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Ok, I agrree if you guys. Run Sylvan make a difference but the cc is 2. Many times I did beat and play smooth with just a single forest with a hand like this: 2 invigorate, boggle, elite, nettle. The differece is happen IMO when we can run ESG thinking about play Sylvan next with no delay, or will we have problems. Is terrible take a mull when the luck is against us when appear a single forest, silhana, inv., zerk and two Sylvans :(
Sylvan is nice, but ESG must to appear to improve our combo :D
By the way, is Scryb Ranger slight better than Rushwood Legate? I prefer run Scryb in SB
Weird might not be the word, but it just seems off to run 3 of a 2cc CA engine that is not a beater and throw in fetchlands just to accommodate it. It could be the right thing to do, but it's just a very different approach than what I am used too. I can see it can add consistency (how much though as a 3 of?) and the tempo you lose from playing it you can possibly get back by helping you draw the nuts and can give you more gas the NEXT turn. And back to the fetchlands, is this card worth opening yourself up to stifle? I admit I just don't get it lol, and maybe I will do some playtesting later to wrap my head around it. It's got me thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
The point is Sylvan turn 1 with esg and fetches to makes sure crap stays off of the top of the library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Most decks honestly play stifle to combo with themselves in some way (Dreadstill etc). I know, because I used to play merfolk and dropped stifle long ago as a control aspect. It is sometimes a tempo loss for those decks. I'm not worried about my land being stifled as that will probably happen 1 out of 10 games against blue decks. We're a combo deck. Fetches thin our library and sylvan fixes our draws as well as getting more gas each turn. When you're playing against control decks or disruptive decks that is VERY relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
You don't know how many times discard destroyed my hand and I just refilled it with sylvan when I went for the kill.
Ok, now I got your point. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
I don't think we should run 4-of Sylvan Library. Even Zoo run only 2-of it... So far, 3 is ok, I didn't draw 2 at the same hand yet, but that would be pretty bad, I agree.
On the fetchlands, I'm reaching the conclusion that they are not needed, but I will still test them a little. I didn't even have the chance to use them to shuffle my Library because of bad draws yet... Actually, our library is so full of the same kind of solutions that, whenever I activate Library, it's not uncommon to find the piece I needed.
The consistancy it adds is something close to what I said about red splash being better than monogreen due to Assault Strobe: We depend too much on the "final blow", the moment we are able to attack with all our power, and sometimes we just don't find enough power and stall. We lose the game due to the lack of 2-3 points of damage, and get controlled. Library digs that damage before it's too late for us; before the game is controled by them. Even played at turn 3, as in these situations where you need the last forest to play the recently drawn Berserk.
It's not uncommon for us to be laying around with 20 life while trying to figure out a way to deal a few more points of damage to finish the game.
Some testings shows that we are rarelly able to finish opponent at turn 3 (10% +/-), we can finish them at turn 4 something like 40% of the games, and 30% at turn 5. A library @T2 can dig you to 5th draw within the next turn. And if you got enough life, it can dig you to the 8th draw within T4.
Well, It may not be the bomb we always needed, but at least is worth a try, I assure.
Oh, and btw, it helps a lot against Chalice @1 ^^
edit: God, that's a bigger answer than I thought... I should stop being so extensive xD
Ha ha well this is a strong defense. I am worried about Library whiffing when it could have been a pump spell to end it, but that is unlikely. Also I don't particularly like this card against Zoo, because the races can be really tight. I could see it as a boon against a variety of other decks however. Ok let's see how it turns out. My money is still on the red splash though :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
Even better, then: Test it at the red splash and let us know ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
I'm glad to see this forum active and people testing a variety of versions. How much pump is everyone running?
@Sylvan
Yes it is fine as a 3 of. I'd never go to 4 and I don't see the reason of going to 2 as I'd like to see it early if I can.
@Fetchlands
It is true that they shuffle your library for the turn after you need it, but I find the thinning of the deck worth the few points of damage, so I can library only into business spells.
Another option is mirri's guile. That lets us cheat and look before we draw so if it is all crap then we can simply shuffle it away and start fresh (all before the draw). Granted it doesn't provide the raw CA.
Note**
I'm still testing infect pump and like it a lot. I can usually win by turn 3 (about 45-55%), but I've been forced up to 3-4 VoV due to removal. Anyone had more testing against zoo? I've tested against zoo, cb, doomsday, first strike white weenie, NO elves, lands, dreadstill, etc. I've had much success against all of those decks except obviously cb. Considering all of our spells are 1-2 a cb lock is almost unwinnable.
Lol maybe when I get some more free time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
@Tru: If you go into black, you can get more creatures and discard. Without black, don't you feel vulnerable with only VoV to protect your dudes?
I do, but I find the merits of black to not be worth it. The only card I'd want to run is the flier and he is just as vulnerable as the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
And discard slows me down too much for my liking.
Even so, I have a hard time getting behind an infect build without some form of protection besides VOV. Here is a crazy idea...blue splash!!! Heh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
I took my infect list to a local tourney and went 3-1. MVPS were sylvan and vines. 4 Vines mainboard is a must I feel now for an infect list. Not so much for the traditional. My 1 loss was to painter/grindstone.
Congrats :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
I've been testing Sylvan Library maindeck, as 3-of and now as 2-of. My conclusion is that it's rarely a dead card, its draw fix is ok, its draw for 4life is amazing for us, specially if dropped second turn, to try a thrid turn kill, or to clean the top with -8life so that you go off 4th turn.
The main problem is that, sometimes, not often really, you draw the second Sylvan, and the objective of having card advantage is null, unless you spend 8 life.
So what I'm doing is reducing the count to 2-of, and using the slot for pumps instead. Also, that reduces the small chance there is to draw an Sylvan when all you needed for the win was a pump (this is not always bad, since sometimes it will end up fetching the pump). I think runnig 2-of is great, the benefits of a well-timed Sylvan can bring you the match, while 3-of is kind of risky, for the fact that it could lose the match instead.
I don't know... Sylvan against zoo is terrible... Qsali can disrupt it and the stomp can crush us. Dmg togheter when u try kill faster too drawing another with Sylvan trigg in draw phase
I see your point. It's true, the draw for 4life ability isn't to be abuse dagainst Zoo. But there's also the fact that Berserk usually means Kill against Zoo, and Sylvan may help you find it before it's too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
hey guys. i have to say that this is a really cool thread!
here is my current list:
7 x Forest
3 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
3 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 x Slippery Bogle
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Kavu Predator
4 x Silhana Ledgewalker
4 x Rancor
4 x Assault Strobe
4 x Might of Old Krosa
4 x Invigorate
4 x Berserk
1 x Vines of Vastwood
2 x Sylvan Library
SB:
2 x Krosan Grip
2 x Gleeful Sabotage
2 x Arc Trail
2 x Ravenous Trap
3 x Tormod's Crypt
4 x Autumn's Veil
first i got to say that imho the combo nature of this deck is what is making it really dangerous. the simple beatdown plan is just way outdated and predictable most of the time. my next thoughts rely on this assumption.
imho the red splash with 4 assault strobes is really the way to go atm. with 20 evasion (counting trample as evasion, too) effects/critters, it's just like having the hardly needed berserks no. 5,6,7 and 8. the only real disadvantage compared to berserk is that it does not stack with itself. sorcery speed is just fine (think about MoOK). my first tests with this card were awsome.
furthermore i think that's there is no red creature really fitting in this deck. dropping taiga first turn for kird ape has been discussed already and kiln fiend does not have any evasion or troll shroud and is not undercosted by itself (like nettle). it's simply a card that should be used with burn and not with berserk.
the sideboard: arc trail is completely new here. maybe it can be used against tribal trading 1 for 2. it even can get the first lord and a toughness 1 critter like cursecatcher or lackey, to name two really dangerous examples. it slows the opponent down and clears the board a bit, leaving more room to push through a few more points of damage to get the opponent into zerk range. but i have not tested it yet.
to come to an end i want to say that i hardly prefer Autumn's Veil over shusher. it's faster and we want to be fast. it's more unpredictable for the opponent. it can not be sworded etc.. if you want to take a real advantage of using the shusher, you need much more mana than this deck can provide. veil is nearly as good for us as chant is for storm combo.
so far ... and greetings from germany and sorry for m english, i hope it is not that bad :)
edit: I also got to say that the library kicks ass so far. nice work ;)
I don't know if Assault Strobe is the answer, but it sure sounds like a great idea to try out
Your English is great, only minor thing I noticed was that the word "hardly" has a strange usage where it actually means "barely" rather than "greatly"Quote:
i hope it is not that bad
I like your take on the deck, although I'm aware that the chance of drawing 2 of the same, when running 4-of it, after 10 draws (approx. 3rd turn) is something around 13%, while if you were running 3-of, that would be like 6%. I wonder if you ever drawn 2x strobe and had problems due to that. I'm aware strobe doesn't kill your creature, so that you can use it later, but your backup pumps will have to be cast only once.
Also, about Shusher, consider that we use him against Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top, both of which Autumn's Veil doesn't work, though you can counter these strategy with k-grips + gleeful.