If you're running less than 3 Wastes, I would consider Pulse. Personally, I rarely find situations where I need to Pulse multiple things, but the mana fits better (BG vs. WB) and the situation could arise where I wanted it. Having additional answers to problem lands like Maze and Ruins is important to me, which is why I will always run Vindicate, but I can understand why people would go Pulse. But the way I see Rock style decks (and we really should come up with a new name since there is no Deranged Hermit anymore) is that I'm playing a counterless control. Denying my opponent a color (easy to do with 7 LD and Extirpates) is as good as making them discard or countering the spells they draw in those colors.

I would certainly not call Stax junk. Stax destroys Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, it's just really bad against Pernicious Deed. Really bad.

-Matt

Stax has bad matchup against it's own deck. Too often I've seen people forced to mull to 5 to get a keepable hand, drop 1 or two disruption pieces then stall out and do nothing relevant. I just beat it with Zoo last night. Of course 1 match doesn't mean much, but I rarely play any of the decks you listed. I do know that my lifetime win %age against Legacy Stax post T1 split is well over 90%. There are T2 decks I'd be more scared of. I don't even like Deed against them, it requires dropping more lands than I'm comfortable with and walking into Geddon. I'd rather just spot remove where I need to.

My point is that Stax should be an easy matchup for Rock unless you really get screwed over. Stax is a good deck in its own right, and does what it does well: try to lock the game. It is brutally topdeck dependent, and that's its main problem. But, let's leave this for the Stax thread.

I'm not totally sold on the Stoneforge package, but apparently there's a new Sword along the lines of SoFI coming out. This could be interesting. :D

I'll be playing Rock hopefully on July 22nd, so I'll post in the next few days so we can tweak.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

I would say that I use Vindicate on land about half the time. Keep in mind that I play on MWS and rarely see tier decks. I almost never see CB. I feel that it depends heavily on your deck construction. If you're running less than 3 Wastes, I would consider Pulse. Personally, I rarely find situations where I need to Pulse multiple things, but the mana fits better (BG vs. WB) and the situation could arise where I wanted it. Having additional answers to problem lands like Maze and Ruins is important to me, which is why I will always run Vindicate, but I can understand why people would go Pulse. But the way I see Rock style decks (and we really should come up with a new name since there is no Deranged Hermit anymore) is that I'm playing a counterless control. Denying my opponent a color (easy to do with 7 LD and Extirpates) is as good as making them discard or countering the spells they draw in those colors.

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I think Vindicate is more powerful. IE: the situations where you can land screw or tempo an opponent with Vindicate + Wasteland come up more often than generating a 2 for 1 with Maelstrom Pulse. Maelstrom Pulse does have some perks though, it can tear through Empty the Warrens, Thopter, Bridge from Below and Elspeth tokens. Also, if one is running Swords to Plowshares, Maelstrom Pulse has the added benefit of being off color removal vs Iona on White.

Overall the two are similar enough that it probably doesn't make too much of a difference, one can mostly chose the slot based on what situations they want to capitalize on / have outs to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I think Vindicate is more powerful. IE: the situations where you can land screw or tempo an opponent with Vindicate + Wasteland come up more often than generating a 2 for 1 with Maelstrom Pulse. Maelstrom Pulse does have some perks though, it can tear through Empty the Warrens, Thopter, Bridge from Below and Elspeth tokens. Also, if one is running Swords to Plowshares, Maelstrom Pulse has the added benefit of being off color removal vs Iona on White.

Overall the two are similar enough that it probably doesn't make too much of a difference, one can mostly chose the slot based on what situations they want to capitalize on / have outs to.

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Let's be honest, against Thopter tokens, your best bet is killing the Foundry, otherwise they all just come right back. Elspeth rarely makes more than one token at a time, so that's probably a blank too. And ETW is usually coming turn 1 from Belcher, making this a bit slow compared to EE. But like I said, I can see why some people would run it. I just agree with you that manascrewing an opponent with 7-8 LD cards between Waste and Vindicate is Some Good.