[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

The only qualm I would have with cutting DRs completely is that sometimes you are put in situations where you will drastically need to tip the scales. LEDless as it is already has a somewhat difficult time (barring the help of godly dredges) against quick aggro. I know that if Zoo ever gives me the chance, I will go ape-shit and dump as much stuff into my yard as possible just so I can get as many zombies and a DR target into play before they untap and find a way to remove my bridges. Your ability to generate more zombies right then and there will be limited only to how many Therapies and Ichorids you have sitting in your yard. Sure your opening hands might be better, but when you really need to get the ball rolling, the option won't even be there.

@ Nidd

Quote:

---

Taking out the Darkblasts and 2 Thugs and replacing them by 3 DR and 1 Sphinx of Lost Truths and 1 FKZ seems so much better to me.

---

Having fewer dredgers so that we can run DR+Targets might be worth it. Here's some preliminary numbers to think about.

Chances of opening with a dredger in hand with your modifications:
Draw 7-card hand -- 74%
Play 8-card hand -- 79%

Change of opening with a dredger with 15 dredgers:
Draw 7-card hand -- 88%
Play 8-card hand -- 92%

Opening a hand with [Land][Dredger][Draw/Discard Effect] (but not including therapy or CCol though) with your modifications:
Draw 7-card hand -- 53%
Play 8-card hand -- 63%

With the 15 dredgers:
Draw 7-card hand -- 65%
Play 8-card hand -- 74%

Those numbers are still taking into account running the full 4x Breakthrough + 4x Careful Study, which normal versions of this deck can't always afford unless they are removing some GY-Goodies like Therapy, an Ichorid, or what have you. Those odds might be slightly lower for most of the lists in the thread. We are just comparing the difference between having dredgers in this particular version of the deck vs. DR+Targets.

There is about a ~12% difference, which certainly might be worth sacrificing for the raw 'oomph' and explosive nature of DR. But, you usually need the explosiveness when you didn't open consistently enough, right?

We should also take into account that fact that you are more likely chain Dredges together the more you have. It isn't just about having a good opening hand, it is also about linking together dredgers in many cases.


@ Yawgmoth'sWill

Quote:

---

why the 4/2 Split about Careful Study / Tireless Tribe... isn't a 2/4 Split more recommended for a better consistency...

---

Tireless Tribe is a great blocker and gives a good way to slow roll with a single dredger, but Careful Study adds to the explosive nature of the deck while also keeping some of that consistency. It isn't uncommon to open with 2 Draw/Discard outlets, which means that Careful Study almost always is used to dredge. I think DR's explosiveness is partially substituted for by the consistency of the dredging power of this version. While this version is going to be more consistent, we have to think about which card choices can give us both consistency and explosiveness. Careful Study, unlike Tireless Tribe, is doing more to make the deck explosive than Tribe, so that is why I would prefer a 4/2 or 4/3 split than the opposite.


@ Yesmilord

It is true that moving away from DR makes you much more reliant upon Bridge, Narco, Ichorid, and Therapy if you are forced into position where you absolutely must explode out. You are also more likely to see those cards to begin with. Considering the consistency improvement and slightly improved ground game, you may find yourself forced into those 'explode or die' positions less often though.

You can also bait them into removing bridges (which they may not be able to do a second time). You are also in a better position to recover from it.

I'm not saying this is the way to go though. I'm just exploring the possibility; I think Taco's idea has merit.





peace,
4eak

I am against completely cutting Dreat Return. I cut all the Dread Return targets from my list and run just 2 of them, but they are important as a sac outlet. Furthermore I advocate for not running any additional targets but reanimating a GGT is just so important against Tempo Threshold, Goblins, Merfolk... Well anything that ain't combo and doesn't play swords to get rid of him.

Yea 4eak, I definitely think Taco's list has merit too: for a while I was playing the deck without any "true" DR targets and I was still doing fine. I was something like 3 Breakthroughs, 2 DRs, 1 Darkblast, and 15 lands.

I don't think it's that you "won't need the explosiveness of DR when you open consistently"; I think it's just the mere fact that there are games where there's no reason to risk by slowly churning out tokens when you should be able to overwhelm your opponent right then and there by generating a ridiculous amount of zombies instead of waiting a whole extra turn for your Ichorids to come online and allowing them the chance to remove your bridges. What I DO like is the fact that the list can still support 4 Breakthrough - but what's the point of pushing your deck so hard if you're not guaranteed any explosive results?

I eventually went back to having Witness because she's just nutty and I personally felt like she's been responsible for ending matches by herself when games could have gone on for much, much longer without her help. You don't have to run DR targets with DR, as troll is often decent enough, but it'd be a waste not to.

Also, the way you were modifying the deck in response to Nidd, we're essentially taking the list, adding more Breakthroughs, and dropping the amount of dredgers AND permanent discard outlets. I think that's a bit backwards from our original goal. If we wanted to be more ballsy like that, I'd suggest trying out the Spanish versions that utilize Lotus Petal and Tolarian Winds (oh no not this discussion lol).

For who might be interested to read a tourney report, I ended up taking LEDless dredge to a 5-8 split at DHG on Saturday.

Let's re-evaluate the card. The biggest thing about Dread Return was that you could get a lot of tokens right away. Getting an FKZ or Sage with it was just an added (albeit major) bonus. If there's a card which would let you do the same thing (get lots of tokens) for another effect, that would be a start for some discussion.

Sunshine, I read your report; you seem to have brought in Iona a lot. Do you think she is main deck material?
How useful was Witness?

I've been thinking to cutting the DR's to 2 copies and just run 1 target (instead of 2) to be able to run 4 Careful Study and 4 Breakthrough (I run 3/3 at the moment).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kicks_422

Let's re-evaluate the card. The biggest thing about Dread Return was that you could get a lot of tokens right away. Getting an FKZ or Sage with it was just an added (albeit major) bonus. If there's a card which would let you do the same thing (get lots of tokens) for another effect, that would be a start for some discussion.

---

I gave up on Gargadon in LED Ichorid in a non-Control environment, but he should be a perfect replacement as what you are looking for. And even better in the Bloodghast lists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZZZ

Sunshine, I read your report; you seem to have brought in Iona a lot. Do you think she is main deck material?
How useful was Witness?

---

Witness was outstanding as usual. To be honest I brought Iona in more often than I normally would have just to see how she performed. She came up big on a few occasions - but I haven't made a final decision on her yet. It doesn't look like she'll be in the main deck but she might have a home in my SB for certain metas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Parcher

I gave up on Gargadon in LED Ichorid in a non-Control environment, but he should be a perfect replacement as what you are looking for. And even better in the Bloodghast lists.

---

Gargadon is indeed good, but the two cards act in totally different ways: One of them needs to get dredged, and the other one needs to be in your starting 7.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kicks_422

Let's re-evaluate the card. The biggest thing about Dread Return was that you could get a lot of tokens right away. Getting an FKZ or Sage with it was just an added (albeit major) bonus. If there's a card which would let you do the same thing (get lots of tokens) for another effect, that would be a start for some discussion.

---

Does anything besides Cabal Therapy and Dread Return do this, excluding things you have to draw, like Parcher's mention of Greater Gargadon? I've been leaning on Cabal Therapy to do it in my list, but I can see the potential for 1-2 blank Dread Returns, just to load up on Tokens and Trolls.

Therapy's been my best bet for this, and if I could just run about six or seven Therapies I wouldn't need anything else.

Yeah the only problem with gargadon is that it needs to be in your opening 7 or you need to rip like a champion turn 1. Dread return is the best card right now for that role alongside cabal therapy. But I would never cut dread return from my list completely because when you DR a cephalid sage you generally win that turn. The only sack outlets ichorid has in both versions apart from DR and therapy is ichorid itself sacking at the end of your turn or having your creatures die to a pernicious deed or some removal your opponent plays which they would never used unless they had a way to deal with the lot of zombies you net thereafter. But DR is just amazing. You want to win ASAP with this deck if you can and DR allows that by getting you a cephalid sage or FKZ.

If you really don't like dread return clogging up space in your deck I suggest you simply run 1 DR and 1 target for it like eternal witness, cephalid sage/sphinx, or FKZ. Then you can run your 4/4 breakthrough/careful study or 4/3 or 3/4 or however much space you have. But I don't really see the point of running 4 bloodghast and 4 ichorid without having DRs since you're able to utilize their recursion all the more thanks to their recurring each turn especially bloodghast since it doesn't sack itself and doesn't block and can only swing the turn it comes into play if the opponent is at 10 or less life at which point you're probably winning anyway.

Without having done any testing, it seems like a zero DR list would lose quite a bit of it's punch in games two and three. It's an interesting idea, but most decks with GGT win game one a high percentage of the time anyway. Facing hate, your graveyard will get wiped time and again over the course of a tourney, removing DR from the list decreases your options and (consequently) increases the decks linearity - making it easier to hate against. I'll be interested to hear what you come up with though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Does anything besides Cabal Therapy and Dread Return do this, excluding things you have to draw, like Parcher's mention of Greater Gargadon? I've been leaning on Cabal Therapy to do it in my list, but I can see the potential for 1-2 blank Dread Returns, just to load up on Tokens and Trolls.

Therapy's been my best bet for this, and if I could just run about six or seven Therapies I wouldn't need anything else.

---

I wish I could run six or seven Therapies lol.

Either way, we needed a card with flashback and "sacrifice a creature" in its flashback cost. I did a full search of all 60-something flashback cards, and indeed Dread Return and Cabal Therapy are the only cards that meet such requirements. I will keep looking for stuff that we can use right out of the graveyard, but I'm doubtful I'll be able to find something as powerful as what we already have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

If you really don't like dread return clogging up space in your deck I suggest you simply run 1 DR and 1 target for it like eternal witness, cephalid sage/sphinx, or FKZ. Then you can run your 4/4 breakthrough/careful study or 4/3 or 3/4 or however much space you have. But I don't really see the point of running 4 bloodghast and 4 ichorid without having DRs since you're able to utilize their recursion all the more thanks to their recurring each turn especially bloodghast since it doesn't sack itself and doesn't block and can only swing the turn it comes into play if the opponent is at 10 or less life at which point you're probably winning anyway.

---

The problem tho' is Dread Return into Flame Kin Zealot or Cephalid Illusionist only gives you the "Illusion" of Time Walk, short of the opponent TDing a board sweeper or graveyard sweeper, judicious use of Cabal Therapy while sacrificing Narcomoeba's is generally sufficient to CYA. I've been running 1 to 2 Dread Returns and 0 non-Golgari Gravetroll targets since the deck was invented, and it's never really been a hindrance IMO.

i was wondering why noone is including entomb? is it just too slow to be viable, since it can really help by finding, well, anything

After more testing, I have to admit, I prefer having Cabal Therapy 5-6 (Dread Return) as well, even if I don't necessarily have targets in the main. The idea of playing without DR is certainly novel, and I appreciate Taco's thought (as it made me think and test even more), and it showed me that playing DR-less is quite possible (which I wouldn't have even have considered previously). I appreciate the consistency, and in some matches, I even prefer that setup. The limitations of being pigeon-holed into a particular style of dredging does have problems. In most decks, I wouldn't be concerned so much about corner cases, but like most combo decks (especially those that face at least 4-slots worth of sb-hate), we do need to be concerned with those cornercases. Too often, I am glad to have the DR just to abuse Bridge when I am sure I have it there to abuse.

Alongside testing, I have to agree that arguments which point out faults of linearity created through the removal of DR are true. Consistency comes not just at the price of explosiveness, but frankly, also at the cost of too narrow a path to victory.

I didn't arrive at anything particularly too different.

// Lands -- 14
4 [OV] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

//Dredgers -- 13
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3/4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
2/1 [RAV] Darkblast

//GY-Goodies -- 18
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
2 [TSP] Dread Return

//Draw &/or Discard -- 15
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [OD] Careful Study


// Sideboard -- 15
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor -- Leyline is rare, and frankly, it costs so much that, I try to bounce it (among many CoV targets) and win before replaying Leyline would matter.
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus -- necessary catchall
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths

Points worth consideration:

• Darkblast has been quite good, I think it deserves at least 1 slot main, and even more including the side. Despite the card's lack of synergy with Bridge (and only dredging 3), it is makes the deck quite versatile. I don't see the point of siding in Firestorm in a deck with 15-18 discard outlets and a serious need for dredgers (usually hovering between 10 and 13). Darkblast is powerful sideboard material. One of our issues with creature based decks is getting the ball rolling after they find a way to remove Bridge, and having more dredgers, in addition to the control/tempo offered by Darkblast, makes this an easier choice in my eyes. It isn't like I'll be removing PImp or Tribe against aggro while siding, so the need for more discard outlets (a la Firestorm) doesn't seem as necessary as the raw removal potential and additional dredging power provided by Darkblast.
• I don't have any of the traditional DR-targets in the main. GGT is almost always a game-winning DR-target on G1, and I still want to hang on to maximum consistency in game 1. I had FZK/Sphinx in the main, but I'd rather have the breakthroughs/dredger on game 1. The games I lose one game 1 are usually because I had to mull to oblivion, not because I didn't have these speed-demons. I also don't always want to side in FZK-Sphinx, unless I'm playing against opposing combo decks, etc, which has led to me to believe these quite sideboardable and not necessary in the main. I choose to side these in when they are necessary, and I prefer to keep the most consistent game 1 winning streak I can.
• For those who haven't tried Iona, please do. The card has a very unique effect. It ranges from the best case scenario of completely locking an opponent out of the game to protecting itself and preventing the most feared spells. I side Iona in as much as I do Flame-kin.
• I'm completely sold on Ancient Grudges. They are my most sideboarded card. Useful in hand and GY, they give you versatile positions. I even survived 4 back to back Relics tonight, in part because of how excellent this card was. When you open with it, it gives you 2-shots to hit your opponent's hate (making permission less potent), and when you want, you can discard 2 to pimp/tribe at a time (regarding the 1st ability of Relic), often dredging straight into the grudge. They use it or lose it, and then you get to keep going on your game. I'm not going to play the LED version again just because Grudge is so excellent. Ancient Grudge is slow-roller cocaine.

@ junor

I've tested Entomb several times, and frankly, it just doesn't do enough.

City->Entomb->GGT is not hot. PImp/Tribe, discard to 7, Therapy, or Study/Break+Dredger substitute just as well. Entomb usually just takes up space and makes for slightly worse dredges. This deck sets up for the turn 2 bomb/combo/kill, like most aggro-combo decks, and Entomb isn't versatile enough in that process.

It does allow you to play with fewer dredgers, but not by 4x (assuming you are going 4x Entomb), as you can't guarantee chain into dredgers, which isn't acceptable.

It does offer some versatility, like:

Opponent: Crypt
Me: Land
Opponent: whatever
Me: Land->Entomb->Grudge->...

Even when you couple Entomb with cards like Street Wraith (which can take advantage of t1 GGT's in the GY) or LED (for D-Anal..) you just don't gain much. Dredge has to be one of the tighter decklists (particularly for a combo deck), imho, and there isn't enough wiggle room to excuse non-essentials like Entomb.





peace,
4eak

...what about Bloodghast now???

Is he worth some slots, or not?


YawG

@ 4eak: You basically got there my list I've been playing for 2 months now. The only differences are that I run just 11 Dredgers and +1 Land, +1 Tribe.
However this is not tested very well yet and your configuration might be better just as well. I like this approach very much and it's good to hear that Ancient Grudge has been fine for other people in testing as I' ve been playing Needle in LED dredge for years now and definitely like it's ability to just say no to relic and so on. However Grudge is definitely more synergistic, more flexible and doesn't have to be in your opening hand. I guess it's just better in LED-less dredge as it hits stupid stuff like Dreadnoughts and Jittes as well.

Still, how are you sideboarding? Basically in LED Ichorid it was easy as one could always take out LED + Deep Analysis + X for some sideboard cards.
Here I board out some breakthroughs quite often followed by random Ichorids and Thugs. I actually don't even want that many cards to board in for any matchup as this decks maindeck configuration is already quite well equipped to face graveyard hate.

I like Iona in the board as well and I take her in for difficult matchups where I feel that my opponent doesn't have much relevant hate, such as Ad Nauseam Tendrils, Enchantress, Burn (instead of Ancestor's Chosen), Solidarity... Basically randomness and combo.

2 Iona Shield of Emeria (2 are needed to keep this plan consistant)
1 Dread Return (for the sake of consistency 3 are needed to garuantee a quick Iona)
4 Ancient Grudge (awesome I guess)
2 Ray of Revelation (Enchantment stuff occurs and I like having those arround for people who board some Engineered Plague or Runed Halo. It is just versatile and solves other problems that can't be solved by Ancient Grudge. It has the same power, just other tasks.

For the rest of my board I am not sure. Some number of Firestorms, Chain of Vapor, Thoughtseize, Darkblasts, or maybe even one of the new traps might be cool.

PS: Ichorid > Bloodghast

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

...what about Bloodghast now???

Is he worth some slots, or not?


YawG

---

For Bloodghast to work, you kinda have to build around it. There was a whole discussion about the card in the last few pages. People have had all sorts of testing results with it, but is it actually better than Ichorid? Until decidedly proven so, no.

Also, like Muradin, I'd like to get some more proper SB discussion going. I often do the same thing by taking out Breakthroughs, Thugs, Ichorids, but it's rough when you want to bring in 4+ cards. If we could some up with some solid guidelines for boarding, I think it'd help us all out in the long run. Granted everyone's lists and boards may be meta dependent, we can all discuss that as well.