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Lead the Stampede
Sorcery
Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal any number of creature cards from among them and put the revealed cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
i wonder why no one even mentioned it as a possibility. Along with elvish spirit guides, it can make you keep going forever. Yeah it's con is that it requires an active glimpse, but it can keep your hand full of bussiness
Good ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
First things first: I was only bringing up the Nettle Sentinel up as an example of the use of GSZ. I know I don't need 3, but I do know that GSZ could get me the 2nd (or even 1st) for 1G. This doesn't seem useless to me. I'm unsure how big a bomb the card actually is, but I do know the card is useful on the second turn. It doesn't stop the Glimpse chain either (unless you're really unlucky you can always get a Visioinary for 2G and restart the chain). GSZ isn't a Glimpse, Pact, Sentinel, Heritage Druid or Visionary, but on the turn you combo it's a better card than Archdruid (unless you can give it haste). The GSZ is versatile, that's all I was pointing out.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
As for the message you're trying to get across: it seems a bit obvious to point out that you want to maximize creatures in your hand. I guess it's more what you do with the Pact in your hand. I feel I am not aggressive enough with that card because of the "YOU LOSE" clause on it. More to the point: I'm afraid to Pact on the turn before I expect to go off.
I obviously agree with Nihil. 4 of anything gives you a 40% chance of opening with that card in your hand, and Elves doesn't exactly mulligan that well considering it doesn't play a lot of lands. Playing back-up Glimpses is great if you don't draw Glimpse or it gets Thoughtseized or countered. Cloudstone Curio, Weird Harvest, Genesis Wave - all these things are clearly not as good as Glimpse, but they're workable back-up plans against many decks in the format. Consider Goblins, which is very popular; that deck isn't loaded with removal, so you're actually able to Wave them out pretty easily. Against blue decks, Curio is really good as you get a banging draw engine with Visionary that helps you find Glimpse more easily, and for what its worth, you can assemble a Curio combo and win that way too; since people aren't as familiar with it, I've found that its pretty easy to set-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Its the same argument I have in Vintage. Can you play Dredge with 4 Bazaar and 0 Serum Powder? Sure, of course you can. But I'd still strongly suggest you play Serum Powder to make sure you find your deck's engine. This is more or less the same idea, here with Elves.
I have to agree with voltron00x here. Prior to the Survival banning, the deck was supercharged with tutors. Survival on it's own was an awesome secondary engine to Glimpse, enabling the deck to start off tutor chains and give haste to the lords.
With that aspect now missing, an additional 3 cards (minimum) would be required to get that element back into Combo Elves. Living Wish, while being good utility, has not been a great card for enabling the combo portion; merely finishing it off. To be perfectly honest, I have not tried Cloudstone Curio, Staff of Domination, Weird Harvest, nor Genesis Wave yet in this deck. If I were to test one out, it would be the Curio. It lends itself very nicely with several elves, and you could reconfigure the deck with 1 Wood Elves + all basics to take advantage of it. (As I've done with the old EPIC Combo Elves list, to enable Taiga/Anger) Since all the ETB Elves work nicely with Wirewood Symbiote, I would also push that number to 4.
Green Sun's Zenith is also interesting in here, and being a one-shot Survival makes me more inclined to test it out. Tutoring for a 2nd (or 3rd) Nettle Sentinel is nothing to shrug at.
All very good points. Finding the engine is certainly the most important part. Here is my reasoning for 4 glimpses being enough:
-As stated, you have a 40% chance of getting one in your opening hand
-The other 60% of the time we should not be viewing as bad, as you can in most decks. The reason for this is that elves sees waaay more cards per game than the average deck. I did the math out about a month or so ago (I don't remember what page it is on but it's a long post from me) and the probability of having a hand with no glimpse, no symbiote/visionary combo, AND no summoner's pact AND no Regal force AND on top of that now no living wish as well since I have a Regal Force in the board too) is insanely low. Therefore, we are going to be able to get a regal force or a symbiote/visionary combo in play if we don't have the glimpse, meaning that we will find the glimpse quickly (or just win).
-The Aggro backup plan is not a weak one, and here is why: Think about when you need it most...against control right? Decks like top that are hard to combo against have nothing on our Aggro backup plan, ESPECAILLY after you board in leyline. The only decks we really need to rely on this plan against we can completely out aggro. We shouldn't compare our aggro plan to, say, Goblins, since we don't need it against them.
-This illustrates one of this deck's biggest strength- it combos over most decks, and any deck it has trouble comboing over it can out-aggro, especially post board.
Also to note, I started putting the Elvish Champion back as a singleton in the maindeck. This helps out the aggro plan more than the combo plan, and allows you to alpha-strike vs a majority of the format using Summoner's Pact. If Living Wish is in the deck, it's also a great idea to put it there too.
Okay first thing is elves are not tier 1 in my opinion because spot removal really hurts this deck. Also in my meta where there are allot of UB Merfolk around it is really hard to play through there sideboard cards. When you say 15% of the games I will sit there and do nothing I have no clue what you mean. There are 4 glimpses, 4 Summer's pact, 3 Living wish, 1 Joraga, and 1 regal force all of which you can use to 'not sit 15% of the games and do nothing". I'm not trying to say that this deck doesn't have problems but not having enough glimpse of nature like cards is not a problem. I will be adding vexing shusher to my deck but the rest of the cards you suggested I really don't think so :)Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
My living wish build
Creatures:
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
4 lanowar elves
4 elvish visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Fyndhorn elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 wirewood symbiote
1 Regal Force
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcaller
Spells
3 living wish
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's pact
Lands
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant catacombs
10 forest
Sideboard
1 Elvish Archdruid (or Elvish Champion)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Vexing Shusher
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 Ezuri, renegade leader
1 Eternal Witness
I am not sure as to wether the Archdruid should become an Elvish Champion or not. Let me know what you guys think.
So I think the only difference between our builds maindeck is that I use archdruids and you use priests haha. As for sideboard, I have found that leylines are a lot better than shusher, what advantages do you see in shusher? I also have a terastodon to get rid of any pesky things on the board. Since the leylines also take care of top, krosan grip didn't seem necessary. This leaves room for 4 thorn of amethyst which helps us against combo a ton, and lord knows we need the help against storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I have also been playing elves for 10 years, and let me tell you, I know how to play the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
It is actually frustrating to lend the deck to a supposedly pro and seeing he can't figure out how to combo 2nd turn, or to do things I consider obvious, and I am sure that most people posting in this thread know perfectly well how to pull off the amazing techs this deck has, so that's exactly what I'm talking about, sure your list is great, I really think so it is a great list, but you can't just shout away that it is the MOST PERFECT list can find right now, ever, anywhere. Go make top8's a couple of them and then we'll talk, I have 2 top8 with my list from these last 2 month, and I only played 2 tournaments, and a friend of mine you ran the exact list placed 1st of out 61.
I am merely remarking your attitude. Help the community, don't just brag about being the best.
Spot removals, and UB merfolks really hurt us, but I tend to manage a way out about Merfolk, and it's also a big meta here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
The fall back plan just isn't good enough many times against Goblins, Zoo, or other aggro, because if we want to accomplish 7 mana for regal then we have to land elves, and that's when instead of Summoner's we draw Glimpse, with no elves in hand. Or when we keep all elves in hand and draw Summoner's instead of Glimpse, and then we waste one more turn against fast aggro which means death.
On the suggestions part, they were just that, suggestions, and I would only run Vexing Shusher out of all those cards, unless you also play Chord of Calling, which grants some super secret ninja techs. Although it will be replaced by Sunith too probably, in my list.
Again, I do like your guys lists, but the difference is that I have tested all possibilities, yours, mine, others, and you seem reluctant to test something different.
First of all, I apologize for being a complete douchehole in that post. I went back and read it and was like wow, I'm an asshole. I wasn't sober at the time haha. So my apologies to everyone, it won't happen again.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
I have tested all the possibilities as well, I just think that other glimpse substitutes take away from the synergy of the deck (see the above post of mine about why only 4 glimpses is ok). I will continue to test every build I see since I love this deck and want elves to be tier one. That's the main thing that keeps bringing my back to legacy, my mission to help us make elves a tier one deck.
So I will continue to test different builds, especially as new cards (like zenith) come out, and I apologize again for my drunken rant.
I have also tested Burning Wish as I guess many people here have, and while it sounds like a great idea on paper and it's super fun to have all those possibilities waiting for you in the sideboard, having to pay 2 more mana, and specially 1 red, to get a Glimpse sucks big time, so I ended up only playing 1 Wish, fetching for different killing options, but I finally took it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrab
Wish is so much fun, but not good enough... :)
Discard effects are a fantastic idea helping out against combo & control, but then you need Bayous (budget) to support them.
Fauna Shaman, looks just a little too slow (2mana, wait one turn), weak (creature - 2/2), dependent (needs another creature in hand to actually do anything). I think that sticking to Summoner's pact, the new Zenith, Chord of calling, or even Worldly tutor, any other non-creature searchers would be a better way to go :)
I have tested different versions but I find that running anything other than glimpse seems like a bad idea. There will be many times when that sub Glimpse of nature card will get in your way. I do want to know how you play around UB Merfolk though. My old sideboard was not that good so that might have been a reason as to why I found it to be so hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
Well I like shusher better because mulliganing into Leyline seems like a bad idea especially since combo elves doesn't run that many lands. Actually casting leyline seems really hard. The only drawback I see about shusher is that he is really bad against top, one reason I run Krosan grip. I also run Grip for Engineered plague, Umezava's Jitte, Sword of fire and Ice, and once in a while against affinity. Terastodon looks ineteresting and I think it would be a good replacement for elvish archdruid. As far as Amethyst goes elves combo can race spring tide and I just pray I don't play against SI or TES....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
2/2 Body of Fauna is great vs engineered plague and you can search an out against this like Replica.
I don't like pact because you can play it only in your comboturn that's are too slow in my opinion.
That's the only time I find I want to tutor anyway. Pact I think is absolutely the fastest tutor, it's free! you can view it as having whatever creature you want in your hand. It's like a wild card that helps you start the combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrab
I think that Lightning Bolt, Sword to plowshares, Path to exile, Galvanic blast, Gempalm incinerator, Pyroclasm are a lot more worrying, and a lot more seen than Engineered plague, at least in my metagame, and she dies to all of them. Trying new things is always great, but you should realize that almost everyone here plays 4x or 3x of Summoner's pact, really give it a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrab
k2thej: i was wondering what you pulled in your board for the terastadon? we run nearly identical decks except for i run a concordant crossroads instead of a 4th birchlore ranger. in the board i don't really understand the caller of the claw. i've been running a faerie macabre in its place since i always see a couple dredge decks at local tourneys. its also priddy good against nass' version of elves since usually they drop the vengvines in the grave the turn before they try to go off.
speaking of nass; did anyone else see the coverage of the last round at san jose? nothing like being up one game, at full combo, and having to pass the turn because you don't run a kill condition! XD
oh, and losing game three to islandwalk!
Well I can answer both your questions at once haha. The caller of the claw was what I took out for the terrastodon. The claw was in there for sweepers obviously but I decided it wasn't worth it. I was debating between woodfall primus and terrastodon but terrastodon won out in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyller83
In testing, I haven't found much use for eternal witness in the board, but that could likely become a lot more useful in real match ups with removal/sweepers. I generally try not to worry about removal since we have enough dudes that we can power through it. Sweepers are a concern though, but maybe caller would be more useful than witness, so I might end up swapping witness for caller but we will see when I test more.
I gotta say, after testing post board against top/other blue control decks, I could not be happier with the outcome. If you look at my most recent list with terrastodon, you swap wish, glimpse, and pact for everything in the board except thorn. It is awesome. Uncounterable B.A. aggro
For those of you guys who want to run 5 or 6 Glimpse of natures. Why not try running living wish and mirror entity in sideboard? Or is that too slow?
And what do you tutor with the wishes? Only Entity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I run Mirror Entity maindeck, and while it's won me so many games, by full aggro, helping to chump block with 4/4 or 5/5s one turn, and kill the next turn, it usually isn't good enough to kill the same turn I play it, because all the elves I control, except maybe 2, have summoning sickness. I could put Concordant back in the deck, but I don't think so, anyway it's usually only against Pyroclasm-effects or very fast aggro that I search for Mirror entity in the first game.
I don't understand how Living Wish could be Glimpse 5 and 6, although I really like Living maindeck, it's better than Zenith since we actually get to cast the creatures and draw from them.
Everyone running Living wish, what bullets do your carry in the sideboard (Gaea's craddle, Faerie Macabre-Yixlid jailer, Mirror entity, Harmonic sliver, Dauntless escort, Burrenton forge-tender, Regal force, Eternal witness, Gaddock teeg, Emrakul ? Others ?)