if your meta is heavy merfolk/goblins, the right call is to play zoo, not counterbalance. just my opinion.
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if your meta is heavy merfolk/goblins, the right call is to play zoo, not counterbalance. just my opinion.
Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla
So you're saying the 4 mana finisher is better than a 3 mana sweeper against a deck that taps down mana or Wastes it away? On top of that, a 10/10 Mean Ass Hydra isn't going to stop them from just swinging into you and killing you anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Firespout may not take out Goyf or Thoctar in the case of Zoo, but you have STP. And resetting Goblins is awesome. Especially if you can counter Ringleader.
I run Firespout maindeck. I beat a Elf player who played Summoner's Pact with only two Forests in play and then i Firespout his board and he lost during his upkeep. It is also good against Goblins too, and Zoo. I run Shackles, Firespout, and STP maindeck so creatures usually aren't that big a problem for me anyway. Firespout is still good, and i would run it in an unknown meta anyday.
I can't really say which is harder to resolve against Goblins, 2R or 2GG.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
I think we can agree that Progenitus is better against Zoo, while Firespout is better against tribal, though as sauce pointed out, if you're playing in a meta full of tribal, CBTop might not be the right call anyway.
Against Zoo, I'd think that Firespout isn't that bad. Takes out everything but Goyf and Thoctar. And they don't have a real draw engine. And as previously mentioned, STP picks up the rest.
Firespout helps the board position, which can lead to victories.
NOPro gives you a guy that wins in 3 turns (turn you NO him, swing 10, swing again). But it doesn't help your board position. Unless they only have 1 creature. Then you're winning anyways.
I agree with sauce that if you're playing in a heavy aggro environment, CBTop isn't the deck of choice. But Firespout makes it more viable as you now have a more fair chance against aggro and a strong chance against combo.
We tested over 20 matches pre and 20 post SB running Hatfield Zoo against Jap Supreme Blue and the conclusions are as follows:
1) The match is definitely in favor of Supreme Blue
2) Firespout + RWM = STONE KOLD NUTZ
3) If SB player was able to live through to mid-game and assemble CBTOP by then there was very little chance he would lose
4) Random Pyroblasts/PtEs aimed at RWMs hurt
5) Shushers did not hurt as much as Grips did, but by that time SB player would usually have 2nd copy of Top/Balance
If anyone has different results *please* let me know! We might as well be wrong in our approach to this matchup.
I have exactly the same results. RWM is gamewinning here.
I am prob running Supreme Blue in next tournament But since there is high amount of combo mainly and even some aggroloams in my meta i wanted to add one or two copies of Vendillion Clique. What's the best way? I think the first to come out are:
-one or two copies of RWM
-one copy of ponder
-one copy of trygon
-one copy of firespout, although I think it's the best card in the deck.
Help me guyz!
I'm not sure what your build is, but if you're looking to include Vendilion Clique, the logical thing to take out is Trygon Predator. In a meta with alot of combo and Aggro Loam you've made a good choice by playing CounterTop. However against Aggro Loam you have a few things to keep in mind: Chalice@1 and recurring Wasteland. Chalice@1 is no problem for Trygon Predator, while Vendilion Clique is not as good here. Against recurring Wasteland however, Vendilion Clique can remove Life from the Loam at the end of your opponents drawstep from his hand. If you run basics though, this may not be such a big problem. Depending on your build you may want to run both; Firespout is perhaps your weakest card in these match-ups, although he does deal with Aggro Loam's Dark Confidant and with any combo utilizing either Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below. Besides, there are plenty of other decks where it's very useful. So, depending on the rest of the build and the rest of the meta, -1 RWM and -1 Ponder may be your best choice. But I have to underline: usually you just switch them for your Trygon Predators.
I would go -2 Trygon +2 Clique.
-1 RWM -1 Ponder +2 Clique overloads your 3cc and you don't want that especially against Combo and Loam.
Also, per my understanding you face Chalice only g2, 3 and you will want to side in 2+ Grips (or even Explosives? depends on SB strategy) against Loam anyhow so that should not be a problem.
Keep in mind that the best CBTop against Loam is the one with 10/10 'Zaschita ot fsivo' creature.
Well, it doesn't cut into your cmc2 count, and the one Ponder isn't that big a deal. Actually, against Aggro Loam you want cmc3 over cmc1 for your Counterbalance (Maelstrom Pulse, Seismic Assault, Countryside Crusher, Terravore).Quote:
Originally Posted by o13g
There are Aggro Loam builds that run Chalice in the sideboard, but most run them maindeck. I can imagine Aggro Loam lists in a combo heavy meta would certainly run Chalice maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by o13g
I disagree. In fact, I don't like the NOPRO combo; it takes up slots, it's slow, and if you happen to run into a counter you have some heavy disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by o13g
In the end; I'd say either switch them for Trygon Predators, or -1 RWM -1 Ponder. If you also have some fast Aggro in your meta, or Burn decks, you want to keep your RWM.
Regarding the NOPRO I mentioned its superiority specifically against Loam builds. The drawbacks against other decks are evident. I would agree with your other comments though as our local meta has very little combo so our Loam players never run Chalices MD. On a sidenote I would never run Loam in a combo-infested metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Have a look at my list:Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
4 M. Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tarmogoyf
3 V. Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Threads of Disloyalty
--- Sideboard ---
4 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Firespout
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Open Slots (Probably RWM)
I've seen your list and there are a couple of things i dislike:
I don't want to play spell snare and counterbalance, spell snare becomes unnecessary most of the time when you have cb, that's different with daze because it's very necessary when you play cb on turn 2 with protection.
I don't like to play daze and shackles: that means you'll get to use shackles at least on turn 5 and that's pretty bad. Why not to play firespout? One sided wrath effect is worth to be played.
I find threats to be worst than RWM in aggro matchup, altough it's better in the aggrocontrol mu. But when facing combo, RWM races while threads not.
Playing three vendilion's it's too much for a legendary creature. it can be returned to lib by bs, pitched by fow but I still think it's too much copies for a legend permanent.
With only 11 2cmc cards for CB in gamegeeks build, Spell Snare actually becomes quite useful, especially on the draw where it can help win counterwars over something like t2 CB. I do agree with you on Rhox War Monk vs Threads MD however; the Monk is an absolute house against Zoo and most aggro decks in general. I also would agree with you that 3 Vendilion Cliques is a bit much for a legendary creature in most CounterTop lists; 2 seems to be a good number in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
@o13g Hatfield Zoo vs Supreme Blue results: That's what I've found when playing against Zoo with any build of CounterTop approximating Supreme Blue (i.e. having RWM and Firespout available); Zoo needs to win quickly against Supreme Blue or get locked out of the game completely by CB/Top. Firespout helps out against those quick Zoo starts while War Monk builds up your life back to a manageable level to avoid being burned out of the game by Fireblasts or Price of Progress.
I posted a recent tournament report with a Probasco style CB list if anyone is interested.
Did you liked sowers? Or they were "too vulnerable"?I like control magic effects but sower seems very bad agains many aggros.And why not 4StP since it seems the reason to run white in your deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gekoratel
I mainly included it because I liked having a couple 4cc spells in my deck for Counterbalance, the Sowers were fine on the day against GB Midrange and the mirror that I faced but in a more competitive meta filled with Zoo & Goblins I'm not sure if they would make the cut, the Swords were strong throughout the day. I'd be interesting in running Elspeth but WW is too hard on the manabase.
I'm running 2 Elspeth in my Supreme Blue SB to face control or aggro-control MUs.It is just amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gekoratel
Elspeths imrpove a lot of bad match ups. The list i am currently testing;
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Firespout
2 Elspeth
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic'Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Many answers, good counter package and stable mana base.