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Hmm...interesting. The transformed side of cards has a casting cost of zero. Easy target for engineered explosives / Ratchet @ 0, etc.. I don't know if it's worth it to play more than 3-4 of those guys.
As for Maverick, what can they do against a Moon, if DS plays first? On the other hand, when Maverick plays first... fetch-> basic forest-> N.Hierarch seems bad.
I think that 4 is the ideal number for wolves
My vote: Hanweir Watchkeep (cost 3=first turn, 1/5=agro cry)
Maverick does the same to a Moon that Zoo does... If you haven't it 1st turn they don't care about... They have plenty of basics also... Also the big Aggro combined with Moms is a Problem.
That Transformer seem pretty nice against Aggro. But Transform is a double cleaved Edge [as is Hellbent IMO], but red still gets no love from WotC. Speaking of Transform... What about Instigator Gang? Am I the only one who likes him?
EDIT: Something needs to be done to show transform-cards.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=227415
I think the Instigator Gang is fairly interesting. If you can go > Lockpiece > Gang you can put them on a 3 turn clock. So a shame Dismember shreds him.
Also what should I sideboard in against NO bant? I tested a bit against a friend and it seems like if we dont land a T1 Blood moon we get eaten. A single noble Hierarch can fuel a green sun zenith into a Qasili Pridemage and just ruin our day.
Hey guy's last weekend i have entrend a local tornament of 12 players (not to much players rs), i ended in frist place invicted, the top 4 has: me, reanimator, uw stoneblade, and a bg dark dephts, during the other champ matches i have played against all of them, the final has me and the reanimate endead 2-0 for me, hope this report have ben of any help for the deck rs.
Ps: sorry for the bad english, it's not my country language.
Anarchy is definitely a card you should be running 3+ of in the SB if NO-Bant is popular in your meta as it will kill the two most prominent threats, Prog/KotR.Quote:
Originally Posted by jancz
Phyrexian Revoker is also a viable option for SB as it can either deny them mana from Hierarch/Birds or lock down Qasali (which I most often find to be the more relevant choice).
Burn is another possible choice although perhaps not as viable as the above listed. Flametongue Kavu, Pyrokinesis, and/or Volcanic Fallout are probably your best bet. Pyrokinesis is probably the worst choice as your opponents counters could result in a 1-for-2 on their part, not to mention further advantage being gained for them by their various cantrips. I opt to MD 4 Kavus (due to my current heavy meta of dredge/tribal/zoo). Perhaps the most viable burn for this MU would be Volcanic Fallout as the instant-speed, uncounterable means you can easily kill off Hierarch, Birds, Qasali, Dryad Arbor, and the dreaded Trygon. That having been said, I'm not overly fond of Volcanic due to its 1RR and the fact its less relevant in other MU's.
It's definitely one of the more annoying MU's as our only real out to Proggy is Anarchy, but some MU's are just bad regardless of how much we SB. Honestly, unless your meta is rampant with NO Bant lists I would advise just dedicating a few SB slots to Anarchy and moving on. Revoker/Burn will help the MU as well as having the added benefit of improving other MU's. NO Bant is one of those decks for us where we would have to alter MD/SB more than necessary in order to attempt to compete.
ForlornEgoist
So, I've been mulling around with my Stompy list for quite some time now and honestly think its in need of some modification. So, I'm going to post the list, mull some things here, and see if I can get some opinions.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Batterskull
3 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
3 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Shattering Spree
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Anarchy
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Firstly, I want to look at the Flametongue Kavu. Has anyone else besides myself been using these in their lists recently? I've always debated that one of the key weaknesses of our deck was lack of creature removal of which I felt Kavu a prompt answer. However, it seems that the metagame has been shifting away from the need for burn like Kavu. Not only this, I've been finding myself on ocassion in situations where I cannot drop him because he is the only legal target. I am considering taking him out entirely from the deck, or at least substituting him into the SB.
Moltensteel seems like he'd be a viable 4-of if our deck we're running 3 Batterskull. I honestly rarely am ever dissapointed to see a Moltensteel, and I can usually swing at least 4R, thus making him only cost 2 rather than the traditional 4 life.
Has anyone been having any sucess with Lord of Shatterskull Pass replacements? Anyone who has seen my post in regards to him know I've been rather adamament about the vital role he can fulfill with our deck, but once again look at how our deck seems to gain more strengths from Batterskull/Moltensteel, thus perhaps negating the role he filled. The fact that he can become a 6/6 for an additional 1R is nothing to snuff at, but I've still found myself in situations where I had to waste 2 turns on a creature that itself doesn't affect the board state. Perhaps there is a better replacement?
I may consider taking out 1 Blood Moon and possibly throw it in the SB. It just seems like fewer decks are around right now that get auto-screwed by a T1 Moon effect, and mid-late game its a dead draw.
After much debating several people in my meta, I may reconsider adding RAkroma as a 1-of. As a 1-of she ultimately won't affect majority of my games and can randomly win games when she hits. It seems like having at least 1 wincon the opponent can't answer might be beneficial to the deck.
What I need to do, honestly, is build the artifact version of this deck I've been longing to make for quite some time but never got around to doing such. Basically, the list I had come up with was something to the effect of:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain
4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Batterskull
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Etched Champion
4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Lodestone Golem
Thats a very, very raw list. I know for a fact it could be optimized. But anyway, back to my actual decklist.
As it stands, I think I'm just focusing too hard on trying to make DS a legitimate deck rather than an inconsistent deck which randomly can do good in the right meta. This, perhaps, is where all of my frusturation is currently coming from. Regardless of whether or not I can ever make the deck a DTB, I still plan to get it foiled out. ^~^ (All thats really left is the equipment, SSG, and the Magus).
As far as the SB goes I honestly have no idea what the hell to do about that. The Spree is there primarily to deal with the 2 UR PainterStones in my meta. Revokers are always a solid choice for our deck (and still meta-dependant for MD or SB if you ask me).
The Anarchy is a card which I am having trouble knowing when to put it into the SB. It helps beat NO-Prog/Enchantress which can be trouble MU's for us, but majority of time I don't encounter these decks so I essentially have 3 dead SB slots. I guess I just dread the day I SB them out only to encounter said MU's.
As far as the Volcanic Fallouts go I'm not overly fond of them but with all the U decks in my meta I guess I was just reluctant to let them go although tourney use has altered my opinion. What I need to think about is which cards are relevant enough to warrant uncounterable burn that ultimately won't win me a match or help me in other MU's.
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs seems moot as well. I just hardly see myself actually SBing him in any MU's.
Anyway, theres my little rant. I would appreciate suggestions for how to improve my decklist, or cards/ratios you've found relevant to improving our overall strength.
Forlorn Egoist
So the list i have been playing it's this, the marauderes have showed to be freaking strong against control deck's (since my game fild it's full of them), main metamorph it's very usefull as well.
Lands
11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Creatures
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Falkenrath Marauders
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
Sideboard
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
Here's my list of this fantastic deck:
6x Mountain
4x Great Furnace
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox (aka the basic artifact mana base)
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Seething Song
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Blood Moon
3x Trinisphere
4x Phyrexian Revoker (aka the hate package)
4x Gathan Raiders
2x Covetous Dragon
2x Kuldotha Phoenix
2x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Body and Mind
|||SB|||
3x Shattering Spree
2x Pyroblast
2x Anarchy
1x Blood Moon
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crpyt
2x Arc-Slogger
Kuldotha Phoenix seems very good with 6 discard outlets, 4 Seething Song and 4 Moxen I have. I run 21 artifacts, so reaching metalcraft shouldn't be a problem. The point is not to hardcast him, but to use his ability to come back to live. (RRR is too hard to achieve without a Song.)
Jaya is the discard outlets 5&6 and she hates fishes and other blue stuff (painter etc.) Also, she incinerates non-blue stuff and can be boarded out games 2&3.
Covetous Dragon is obviously good with the load of artifacts I pack in my deck.
Some cards I miss:
-Rakdos Pit Dragon
- This is a Hellbent deck, so he would be a good beater. Should I cut something in order to get him in?
- Arc-Slogger
- No room for him in the maindeck, gets boarded in against goblins etc. One-of would be good in the main maybe.
What do you think about the list I shared? I sobam the correct choice for the deck? The sideboard? Share, share, share opinions.
Perhaps you should describe to us your general meta as DS is one of those decks where the entire structure, rather than 1-3 cards, can be altered based on the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchangel
Since you are going for a more artifact-based build (ie. Kuldotha, Covetous) I would say that 4 Mox Opal > Chrome Mox.
You've got an interesting concept with Kuldotha/discard outlets, however the issue I find is that firstly, it forces you to run Gathan Raiders which as of late has become a subpar creature for the deck, in addition to Jaya. I won't deny that Jaya can be useful, particularly against the dreaded Fish, but shes not going to be an auto-win once resolved against a blue-based deck. They can still play around her quite easily, and she is absolutely dead against a majority of the decks we actually have issue with (keep in mind 3sphere/Revoker/CotV solves a lot of our problems against Blue as it is). Not only this, Kuldotha Phoenix, while having evasion, can only be revived at upkeep and is damn near impossible to cast for us without going to mid-game or having a Song in hand.
Since you've opted to run 4 MD Revoker (which I've always argued is a meta call) I think its unnecessary to MD 7 Moon effects. Honestly, I think you'd be fine MDing 6 Moon effects and leaving it at that (SBing moot). Moon can randomly win G1 and helps us slow down tempo decks, but ultimately it has diminishing returns G2/3 as they immediately fetch basics.
@ Equipment: Have you playtested Batterskull? It may be worth your consideration as it recoup's life and provides a beater. Actually, this may be a better investment for you over the Kuldotha as unlike Kuldotha it can be returned at anytime rather than Upkeep and provides us with a beater/blocker and life gain.
Umezawa's Jitte to me as always been a means more for creature removal than buffs or life gain, so I would advocate upping it to 2.
Sword of Body and Mind is primarily used by us for its Static protections/beater and hence is the best of the swords for us to use. Depending on meta I'd run it as a 2-3.
I won't comment on your SB until I'm more familiar with your meta.
Forlorn Egoist
Koth is always a good choice, i don't runing them righ now because they are a little expansive righ now, and i still have to buy my city's =/
How do you guys feel about Chaos Warp as a maindeck or sideboard solution to problem permanents like Jace, Thopters, or Equipment? I've tried Revokers in the main and I'm still having issues with Stonforge Mystic and friends as well as resolved planeswalkers and Ensnaring Bridges, so I'm currently running 2 mainboard.
Chaos Warp seems like a catch-all with a small drawback against any deck that runs Force of Will. We can deal with most of their permanents besides planeswalkers because our creatures are just bigger, and the mana cost fits perfectly with our mana base. Has anybody tested this card and had positive results?
Well, Koth isn't a bad choice by any means for our deck however he does require you build around him. I'm currently running an artifact build of DS (Lodestone Golem/Etched Champion/Moltensteel Dragon/Batterskull/etc.) so he wouldn't fit too well into my build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonryder124
What you would need to do to assure that you can support him is run 7-8 Moon effects (my list floats between 5 and 6 based on my meta). Also upping the Mountain count to 11 or 12 (up from the standard 10). Koth should sit between 3-4, 3 being the safer number.
The issue I've found with Koth, at least in my playtesting, is that he ultimately doesn't do anything dastardly amazing to the board position. Yea, he provides an extra beater, extra mana, and some free damage snipes, but he really doesn't have an auto-target on his head like Jace 2.0 does. Not only this, he really sees practical application in the mid-to-late game which I've always fought tooth-and-nail to avoid as we have no cantrips or way of pulling ahead once we enter topdeck mode.
To me, Lodestone Golem has always done more for me as he is more easily cast, can actually kill 'Goyfs, and acts as an extra lockdown piece.
Honestly he isn't overly hard to fit into a DS list, I've just found him to be suboptimal to other choices (esp. since the printing of Moltensteel Dragon and Batterskull).
Well, the 2R fits nicely in our mana curve, and don't get me wrong, negating a Planeswalker is nothing to snuff at, but I would like to ask 2 things: Firstly, if artifacts are such a problem aren't you running Shattering Spree? This pretty much answers any artifact-based threat and has the added benefit of sneaking around not only our CotVs but counters as well. Secondly, if you're having such issues with Jace 2.0 then why wouldn't you want to up the count of what is essentially your only answer (other than Revoker) to 3-4? I have not by any means playtested this card nor would my meta particularly be forgiving of running this card, so I would welcome someone whos playtested it to comment as I'm just theorycrafting.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
On a seperate note, I've never found Enchantress to be a hard MU (and even then Anarchy can clean it up nicely) however, some people tend to have issues with the deck moreso than me so I found this little card as a wincon against them: Aura Barbs. The benefit of Anarchy is that it kills Prog/KotR/misc. white threats, but if Enchantress is your focus this might be a better option.
EDIT:
Forlorn Egoist
DS being a meta-deck, you're right. Let's see.. People here are running Zoo, Dredge, Fish, Goblins, The Gate, Team America, ANT, Maverick for the estabilished decks and also many homebrew (boros, cephalid breakfast)Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Reading your comments and thinking about the meta actually made me want to change the structure of my deck, and going more for mana denial.Quote:
STUFF
@ Equipment: Have you playtested Batterskull? It may be worth your consideration as it recoup's life and provides a beater. Actually, this may be a better investment for you over the Kuldotha as unlike Kuldotha it can be returned at anytime rather than Upkeep and provides us with a beater/blocker and life gain.
Umezawa's Jitte to me as always been a means more for creature removal than buffs or life gain, so I would advocate upping it to 2.
Sword of Body and Mind is primarily used by us for its Static protections/beater and hence is the best of the swords for us to use. Depending on meta I'd run it as a 2-3.
I won't comment on your SB until I'm more familiar with your meta.
Forlorn Egoist
Roiling Terrain + SoBaM proved to be a nice synergy while playtesting, RT isn't bad even alone, usually dealing 3-5 damage due to fetch lands/KotR. Also, against Dredge it's nuts. For other LD, I ran Stone Rain and Aftershock + Goblin Ruinblaster
@Equipment, I added 2 SoBaMs but kept Jitte count at 1. Without Gathan Raiderseven two seems too much..
I might post the deck list in case someone's interested.
I would love to see your decklist and more comments on the performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchangel
More of than not, Aura Barbs is useless against Enchantress as they have Solitary Confinement.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Based on this deck list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post542655Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
2x Wasteland
9x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Seething Song
4x Chrome Mox
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Trinisphere
3x Sword of Body and Mind
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Shivan Wumpus
2x Goblin Ruinblaster
3x Stone Rain
3x Roiling Terrain
1x Aftershock
SB:
3x Pyroblast
2x Arc-Slogger
3x Anarchy
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Shattering Spree
1x Phyrexian Revoker
That's a non-artifact version I've tested. Meta-calls like maindeck revokers and sb-pyroblasts can naturally be used for other cards better for your meta.
In general, it's about lands and mana. Trying to limit the amount an opponent casts spells by destroying their lands and using Chalice@1 or 3sphere to disable their cheap spells they still could cast. The plan differs a bit from the old good hellbent strategy, but the key is the same; bombs and disruption.
4x Great Furnace
6x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Seething Song
3x Mox Opal
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Trinisphere
3x Sword of Body and Mind
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Lodestone Golem
3x Ankh of Mishra
3x Stone Rain
3x Roiling Terrain
SB:
Above
And this is the artifact version I run. Similiar to the first list. I've been pondering on adding one-of Batterskull, for I kill myself quite fast with Ankhs and Tombs.
Comments, questions, suggestions?
From Drew Levin's article of "How CotV teaches deckbuilding":
That written, I think that is 100% true...Quote:
- Chalice of the Void is great because it stops them from playing their one-mana spells for the rest of the game. Trinisphere slows the game down, but eventually lets them play their spells.
- Chalice of the Void costs two mana, which you can get from any number of combinations of two-mana lands, Spirit Guides, regular lands, and Moxes. Trinisphere costs three mana, so you probably don't have that many cards left with which to play Magic. To go deeper:
- Trinisphere slows the game down while putting you far behind on cards. You also built your deck in a way that forces you to be weaker in the late game (since, you know, your mana sucks and you aren't playing any cantrips to find action), so you're forcing the game to go late while also building your deck to be worse in that stage of the game. The one situation where that isn't true is where an opponent needs cantrips to find land. This means that…
- Trinisphere is just the worst Stifle/Wasteland ever. Really, if you want to manascrew people, why not at least play the good versions of the cards that manascrew people?
Trinisphere was always the on/off card of this deck, but DS gets worse and worse as it gets in the lategame. We need to disrupt the opponent and kill them ASAP. That was the reason why Hellbent was in the deck, and that's the reason why we run ritual-effets like Seething Song. I still think Phyrexian evoker is a guy that needs to be maindecked, because his home is obviously in Ancient Tomb / Chalice decks. Other than that, I still like Instigator Gang, because it can easily help to generate big beats.
I can see Trinisphere in a land-destruction orientated DS Build, but these builds didn't work in the past, and I haven't seen any cards that improve the land-destruction-strategy in the last years so I see no reason in trying something like that again.
I've actually been playing around with the idea of removing Trinisphere entirely from the deck. Originally in the Hellbent version I was running several years ago it was absolutely required as a lock piece. However, as our deck has evolved and Wizards has printed better pieces for our deck I've begun to question the absolute necessity of Trinisphere. More often than 'naught it is one of the other lock pieces that I require to disable the most prominent threats of an opponent. As the format has evolved I've noticed several decks which are upping standard curve of their deck to 2 or 3, thusly forcing Trinisphere to have less and less effect on the game state.
Currently my decklist features x3 Trinisphere and x4 Lodestone Golem. I've been finding that I want to cast 3sphere later and later in place of aggro or more effective locks T1/2 (Moltensteel/Batterskull/CotV/Moon/etc.) Thusly, unless I cast 3sphere in the first several turns it experiences greater and greater diminishing returns while only barely slowing down their tempo. Lodestone Golem (with the increase in average cmc) essentially fulfills the same locking mechanism as a 3sphere while also providing an efficient beater at any stage of the game.
The benefits of removing 3sphere become apparant in that we open slots so as to provide us with removal, meta slots, less dead drawss, etc. Of course I've still got much playtesting and tournament practice before I am ready to shed the 3sphere entirely, however I think it is a card that, like Hellbent, is becoming more and more like a suboptimal card to be running in our deck.
Forlorn Egoist
I'd actually like to comment that I have not had some of the issues with 3Sphere that others observe. It is by no means bad and there are definitely games I have won on it's back, but the diminishing returns from it is huge. That has been an issue at times and there have been times where I've wanted Karn (creature) to help extra spheres get in there.
I have actually been more disillusioned by other aspects of the deck. In particular, I have found Seething Song and it's ilk and Phyrexian Revoker extremely underwhelming. Many times I actually don't want really want Song or the creatures that follow it.
Moons on the other hand have been consistently amazing for me. I went down to 7 but I might go back up to 8 honestly.
I am also currently being lazy with my sideboard and I ran the Painter's Stone suite (4 Painter, 4 Grindstone, 4 REB, 3 Pyro) and it was actually very successful. I have been boarding in all 15 cards in every match and so I am thinking of trying to fuse Imperial Painter and Dragon Stompy. Pit Dragon and Koth have still been very good for me, but the Painter's Stone win is very effective.
Chaos Warp seemed very good to me at first, but those slots push us on the defensive side. It serves me as a desperate solution against opponent locks or large creatures (or even a way to utilise a twin blood moon or on that fifth-sixth land). I think it's a little bit out of the main strategy. Of course it does help to remove the fetched singleton basics, but the result is unreliable, that's all.
I still like it though, and I'm trying to include 2 in my lists for now.
I want to try 3 Grafted Skullcap when I can (in a non/semi-hellbent list).
Whereas I like land-destruction ideas.. what do we do when Crucible of worlds / Life from the loam / Noble Hierarch / AEther Vials show up AND at the same time our MAIN plan is land-destruction?
Or even decks that can play around without needing lands necessarily? Revoker can't take care of all these things. Warp could help occasionally, but again, gifting a land when you play L-d is bad.
My suggestion there would be Pillage. Again, I think that the L-d thing can be countered more easily. Try and tell if it's really worth it, but if I were you, I'd also play 3 Pillage (and maybe Pyrokinesis).