Printable View
I've been testing my deck vs. Merfolk (with mental misstep). I think I need to do more testing but so far the MU has definitely gotten harder. I used to just auto win vs. Merfolk - but now the MU is about 50/50.
Vials getting countered really hurts - lackey getting countered doesn't hurt as much, but losing my vials just takes a huge punch away from this MU. The vs. Merfolk MU isn't impossible to win or anything, but its definitely feels a lot more even now.
Yeah, that MU's slowly been shifting towards even for a while now. People realized Standstill blows and now we don't have that edge, worse, they've replaced them with threats. Mental Misstep isn't going to help us here.
In conjuncion with Piledriver and/or Warchief MWM is the better card. Getting 3 threats for RR instead of one lousy 1/1..Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
WI sucks as topdeck. And it can be chumped with every creature ever played, where MWM needs 2. Often you dont even have something to cheat into play which couldnt be played/vialed anyway.
Yes, MWM can be a defensive card, but thats an advantage. Ive won many games with MWM smashing faces or getting a plow to avoid a 2nd token.
Maybe WI is getting better with MM in the format because you lose Vial and Lackey more often.
@Foxblade: Did you run MM yourself?
Are you kidding me? Warren Instigator is a much better topdeck than a pair of vanilla 1/1's. Also, no one cares if you MWM hits the table. He's good against Zoo and hyperaggressive decks, but Warren Instigator forces them to play defensively, thereby saving you life.
Thank you bakofried. Humphrey seems delusion/troll, I don't know which... What do you think are some proactive sb cards vs merfolk? Too bad there isn't an uncounterable boil :D.
Also if they wanted to give a boost to goblins they could unban goblin recruiter :)
Well, if WI is such an awesome card, why everybody kicked him out after the first tests? Whatever, I might try him again in the MM Meta, but so far im fine with MWM.
About proactive merfolk, idk. I used 3-4 Pyroblast and Pyrokinesis so far, thats reactive but effective :D P.Needle can help, too. (Mutavaults, Commander, Jitte, Vial). 2 1 spells, though.
With some greensplash, Choke might be useful.
No, I just don't feel that mental misstep has a place in goblins. I tried playing with it a few times, but when I did - if I didn't have it in my opening hand it was worthless and even then it was really only good to help put out vial or lackey and only if they didn't have another counter, which they almost always had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey
If I wasn't playing vs. a deck that packed counters it totally sucked, because I almost ALWAYS wished it was something else game 1.
Anyway I have to agree with bakofried - WI is fantastic.
Here's my arguments for instigator:
If he resolves and hits your opponent, its almost an auto-win and he only costs rr! I think that alone is reason enough to run him, but if that isn't enough reason to run him, consider:
He has double strike.
He can potentially tutor up any goblin with matron and put it directly into play uncounterable.
He can give you cards and allow you to play a goblin among them with ringleader, again uncounterable.
He gets around mental misstep.
He makes your opponents play defensively and/or makes your opponents use their counters/removal spells on him instead of our other threats.
I don't think MWM has nearly as strong of an interaction that WI does with the rest of the deck. It powers some of our other cards sure, but it doesn't win by itself nor is it a threat that our opponent have to answer. Instigator powers cards in our deck and can outright win games by himself.
As Bakofried mentioned as well Instigator allows us to play aggressively while our opponent plays defensively around him.
Ironically, the same thing happened with MWM...Quote:
Well, if WI is such an awesome card, why everybody kicked him out after the first tests? Whatever, I might try him again in the MM Meta, but so far im fine with MWM.
Delete, for some reason forum double posted....
We have discussed and debated before over MWM vs. WI. For a control meta WI is usefull but for an aggro meta MWM is better. But for me MWM is much better for its synergy to sharpshooter,piledriver,gemphalm,warchief,chieftain,skirk prospector, etc... It can be used as delaying blockers vs aggrodecks until we established our board and also destroying bridge from below vs. dredge. If you run 4 ports and 4 wastelands which is my built its impossible to run WI mainboard but if you only run 4 colorless plus 2 chrome moxes then WI/Chieftain is good. But for me again with testing and results, MWM is my MVP:cool:
Well, it must be nice to have such a known meta where classic Goblins still works, but that doesn't cut it elsewhere. Now, I certainly don't think Humphrey's a troll, but he wasn't just kicked out after initial tests. Tacosnape was a huge advocate for him, quite a while ago (you can see his build on one of my posts, I'm using it now) and, to be fair, we weren't using him correctly. He warps games that he is in, which is a huge plus, something which MWM does not.
Wew, another victory :D
1st place on a 32 players mini-tournament on my local store, 5-0 for the lol :D
My list is the same on the post #643.
Matches:
1) UWr CounterTop (Humilty and Planeswalker stuff)
1st game - T1 Vial, followed by a second Vial T2 + Wasteland on Tundra. WI connected Matron -> SGC. Eh, unpacked my sideboard... (only for mindgaming, because I didn't board anything at all).
2nd game - He said I could start (I don't really know why). T1 Vial. He goes for T1 Pithing Needle. T2 Piledriver, ate a Daze. T3 Warchief, ate a Force of Will. T4 Ringleader, resolved, getting me 1 gempalm and lands. He goes for Humility T4 and Elspeth T5, pretty much over.
3rd game - T1 Lackey, no response (he goes for T1 Top). Lackey -> SGC -> Wasteland on Volcanic Island. Kept punching until he reaches 3 life (but my lackey was StP). He plays Firespout, but I sac a token with SGC in response, getting him to 1. I play the fourth Land, and played a topdecked Ringleader, he actives Top, revealing a Force of Will, he flips the Top getting the FoW and suicide for the lol.
2) Affinity (usual one with speed and Glimmervoids)
1st game - He won the roll and had the nuts. Finishes me off by turn 3, while my Vial @2 is just sitting there for nothing.
-4 AEther Vial
+2 Shattering Spree
+2 Null Rod
2nd game - He mulls to 5 and starts slow. My lackey connects bringing Warchief, played Piledriver and wasted his Great Furnace. That was pretty much it, he didn't play another land, and his 0cc guys couldn't hold for long.
3rd game - He goes for T1 triple Ornithopter, Great Furnace -> Springleaf Drum + Lotus Petal -> Cranial Plating (I almost cried). But I topdecked a Chrome Mox and played T1 Null Rod for the win :D
3) Dredge (non-LED one)
1st game - He goes slow with DDD (draw, discard end of turn, dredge) while my T1 WI goes nuts on Ringleader -> Chieftain -> Piledriver.
+4 Leyline of the Void
-4 AEther Vial
2nd game - I start with LotV, and he shows 2 Ancient Grudges in his hand and scooped (I didn't play any Badlands/Hovel, so he wasn't expecting a LotV :D)
4) Merfolk (mono-blue)
1st game - T1 WI -> Warchief + Piledriver -> Topdecked another Piledriver, and that was it, lol.
2nd game - We both go for T1 Vial. Game starts off slow, but when I manage to get some board position, he steals my Chieftain with Sower of Temptation and next turn plays 2 LoA (1 off vial, 1 hardcasted) and a Jitte. Damn...
+2 Shattering Spree
-1 Warren Instigator
-1 Goblin Cheiftain
3rd game - T1 Lackey, he goes T1 Cursecatcher. Gempalmed his Cursecatcher and Lackey -> Chieftain. Turn 3 I played another Chieftain and beated the crap out of him.
5) Merfolk (white splash)
1st game - Long and boring game. He had a lot of Swords to Plowshares and counterspells for every Lackey/Piledriver I played. But a Ringleader revealed 4 Goblins for my pure happiness and I managed to beat him with some Chieftain, Warchief and Ringleader with a little help from Stingscourger bouncing a max leveled Coralhelm Commander.
+2 Shattering Spree (I saw his Jitte get 8 counters on his first round)
-1 Warren Instigator
-1 Warren Weirding (don't know why I boarded this out)
2nd game - We both go for T1 Vial. He plays T2 Jitte, vial @1. I waste his Tundra and play a Lackey off vial. He plays no lands, but goes for a LoA off vial. I draw my second Mountain, and play Shattering Spree for Vial + Jitte :D. He can't manage to get another blue source (he had an Island and a Mutavault) and I finish him with double Piledriver. After the game, he showed me 2 Coralhelm Commanders stuck in his hand, HAHAHA SWEET WASTELAND.
That was pretty much it, I was very, very lucky on all my matches, despite some dice rolls. Won 50R$ (brazilian money) and a set of foil pre-release Wurmcoil Engine, which granted me another 40R$ :D
@GoboLord My Hovel didn't face any Wasteland during the whole tournament, I'm still sticking with those.
Still wishing for Pulverize? As a side note, Spree is stronger against StaxXx shell decks, where Pulverize is fairly poor against 3sphere.
Okey, so i just started to play magic again after some months break and still rolling Goblins as usuall. I'm using the same list as i've been very succesfull with in tournaments, has the meta changed much since the Survival ban? Because that was the last time i played, right before the survival ban.
Maybe you could give me a quick sum up of what important changes that have happen? I've seen much more High Tide and Combo decks than before, so maybe i'll play my secret Instigator Tech list :P
Anyways, here is my list:
MD;
4 Aether Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Warren Weirding
5 Mountain
3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
SB;
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish
Nice! Looks like Chrome Mox won you these games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I'm unsure, I completely got Wasted on MTGO because of the Hovels. Would fetch into Mountain/Badlands have lost you any games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
It certainly looks like Shattering Spree gets the job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
A quick sum up of what happened: all the cool kids play Warren Instigators and Chrome Moxen and win lots and lots of games. Only glee club still plays MWM.Quote:
Originally Posted by antonbystedt
I tested an Mox/Wi list last night and i dont know how you guys manage to get decent draws with that. Sometimes I have both in hand, but after the pitch not many useful goblins left to bring into play. Or I get WI/Mox as topdeck, which is crap. (WI a good topdeck, whos trolling here?)
Sorry, I still think this setup is more inconsistent than a classic build.
I remember a Discussion about Mox few years ago, this card was kicked, too.
I tried Chrome mox and found the same situation a lot (Pitching a card and then having less to play, being dead if not in opening hand). I think it depends on how much card disadvantage for tempo is your meta. Against affinity and the like i could see it being good.
Humphrey, don't be a moron. The statement was Warren Instigator, as a topdeck, is better than Mogg War Marshall. We would all love to rip Siege-Gang Commanders, Goblin Ringleaders and Goblin Matrons all day, but we don't.
And really, I'm still on the fence concerning C. Mox. It doesn't look like a bad choice, but it just doesn't feel optimal to me. I dunno. Win another tournament and convince me. =D
Card values change over a few years... I played lava dart "a few years ago" in Goblins too! (before SGC was printed)Quote:
I remember a Discussion about Mox few years ago, this card was kicked, too.
I'm starting to think there's no good path to take this deck on, and that if Goblins gains any benefit at all it'll be from combo taking a huge hit out of the Mental Misstep shift.
Here are my early testing quick-hit thoughts:
1. I'm iffish on Mental Misstep in this deck. It's AMAZING in an opening hand. Protecting a Lackey, countering an opposing Lackey, stopping STP, stopping blockers, eating a Thoughtseize, stopping Mental Misstep. It's incredible. However, once that first turn is over, Goblins doesn't want to see it ever again. It wants more land and more guys. I can't help but wonder if MM is going to prove to be a sideboard card for Goblins.
2. I like Warren Instigator again. He's pretty good. Maybe not enough to run 4 of. Maybe not enough to run. But he's better now.
3. I don't think Goblins should be afraid to run 1-drops. I've added a single Tarfire and a couple Mogg Fanatics in a non-MM build and have been satisfied. The easy removal has been amazing against Hierarchs, Elves, Lavamancers, Confidants, Lackeys, you name it.
4. That said, I think if you start chickening out from 1-drops then you need to take Goblins on the Chalice of the Void path. Which is a risky and uncharted path to go, and I think there's better options if you want to go this way.
5. I'm not sure Goblins has a lot of time left in this format.
After some testing the build with Menatl Misstep with RBg goblins I can say that the card is two edged sword just as Tacosnape say. But after all i believe that we don't have other option but to run it mainboard. Lets face it :
1. We need MM versus Merfolks - to counter their Vials and their MM. The match is still positive - they cannot deal so easy with the Piledrivers and the Ports for their Mutavaults. The match is positive as it was before MM.
2. We have better Zoo match now for sure. MM helps us to have Lackey connect countering their 1 mana drops and removal.
3. We have a harder match vs Counterbalance decks now, same with Landstill.
4. With Bant aggro decks - our match doesn't change much. We have a counter for their swords, mana dorks, while they have counter for our vials.
5. Dredge is the same match with the small difference we can now counter turn one imp or tribe.
6. TES and ANT decks are taking huge hit from now on and in my opinion those decks will not be so popular.
GP Providence will show I am right or wrong, but i expect at least 1 Goblin deck using MM in Top 16.