[Deck] Aggro Loam

I think that with the loss of MM, there will obviously be more 1cc spells in the metagame, of major note TES and High Tide. I think that the 1cc spells that can be played in Aggro Loam aren't very good, which is why I'm thinking that Chalice might be a pretty solid thing to bring back now. Otherwise, I feel like combo is going to be something like a 30% matchup at best. We used to be able to count on all the MM decks keeping combo down in the loser bracket, so we can beat up on blue. Might not be that likely anymore.

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Originally Posted by TheShaun

I think that with the loss of MM, there will obviously be more 1cc spells in the metagame, of major note TES and High Tide. I think that the 1cc spells that can be played in Aggro Loam aren't very good, which is why I'm thinking that Chalice might be a pretty solid thing to bring back now. Otherwise, I feel like combo is going to be something like a 30% matchup at best. We used to be able to count on all the MM decks keeping combo down in the loser bracket, so we can beat up on blue. Might not be that likely anymore.

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Combo will be bad even with Chalice, and eschewing one-drops entirely is bad. I would recommend at least using Lightning Bolts.

This is not a deck you want to play if you are concerned with beating combo. You would have to completely rebuild the deck to do it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Chalice fell out of favor because combo declined in popularity. I'm pretty sure it was more because of the fact that the chances to land it turn 1 are very slim, and that after the first few turns it is generally a dead draw. It might steal the occasional game 1 against combo, but they'll just bring in bounce/artifact hate and sculpt a hand to go off with. Without any additional hand disruption, you're not likely to get there in time.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Chalice fell out of favor because combo declined in popularity. I'm pretty sure it was more because of the fact that the chances to land it turn 1 are very slim, and that after the first few turns it is generally a dead draw. It might steal the occasional game 1 against combo, but they'll just bring in bounce/artifact hate and sculpt a hand to go off with. Without any additional hand disruption, you're not likely to get there in time.

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Correct. Chalice turn one is good against most of the format, but after that it isn't, and it prevents you from running solid cards like Bolt. I would rather have a real curve than need Mox Diamond to not be a turn behind the rest of the format.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Combo will be bad even with Chalice, and eschewing one-drops entirely is bad. I would recommend at least using Lightning Bolts.

This is not a deck you want to play if you are concerned with beating combo. You would have to completely rebuild the deck to do it.

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I'm using the build with Punishing Fire, and Bolt doesn't really seem necessary. I am currently not running any 1-drops, and can't really think of any that I'd like to have maindeck. The reason I'm considering bringing back Chalice isn't so much to deal with combo, more to deal with the probably massive increase in 1cc spells in the format. I agree that beyond turn 1 it isn't going to severely cripple any decks, but it should still be pretty good. Stops the most popular removal spells other than Dismember, splashes for combo decks other than Hive Mind, and can help slow Zoo down enough to take the game over.

Again, I'm not sure that it'll be the answer. But my thinking is that the format will be speeding up a bit, and this deck is already quite dominant late-game against almost anything. If the game lasts 5+ turns, Loam should be in pretty good shape against anything but Counterbalance, which will probably rear it's stupid head again. I think it will be a thorn in the side of control decks, shutting down StP, Brainstorm, and SDT. Aggro decks typically overload on 1-drops, so even though we aren't stopping their turn 1 play, we can possibly strand 1-3 dudes in their hand, unless of course their 1-drop is Aether Vial.

I'm not trying to tune the deck to beat combo, as I understand that will be a poor matchup regardless. I'm trying to figure out how this deck can get a jump on the metagame shift, as there will be an inevitable change. My previous post definitely made it seem like I was trying to make a change to improve combo, but that wasn't really the intention. This deck has been very strong IMO with Misstep in the format, but won't remain so without any changes.

Chalice wasn't particularly good in the format before MMS was printed. Actually, the deck itself wasn't particularly good, since there were a lot of matchups were it just okay.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Chalice wasn't particularly good in the format before MMS was printed. Actually, the deck itself wasn't particularly good, since there were a lot of matchups were it just okay.

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Maybe the Blue version is worth looking into again? Intuition is pretty nuts, and it seems like there could be some good tricks with Brainstorm/Loam. I just don't know if you could have the density of blue cards required for Force, and this really doesn't seem like the type of deck to keep mana open for counters.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Maybe the Blue version is worth looking into again? Intuition is pretty nuts, and it seems like there could be some good tricks with Brainstorm/Loam. I just don't know if you could have the density of blue cards required for Force, and this really doesn't seem like the type of deck to keep mana open for counters.

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The issue with Intuition is that the absolute best use for it in this deck is getting some number of Loams and some number of cycling lands. It enables you to assemble a slow, mana-intensive, late-game draw engine that is in many ways just worse than Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The rest of the time, Intuition will be an expensive tutor for three copies of one card or some pile that will allow you to spend a lot of mana and time to eventually get all three cards back while your opponent is busily killing you. Also, adding Intuition and the support cards to use Intuition effectively tends to kill the curve.

Brainstorm is so-so in this deck. It draws cards and then your fetches shuffle, sure, but your card quality is lacking and one-shot draw effects are generally not that good here. The fact that your curve is high and you're built for attrition and a strong midgame negate a lot of Brainstorm's usefulness relative to things like Ponder or Preordain, and those cards aren't particularly useful either. I guess you could run Jace since Brainstorming every turn while dredging seems sexy, but this is probably one of the worst TMS decks ever, so...

Aggro Loam is really a metagame deck, and the metagame it was good in just got banned out of existence. I would like someone to prove me wrong since this is a pet deck of mine, but right now I would rather run Big Zoo than Aggro Loam.

Actually I thought it was most handy in finding Seismic Assault early and consistently, but Loam and Cyclers are also good targets. Brainstorm I'm not really sold on, but keep in mind that we have the Dredge mechanic in addition to fetches to either get rid of dead cards. Brainstorm can also put unneeded lands on top to grow Crusher more reliably, or avoid a dead draw if Crusher reveals something like a Mox or anything redundant.

I just think it's worth some testing. In the interest of spurring more discussion, here's a quick list I threw together in Cockatrice:



4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Seismic Assault
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Vendilion Clique


I basically never play blue, so my choices of spells/numbers could be totally off. Skaab Ruinator might also be worth testing in some quantity, since this list has no way to recur dredged guys, I just think the cmc 3 spot is overloaded as is with Clique/Assault/Intuition, and I'm guessing Clique is the better creature. Delver/Abberation seems cute but not worth any slots.

I guess you could also go for a super-control UBG version with Liliana 2, but I'd hate to lose Crusher's tutor-on-a-stick power.

You can't run Force of Will with only 12 blue cards ^^

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Originally Posted by Anen

You can't run Force of Will with only 12 blue cards ^^

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This. Also, that list falls prey to the other problem with Aggro Loam, which is being too slow to get going. That's a huge part of the reason why Aggro Loam was suddenly a good deck in the Misstep metagame.

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Originally Posted by Anen

You can't run Force of Will with only 12 blue cards ^^

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Yeah I didn't really think so, but I threw Force in first out of Blue-ignorance, and then built up the rest of the deck and didn't bother to go back and change it. I guess either Daze or Spell Pierce is more appropriate, or some combination of other things with all counters going to the SB?

I don't really know what we could do about the speed thing. I guess in Jund you could just run lots of discard like The Rock, which isn't a particularly fast deck either, but seemed to be doing pretty well pre-MM. Either that or run more sweepers. DD is usually pretty nuts against Zoo, but I think it benefited from having MM around because it meant less Dazes and Pierces to play around.

I'd actually run sweepers, since they'll be helping out most of your problems (and will be better since you can play them on T2 with Mox).

You can't rely on discard like Rock, since you don't have 10 slots. You have to assume combo is just going to get you, and deal with it. Against TES, if you run REB and Extirpate, you should be in decent shape (as well as running Assault and Fires, it makes it harder for them to Nauseum profitably).

I think your board should basically now include Firespouts, REB's, and some Perishes. Probably 3-4 Spouts so you can stabilize before setting up Assault engine. Fires is still good, but it'll be slow going. Bolts and Lavamancers also get better. You could board/maindeck a few of those.

Naya Loam might not be a bad idea, due to the fact you can run 7 Swords. Confidant is great, don't get me wrong, but give it some thought. Terravore is also super good.

-Matt

If you really want a shot against combo you probably have to play Junk colors with Raven's Crime, Liliana of the Vale and a maindeck hate bear or two.

Something like...

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Nantuko Monastery
3 Barren Moor
3 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

4 Dark Confidant
4 SFM
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Wetness
1 Batterskull
1 Sword or Jitte

3 Raven's Crime
4 Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Liliana of the Vale

SB:
2 Path to Exile
1 Teeg
1 Canonist
4 Duress
3 Perish
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip

Something like that. My initial gut tells me that this will be a lot worse than Jund against the weenie decks Aggro Loam is usually good against, but testing might prove otherwise. Merfolk and Zoo both bow to batterskull, but battkerskull isn't as good as assault. Also, dredging up equipment is going to awkward, hopefully witness helps.


RE: Blue.
Loam is a card that can sometimes be used in blue decks because Loam + Wasteland wrecks the control mirror and Loam + Jace is insane. You can't really play blue in Loam decks though, unless its a splash purely for intuition and/or Tolaria West. Blue cards are not very good with a dedicated Loam strategy.

How about GSZ in Loam?

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Originally Posted by CorpT

How about GSZ in Loam?

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In a naya build with a tool box, maybe... Though, in that case you might as well just play Maverick or something along those lines. In a jund build you're only gonna be able to get Goyf and/or Terravore, and that's not worth the 2-3 slots for GSZ.

What do you guys think of Kessig Wolf Run as a 1-of?

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

What do you guys think of Kessig Wolf Run as a 1-of?

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Good idea. For those who don't run Terravore, or for those who would like to try running AL without, it could be very useful. Late game, make Crushers actually crush, Tarmogoyfs get through their evil twins, have Bob kill Goyf...

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

What do you guys think of Kessig Wolf Run as a 1-of?

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Isn't Skaarg just better? If you have tons of mana to sink into this late, it means you're not Loaming/cycling, and there aren't many situations where that's a good thing.

Besides the X variable in power, you can simply pay GR and tap Wolf Run just to give your Knight/Terravore trample (+0/+0), something Skarrg can't do. Could be relevant, but then again, you might not have space for either Wolf Run or Skarrg.