Explore has been testing stronger than Deathrite Shaman in this list, even with the full 4 Show and Tells main?
I also find your lack of faith in Venser....distrubing.
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Explore has been testing stronger than Deathrite Shaman in this list, even with the full 4 Show and Tells main?
I also find your lack of faith in Venser....distrubing.
Yeah, explore seems really cute and less resilient than DRS. I definitely ran some test with explores and explorations to do a sort of Turboland-ey kind of thing. It's pretty cool when it works, but I feel like it gets away from the heart of the deck. At its core, this is a temp-control deck with an explosive top-end.
This control concept is why I'm still maindecking Venser. Hitting stride with a Venser lock online creates a wealth of lines of play to power through the mid-game and top out with some spaghetti.
That said, I think there's probably an awesome 12-post build out there that functions as a true turboland deck. Cards like Summer Bloom, Explore, and Exploration with a Horn of Greed or two on the board can create some absolutely bonkers turns. Candelabra of Tawnos can allow us to start untapping our posts to generate even more mana real quick. I wonder how quickly we could cast emrakul in this shell.... I might have to do some brewing.
Another cutesy card that could be tested is Retraced Image. It functions as bonus land drop for a Post if it ends up in hand, but I think it'll end up being way too cutesy.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Funk
I've tried screwing around with builds that incorporate TurboLand/TurboMulch with 12Post, and there's some big problems with space. I built around Mulch+Life from the Loam, Horn of Greed+Explore/Exploration, and hybrids. But you end up taking too much space to put this engine in the deck, which is slow by Legacy standards, in order to ramp into Eye --> Emrakul. Its the same reason that 43 Lands doesn't run a Post/Tron+Emrakul package: it takes up too much space to do too little.
Please elaborate? How is DRS more resilient than explore in terms of net advantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Funk
I don't play "cute" cards unless I'm purposely messing around, which I am not. as a 2 drop, it is one of the most cost-effective cards in the game. Repeal is the only card that contests it.
I used the wrong word. You are correct, DRS isn't resilient, but I feel that he is more versatile. I like the toolkit of options that he gives us. Being able to interact with my opp's graveyard and chump block are pretty relevant in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I still think there's definitely a place for Explore type cards somewhere in this deck, as you have clearly demonstrated by using Oracle to success. I just feel that I don't want to Sacrifice DRS's toolkit quite yet.
I'm excited to hear how Explore works out for you, however.
Tried out a pretty sweet list: UG post lands, DRS, GSZ (with arbor), Natural Order, 1 Oracle, 1-2 Titan [Read that twice], No Kozilek, 2 Candles, usual suspects and blue support. Couple Tool box creatures.
Will report better once I try it more, only has about 20 matches under the belt, but its been strong. The idea was move with the 'combo-push' by dropping the curve severely. But in doing so with cheaper sorcery tutors, you are also progressing the lists ability to play the control role - by being able to tutor lands AND creatures [Teeg mostly]. Does this while leaving room for blue support.
Fewer virtual mulligans, less dead draws, better off the top. Tutors can be defensive and offensive against combo so you arent going into game 2+3 with a super slow clock.
Anyone tried this approach? Thoughts?
PS on explore: It has forever been slots 76-79 for me, though I want it so badly to work (without abandoning blue).
What do you use Natural Order for? I fear we don't have many green creatures to sacrifice to cast itQuote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
I recognize that having the possibility to ruin storm game-plan g1 by zenithing Gaddock can be huge, but i'm not a fan of playing too many cards that are negated by his effect too, just like NO, Repeal and Zenith itself. I really appreciate the idea of Teeg, i just wouldn't play him main deck together with NO an repeals
Yeah I agree. NO wasn't an issue to fire off with DRS and arbors with many ways to get each. Teeg did get moved to the board for the reasons you've mentioned. NO just ends up being a 4 mana Titan, but mainly it's the GSZ that make it different especially with candles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
I'm not convinced of any of this yet, but the angle of attack felt right IMO
Of course Tim and I are both keen on innovating but from differing directions. Likely bringing a less experimental build to Philly. Full playsets of Core cards, thragtusks, repeals. Repeal just makes earning wins no longer necessary.
I am not sure what is the funniest part about that, CUTE little post, you know, that one I just quotedQuote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
That J.R. Got massively defensive, due to simple criticism. The kind where you bounce ideas off other people.
Or, the part where the most effective card in the game, at the cost of 2 is explore/repeal. Haha, explore, is no bob, Sylvan library, time walk....idk let's see half of the cards used in compatible decks at the cost of 2!
I also like that fact you just argued against DRS. A week ago it was the man! Now its getting cut, for a 2 drop. Wow.
Sorry, turn one "birds" was always a better play, then turn 2 rampant growth.
its cute how you get defensive. And yes I understand that rampant growth, and explore and completely different cards. But so is birds vrs drs
But! The funniest part is still how you said, that cute cards have a place, ONLY when you are messing around. Ahahah
oh, I know. But you are NOT MESSING AROUND
I got that.
BUT I AM. :-P
Try it some time. You night actually have fun
On a serious note. Candel should never be cut from the deck, its clearly the most insane tool the deck has. If it lands on field, its a show and tell, for casting costs, and land abilities. Abrupt decay is the only real card that can kill it, pre sb. It is also a lightning rod for counters, and spot removal
This deck requires a read on you opponent, you need to play around them, so you can control the game, until the point you resolve a big man spell. Btw you win when that happens. peace out
-dan hall
PS. If your deck is not pimp, it does not work as well. #DroppingKnowledge
time walk = legacy?
Moving on from whatever that nonsense was..
Exactly. So far the core with maindeck DRS Glen Elendra and Repeal has been most fitting, and worth bringing to tourneys for me. Though I really might be going forward with one GSZ, just to have another titan. It fits well in kozilek's spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Repeal and GSZ is making candles look appetizing though...
Thank you for your input here Tim. Can you provide us with what you consider the latest "stable" (as in non-beta) version of the deck with DRS and Repeals? Jeremiah's list on the last page doesn't feature Repeal IIRC.
I know you asked Tim, but my current list does run Repeal. Here is what is my stable (non beta, I like that term) version:Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [TSP] Vesuva
2 [IA] Forest (3)
1 [MI] Island (4)
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [M13] Thragtusk
3 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
Is glacial chasm still necessary (particularly in the main)? I've found that the life gained from thragtusk and/or primeval titan fetching glimmerposts is *more* than enough Ifegain to live to the endgame, and that i feel like glacial chasm is a dead draw nearly every time i draw it. The only two decks i ever want "infinite life" versus "arbitrarily large life" is against are elves and goblins, and turn 1 DRS is a *lot* better against goblins, IMO. (By god, i love 1/2's against a goblin lackey =p).
That said, glacial chasm is basically the only way i can ever beat a competent combo elves player, so i think it still has a place in the board.
It is also one of the better solutions to Price of Progress, which is a card that can shit on the decks inevitability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortuga
It's challenging to get most out of Chasm but as has been stated many times: it's a neccessary evil.
It isn't necessary to do that to get out of price, especially given the relative rarity of price, and the tendency that most decks that run price (read: burn) have to spend most of their cards 2 for 1ing themselves to deal with thragtusk or primeval titan. Also, glimmer post gains you more life than you lose to price, so if you get only glimmerposts, and play basics early, you can actually afford to be priced for 20 like twice. It especially hurts the burn decks that your lifegain machines are legitimate win conditions on their own as well. In addition, you can still board into chasm, i just feel that elves is the only deck that chasm actually shifts the match from "you're going to lose" to "they can't win", where gaining 10-20 life wouldnt do the same thing.
Finally, the boarding plan, specifically the flusterstorms, are also super good against price decks, and i don't think you need a better mainboard defense against it when a) you still have a decent chance game 1 (i would say 50% or greater), and your board demolishes them (assuming you can beat blood moon).
Isn't this the definition of a sideboard card?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
I think you're describing best scenarios only, when you're still safe and sound at turn 4/5 or even later and you're already trumping your opponents with Titans/Tusks/Eldrazis/whatever. But what when you're facing tough decks like RUG and they start the game by deploying a delver, promptly followed by a tarmogoyf and a wasteland on your precious post? i've found myself in these situations a ton of times and i won many times hiding behind glacial chasm while stocking resources to play our expensive spells, trying to outnumber their counterspells. Of course, Glacial chasm may have lost a bit of its appeal lately (expecially if you have decided to drop your expedition maps) but i think it still deserves a slot main-deck. It saved me countless times.
I have fou d that my rug matchup got a *lot* better once deathrite shaman was added. It gives waste resistance, life points, a blocker, and makes it easier to cast show and tell. In addition, rug damn near folds to thragtusk. Also, repeal becomes one of the best cards in the deck against delver, because U: unsummon, draw a card is reaaaally good. Also, i usually find myself boarding *out* glacial chasm against rug (esp on the draw), simply because show and tell is how you beat them. They only have 4 hard counters, and most of the time you can generate the extra mana to pay for daze. You can also relatively easily bait a force with show and tell and hardcast thragtusk the next turn. Like, glacial chasm is faar from a necessary card to beat rug if you practice the matchup (it punishes misplays *hard*), and even with glacial chasm, i dont find any real difference in win pdrcentage against them, primarily because they have 4 wastes already, a serious clock, and you go a land down just playing chasm.