[Deck] The Rock

Just took down a small local tourney with this list:

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Plains
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
4 Kataki, War's Wage


Won 2-0 against:
1 merefolk
1 infect combo (lol)
1 show tell combo
2 Big Zoo with GSZ

Lost 1-2 against Show Tell combo

final game record 13-2

The only thing I would change is probably the sideboard:
-4 Kataki, war's wage
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+1 Boujoka Bog
+2 Thrun

I don't understand all the hate for Gerrard's Verdicts, Deeds and Vindicates, they were SUPERB all day.
Also, the 1 maindeck deed is essential against any prison or long control strategy.

I think it would be possible to run GSZ instead of top to increase threat density. However i think top has good synergy with the discard plan and with confidant.

Junk is a deck that is meant to have a decent match-up against all of the tier 1 decks in the first game, then take a significant advantage after sideboard. This is also a deck that requires skillful, interactive play to perform optimally.

First the list:

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Flexible Slots discard or removal like Gerrard's Verdict, Green Sun's Zenith, Duress, Maelstrom Pulse, Go for the Throat, Snuff Out, Death Mark etc
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
1 Plains
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas (Show/Tell meta) or Stirring Wildwood (control meta) or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (aggresive meta)

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate or Nihil Spellbomb
0-3 Duress (combo meta) or Thrun the last troll (control meta) or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale(if not main) or Karakas (if not main)


There are 2 stages of the game when playing Junk:
Stage 1: Punish marginal hands
Thoughtseize can cripple hands that rely on specific cards. Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, and Vindicate can Crush light mana hands or decks with a Greedy 3 color manabase. If you can do adequate damage with either of these strategies a single creature should be able to wrap the game up quickly.

Stage 2: Top deck war
If you were unable to win in stage 1, you will often end up in situations where you have discarded their entire hand and stabilized with a Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary. At this point the game becomes a contest of who can draw the key cards to finish the game off. This is why the deck packs Knight of the Reliquary, Dark Confidant and Sensei's Divining Top. All of these cards have huge value in a drawn out game. If your opponent is packing a lot of removal the best play is often to Clear their hand with discard before playing new threats at this stage. Watch for opportunities to destroy all of their land.

Matchups:
Zoo:
Zoo's major Weakness in stage 1 is their manabase. Their deck is very redundant so it is not likely that you can cripple them with discard. Turn 1 Thoughtseize targets should normally be Wild Nacatal or Path to Exile.
Your goal in this matchup is to clog them up with creatures and take as little damage early as possible. If you can aVoid taking much damage from their creatures it is unlikely they will be able to kill you with burn alone. Try to cast your Hymn to Tourach and Gerrard's Verdicts while they still have 3 or more cards in hand or when they have tapped out. Save Dark Confidant until after their hand is empty.
Sideboarding:
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Merefolk
This is probably your best matchup. In stage 1 you should be aiming to disable their Island s and AEther Vial s. Most of the creatures in their deck cost 2 blue mana and they run 8 colorless lands. Exploit that if possible. Turn 1 Thoughtseize on AEther Vial or MerrOw Rejery is often ideal.
Your goal is to make the game into an Attrition war. Your creatures are larger and your removal is better. You also have stronger topdeck abilities. Do not worry about taking early damage, unload all of your discard as quickly as possible and move to stage 2 if you can not land screw them early. Try to play around Wasteland if you are fortunate enough to get Mox Diamond by fetching basics.
After sideboarding Pernicious Deed makes the game near unwinnable.
Be prepared for Perish game 2 and 3 if they play fetchlands.
Sideboarding:
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Vindicate
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Goblins
This is the most volatile matchup. Whoever goes first is highly favored in game 1.
Your goal in game 1 is to keep them from getting enough mana to play ringleader and stabilizing with your creatures. You want to play Hymn to Tourach as early as you can hoping to hit lands. If they are playing a black splash (you can tell because they will have fetchlands) then be ready for Warren Weirding s.

Engineered Plague becomes your win condition in game 2. Be prepared for Perish if they play fetchlands.

Sideboarding if playing second:
-2 Flex slot
-1 Thoughtseize
-3 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboarding if playing first:
-2 Flex slot
-4 Vindicate
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Show and Tell or Doomsday
Stage 1 is very important as this matchup never goes to stage 2. If they combo and you have no answer you lose. If you have the answer, you win. Simple. Hands with Knight of the Reliquary, Karakas, Maze of Ith and heavy discard are obviously quite good here. Swords to Plowshares can help against Woodfall Primus and Blightsteel Colossus.
Sideboarding:
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-4 Vindicate
+3 Diabolic Edict
+3 Duress
if Doomsday also plays storm combo with Ill Gotten Gains, also sideboard:
-2 Sensie's Divining Top
-1 Dark Confidant
+3 Extirpate or Nihil Spellbomb

Storm:
Similar to Show and Tell combo, except you must rely on just your discard to save you. You are looking for hands with Mox Diamond and heavy discard follOwed up with a fast knight or goyf.
Game 2 and 3 Pernicious Deed can destroy their mos diamond s, lions eye diamond s or Goblin tokens from Empty the Warrens.
Sideboard:
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Duress
+1 Pernicious Deed

Affinity
Game 1 hope to pack a lot of removal. This is very unfavorable. If you are lucky they will play a ton of free crappy spells on their first turn, then you can hymn their good spells. Game 2 and 3 are highly favorable because Pernicious Deed destroys all their creatures and lands (lol). If you can reach stage 2 you have a huge advantage, as their deck is mostly acceleration and has very little gas.

Sideboard:
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Flex
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Bant
The game can often be won in stage 1 by breaking their Greedy 3 color manabase. Make sure you time discard well to eliminate Natural Order or keep them to less than 4 mana if the game goes long. Try to hold threats until you have Cleared their hand with discard. Natural Order is your biggest nemesis in stage 2.
Be weary of Sower of Temptation and Mind Harness after board.

Sideboard:
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Tarmogoyf
+2 Thrun the last troll
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Counterbalance, Landstill or Dreadstill
Turn 1 Thoughtseize is ideal as stripping their combo is vital to winning. These decks run Greedy 3 color manabases so winning early in Stage 1 is often easy. They will also be at a card disadvantage in the early stages of the game. Take advantage of this windOw.

Game 2 and 3 get much easier with the addition of Thrun the last troll. HOwever, be ready for sweepers, depending on their color (Perish, Firespout) or steal effects(Mind Harness, Sower of Temptation).

Sideboard:
-1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Tarmogoyf
+2 Thrun the last troll

i would never cut top for GSZ, never ever in my entire life!^^..... beside i think GSZ is to make a more creature-toolbox approach, and not for solely increasind thread density

@ gerrards verdict: i am switching back an forth between my current list with quasali pridemage in the 2 flex slots and the list with verdict. i think verdict is the best in combo-enviroment where you will need addictional discard, otherwise its decent against aggro and control. against control and combo though i would allways prefer targeted discard
but the strength of verdict is actually because of mox diamond, it increases percentage of following play:

1st turn: land, mox, hymn
2nd turn: land hymn/verdict + whatever

this play is brutal, and it cripples allmost every opponent

but i will stick for now with the pridemages in this slot, thread-density probem solved, added some utility which is allways fine, and he beats for 3, and ends goyfstalls

Why post this as well as in "The Rock" thread? Why does this need a new thread?

Because this isnt a "rock" deck, im glad someone has finally started a junk thread with its current incarnation.

This is essentially the same list as in the Rock primer. You'd do well to repost your match up analysis in the Rock thread, that way it will be read more and contribute to the discussion.

"Junk is a deck that is meant to have a decent match-up against all of the tier 1 decks in the first game, then take a significant advantage after sideboard. This is also a deck that requires skilful, interactive play to perform optimally."

The same is true of very many decks in Legacy...

@ warallthetimne
Actually, this list epitomises the deck that is known as The Rock. Some people also refer to it as Junk or Dark Horizons. It's the same deck. There's currently no other deck that's gets called The Rock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RexFTW

Merefolk
This is probably your best matchup. In stage 1 you should be aiming to disable their Island s and AEther Vial s. Most of the creatures in their deck cost 2 blue mana and they run 8 colorless lands. Exploit that if possible. Turn 1 Thoughtseize on AEther Vial or MerrOw Rejery is often ideal.
Your goal is to make the game into an Attrition war. Your creatures are larger and your removal is better. You also have stronger topdeck abilities. Do not worry about taking early damage, unload all of your discard as quickly as possible and move to stage 2 if you can not land screw them early. Try to play around Wasteland if you are fortunate enough to get Mox Diamond by fetching basics.
After sideboarding Pernicious Deed makes the game near unwinnable.
Be prepared for Perish game 2 and 3 if they play fetchlands.
Sideboarding:
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Vindicate
-1 Karakas / Stirring Wildwood
+2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

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This is just a nitpick from my perspective as the Merfolk player, but this matchup i don't believe is as heavily favored as you depict it. I will grant that most of my evidence is personal anecdotal experience as I've only dropped the match once as the Merfolk pilot off a poor mulligan decision. But here's my counterpoints:

12 Creatures with single U in the cost vs. usually 10 or 11 with Double U.. It's close to an even split, but most of our creatures don't have UU cost.

We do have a good amount of countermagic for your spells pre and post board. Your early disruption meeting Dazes or Spell Pierces turns what should be 2 for 1's in your favor to 1 for 1's, or maybe 1 for 1 and setting me back a land drop. In some cases, especially if I stick Vial, the land drop doesn't matter as badly.

Mono blue versions have been moving slowly away from the old 20 land, 12 island 8 colorless land, setup... Myself run 14 Islands, 4 Wastes, and 3 mutas... I've been contemplating dropping another muta for an Island as I can bring Back to Basics out of the board easier. So disrupting Islands can be harder than you'd think

Submerge in response to knight/fetch can be decimating to you while fighting to resolve threats through our counterwall. Echoing Truth (some have begun main-decking it) also hurts when it returns 2 goyf walls or Knights for an alpha strike.

Kira making you jump through hoops to answer our creatures ties up a lot of your mana.


Perhaps I've just been lucky in my other matches and that my last Junk match was what the deck is supposed to do all the time, I've just never been personally impressed by Junk as a Merfolk pilot. Sorry to derail and nitpick your primer, just seems to me to be a lot less favorable than you depict.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sims

This is just a nitpick from my perspective as the Merfolk player, but this matchup i don't believe is as heavily favored as you depict it.

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As a Rock player, I believe you are correct. Preboard the matchup is probably slightly unfavourable for The Rock, and postboard Relic of Progenitus, Jitte and Submerge all really hurt too. And don't think trying to manascrew a Merfolk player is a good idea.

As a Junk player, I agree that Junk is a subtype of The Rock and this list with its information should be put in the The Rock primer. If you disagree, then read the The Rock primer then explain why this should become a subtype primer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FieryBalrog

There were 22 copies of Zenith in the top 16 of SCG DC, it was the fourth most played card behind Brainstorm, Goyf and Force of Will. What on earth are you rambling about?

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Actually its behind more than that also cause there was more wastelands than GSZ also.But besides that I expect the number of decks using it to decline some and suspect the influx of GSZ was due to it being new and people are trying to utilize it...Its good but only in aggo decks and its value is limited in those....

Why should Junk be a different thread? I believe that rock is a metagame deck, it is constantly changing to provide answers to the expected meta. This makes it an entirely different beast and is not the case with Junk. From the rock thread:

Quote:

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Rock typically goes one of a few ways: either heavy control, disruption based aggro, or mid-range beats with a good amount of answers.

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You dont call Threshold and CB/Top the same deck eventhough they run 40 of the same cards and are the same colors do you?

historically rock was black/green and i think the addition of white to the deck evolves the deck from the decks of old. its like saying my tabby cat that lounges on the couch all day is the same as a lion tearing the throat out of a gazelle on the savannas of africa. same animal different beast, the deck has evolved past what rock was back in the day so i do believe it should be seperate from the rock thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RexFTW

Why should Junk be a different thread? I believe that rock is a metagame deck, it is constantly changing to provide answers to the expected meta. This makes it an entirely different beast and is not the case with Junk. From the rock thread:

You dont call Threshold and CB/Top the same deck eventhough they run 40 of the same cards and are the same colors do you?

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Thresh plays the Tempo game while CB Top plays the control role nearly all the time. Both this deck and the decks discussed in the Rock thread are disruptive decks which pack universal answers and aim to end the game with giant beaters. Not sure what you want to say there.

This deck sports Vindicate, which basically is The Rock in it's essence: A card that answers nearly everything. It even contains mana acceleration, which is a historic trait of The Rock, as far as I know.

To me, a deck that packs the best removal, best disruption and best beatsticks GBW offer is The Rock and that's the case with a lissts I've seen labeled "Junk" so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by warallthetimne

historically rock was black/green and i think the addition of white to the deck evolves the deck from the decks of old. its like saying my tabby cat that lounges on the couch all day is the same as a lion tearing the throat out of a gazelle on the savannas of africa. same animal different beast, the deck has evolved past what rock was back in the day so i do believe it should be seperate from the rock thread.

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If you observed the Rock primer carefully, you might have noticed a lot lists there look a lot like yours and that's not because they are suddenly discussing a different deck in the Rock thread - they talk about The Rock, a disruptive deck that packs answers to pretty much everything and typically ends the game with a giant creature.
The addition of White didn't change the deck in any way, it just improved the deck without altering it's gameplan, adding StP and Vindicate alongside with KotR doesn't change much about how the deck works.
It still disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nidd

The Rock, a disruptive deck that packs answers to pretty much everything and typically ends the game with a giant creature.
It still disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory.

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So bant.dec is also a rock deck? It plays Knight of the Reliquary, swords to plowshares and universal answers (force of will). Bant.dec "disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory." Lets move their thread into the rock thread also. Or should we move junk into the bant thread? Now im confused.....

Clearly this deck is different from rock and bant.

We have a thread for this. It's called the Rock Thread.

-Matt

Yea, this is clearly The Rock. Take a look at the Rock primer--the decklist listed is the same as yours. Of course the Rock thread discusses other kinds of Rock as well (like you said, there are aggro versions, midrange versions, and more controllish versions), but this is definitely a subset of the Rock. If you ask any legacy-savvy player today what "The Rock" means to them, the first decklist they'll show you is Nelson's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RexFTW

So bant.dec is also a rock deck? It plays Knight of the Reliquary, swords to plowshares and universal answers (force of will). Bant.dec "disrupts it's opponent during the first few turns, slams down a giant beater and rides it to victory." Lets move their thread into the rock thread also. Or should we move junk into the bant thread? Now im confused.....

Clearly this deck is different from rock and bant.

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Way to take my post out of context, huh?
I stated that The Rock typically is the best of GBW thrown together to form a disruptive deck that wins via big creatures.
Bant is GUW.

And how is this deck different from The Rock? Just stating this over and over doesn't make that statement true.

They are one and the same. Junk is specific Rock build, basically. Not sure who the hell named it Junk, though. Curse you SCG!

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

They are one and the same. Junk is specific Rock build, basically. Not sure who the hell named it Junk, though. Curse you SCG!

-Matt

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Probably conjured the resemblance to old school PTJunk, so that's what they ran with.

*same colors
*same game plan
*identical decklists

Junk = Rock