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If rug nut draws you with a bunch of submerges and delvers, there isn't much you can do. It's that kind of deck. Wall of blossoms is unfortunately super narrow and only good against ultra aggressive decks like rug. But if you meta is like half delver, why not. Id prefer something like kitchen finks though because it's actually quite a bomb when you want to stabilize. It gives you so much value and it can swing as well.
RUG is the only reason I like keeping Life from the Loam in the deck.
I tried Kitchen Finks. It's not "bad". Still 3 mana vs. 2 mana. I even tried Obstinate Baloth, since I bring that in vs. Jund and BUG mirrors (very very excellent). It's 4 mana though, so yeah, same damned argument.
Maybe a good old standby, Engineered Explosives?
For some reason I thought the matchup against D&T was favorable or at least fine. But yesterday i tested and lost a lot against it..
Giving our meta (and maybe yours too?) will se more D&T during the following weeks how do we stay tuned against them?
I run 4 decay, 3 bolt, 3 pun.fire -a pretty good removal pack that practically hits everything they have in their deck, assuming no early mother we cant answer..
AFter board we often have various forms of sweepers, like Plague, Deed, Charm, which also should help. Maybe also KRosan Grip.
What do we do against them if this isnt enough?
PS: I was hinted by a friend who played a skill guy at Bazaar of Moxen, who sided out goyfs, as D&T takes in Rest in Peace. Interesting!
it could be crazy....but what about 1 or better 2 young pyromancer in our jund deck? with it also our discrd card in late game can became usefull....and with punishing fire it is a really creature machine!
what do you think? and wich slot could we use?
thanks
Yeah, I played this matchup a lot and I must say D&T isn't that easy, but with a bit of practice and attention to their threats (like always keeping mana open for a bolt in your EOT if they have Vial at 1 for Mother) you should be ok, Jund has several and recurring answers to everything they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
Just don't be outplayed by their tricks, and play control, because a competent D&T player will play aggro vs us.
Rest in peace is problematic, so most times it should be the main discard target IMHO.
@anakyn
By playing control would that include siding out goyfs? We dont have that many dead maindeck cards against them?
What would you side out from the average Jund deck?
Thoughtseize is great against fetched equipment
Hymn might still be ok? Not sure here
Bolt, P.fire, decay stays for sure
Liliana? too many creatures in D&T? Single discard not so tough for them, and can be stopped by revoker.
Sylvan library is nice because of StP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
First of all I have to say that my Jund build is slightly better than the "average" build against D&T, cause I play 1-2 more spot removals: 4 Decays, 3 Bolts, 3 Fires.
When I say "play control" I mean we should be reactive on their threats rather than try to race them.
With all the removal we pack, the control plan seems more comfortable to play, while racing them seems hard since they have more creature and more evasive, and Mom can block our biggest guy (Goyf) all day long.
The strategy I prefer is trying to stick a Confidant and growing card advantage while keeping their creatures and clock under control with our removal. Usually they plow Confidant right away, but if we play a turn 1 Shaman it's probable they won't have another answer for a turn 2 Confidant. Or we could just Thoughtseize away their Plow turn 1 and we have a Confidant in hand.
This is my sideboard plan against D&T:
+ 1 Loam: great against their strong denial
+ 3 Engineered plague: usually naming humans, but since I can draw multiple copies the 2nd one is useful for the Revoker too (naming Horror), which is IMHO the 2nd more annoying creature (besided Mom) we can kill right away with Plague
+ 1 Bloodbraid elf: this is debatable since it costs 4 and their denial is so much annoying, but usually the games vs D&T are long enough for us to reach 4 mana.
- 3 Tourach: Hymn is great in game 1, but since most D&T players boards in Wilt-leaf liege specifically for Jund, Tourach game 2-3 is a big risk that I don't wanna take
- 2 Goyf: there are 3 problems here --> Rest in peace, Mom and Crusader. While we can usually take care of the Mom and Crusader, Rest in peace can be an issue if it's not discarded, because even if we Decay it, the Goyf will take some time to grow again. That's why the Goyfs are the first thing I board out after the Tourach, and if I had Ancient grudge / Maeltrom pulse to board in (which I don't use right now, preferring the 4th Decay main), I would take out the 3rd Goyf too.
Liliana is great in this matchup: yes she can be stopped by Revoker, but it's pretty easy for us to get rid of it with some removal. And it's VERY risky to use her +1 unless we already are ahead because of the Liege.
But all in all, if Liliana starts growing and we can protect her, it's the fastest and more reliable way to beat D&T: whatever they do, they do it with creatures, so a Liliana with 4+ counters is more or less a lockdown.
Another point I'd like to make is the n° of Bolts in Punishing Jund: some lists play 2 and some others 3, I prefer the latter because I like to have a turn 1 answer to both Delver and especially Mom.
If they untap with Mom all become more difficult, and that's why I recommend leaving a Bolt / Fire in hand and mana open if they have Vial at 1 in your EOT.
Side note: this is one of those matchups where the Plague shines even if it's not tribal.
Now with all the TNN around it will shine even more, but I really don't understand why many lists in the last months decided to abandon the Plagues.
Great advice. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by anakyn
I will test this to night as I am pretty sure there will be D&T too.
Okay just a brief sum up of last nights action at a 34 man tourny
R1 I meet ANT, or some standard looking storm list.
I got nothing G1 but he sees no lotus petals from ad nauseam and kills himself. SB is -2 bloodbraid, -1 decay,-3 bolt, -3 p.fire, + 3 pyroblast, +3 duress, +3 surgical.
G2 I keep a hand w. duress, hymn, liliana, 2 lands and bolt. He starts with probe and cabal therapy and takes away duress. I play land, go. Then he goes a second cabal to take away hymn. I have nothing and die when he goes off.
SB change: -2 bloodbraid, +2 golgari charm. G3 is exciting. I start with Thoughtseize and see brainstorm, brainstorm, brainstorm, land, preordain, ritual, lions eye. I take ritual so he cant ramp that easily. I get early goyf going gets him down to 11. He tries to go off but chooses the Warrants way and makes 10 tokens. Im above 10 life i think. I top deck DRS and then have Goyf, lily, DRS. Goyf is 5/6 or 6/7. I make him sack a goblin, and passes. He doesnt attack as the he will only lose gobbos and not kill me the turn after. I can get two life from a goyf in the yard. I start pinging him for 2 each turn and gets him that way. The next top deck was golgari charm anyway.
1-0
R2 is against RUG which is a pretty good matchup for me.
He mulls to 5 and I keep. He goes ponder and I go DRS i think. He then burns my dude and puts down mongoose. Bob gets bolted too, and i Die without being able to do anything.
+ 3 pyroblast, +1 life from the loam, +2 golgari charm, -2 hymn, -4 thoughtseize.
G2 i never see a SB card. He gets early mongoose, i have liliana in hand. Then he sticks a second goose and lily takes care of one. Then she is killed, and so am i.
1-1
So very annoying that i never got anything to stick on the table, even when playing around daze all the time. He has every single card against me, where i draw only lands..
R3 is against a BW homebrew with lifegain and 8 board sweepers.
No legacy staple in the deck and I win 2-0 within 10mins.
2-1
R4 Affinity
I dont like this matchup, even with 4 decay and 184091854 burn spells. turn one he goes nuts with whole hand including cranial plating. i die.
+3pyroblast, +2golgari charm, --2 hymn, -3 thoughtseize
G2 I race him with dual bloodbraids. He has either etched champion or master of etherium. I keep decaying masters and win in the end.
G3 he goes turn 1 land, drum, thopter, memnite or something. I T1 thoughtseize and see cranial plating. Yoink! Also champion though...
He topdecks another plating and beats me to 10 or something. I have t2 dark confidant and bolt for equipped creature when he attacks. He tries to cast Tezz, but i counter it with pyroblast and grows goyf.
In the end i am at 4 with Bob, Goyf and he is at 5, with untapped Champion to block.
If i reveal bloodbraid i am dead. I reveal wasteland - attack with both creatures and bolt him. Pwew!
3-1
R5 mono black
A good player (and judge i think) is piloting mono black with multitudes of discards, and bitterblossoms and abyssal persecutor.
I have p.fire engine going and destroys all he plays and beats him with bob i think.
G2 is the same.
4-1
R6 is against esper vial. A death and taxes, with robot owls, nemesis! and tidehollow sculler.
G1 i go Thoughtseize and takes stoneforge. He has owl, thalia, nemesis, land, batterskull and vial in play.
I get out an early bloodbraid which burns his owl. I play 2nd bloodbraid, and he vials in thalia so i cant cast the decay i cascaded into! :(
Then he fills his board with dudes and i die. Got to greedy and should have played controllish here.
+1 engineered plague, +2 golgari charm, +3 pyroblast, -2hymn, -4 goyf and some other stuff.
Now i see he doesnt play counters and also mother of runes!
G2 he goes turn 2 RIP, which is OK, since i boarded out Goyfs. I only ever draw DRS once in the end, but thats when he kills me. soo... yeah...
4-2
Great and fun games. I have to learn when to go control style. I was mostly dissapointed in the RUG matchup. I think the SB was nice, however never got to meet real death and taxes with my dread of nights..
Mongooses are also a pain and i think i might drop the plague and go +2 toxic deluge (even though i didnt want to at first). Being sure that you can empty creature boards is nice. -1/-1 is not enough and naming humans isnt as good against death and taxes anymore as it was before - since mangara is left out now. Mostly elemental and horror is the problem.
Dos anyone have experience with deluge yet?
props:
+ decay
+ p.fire
+ bloodbraid
+ siding out goyf
slops:
- whole sideboard, since i almost never draw any cards.
- -1/-1 effects are underwhelming.
Thanks for reading.
I can't see a single situation where you would want to have less than 4 Lightning Bolt.
Half the time you will be on the draw, and half that time you want to be able to murder their turn 1 play. This is imperative. Not to mention doing so on the play, before untapping.
Not only that, but sometimes you want to be able to kill their turn 2 play on the draw, and wasteland them.
Lightning Bolt cannot be cut. I realize people with more success than me have done so, but they are incorrect.
Combo. Bolt just sucks vs combo and control. Yes it has niche situations where you can finish them after an ad nauseum or grisly draw, but in general it is weak. So packing 2-3 hedges against those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
I do agree the card is great. I think 2-3 is the right number, and in this meta I'm see upping to 3 being correct. I like 3 PI, 3 bolt, 4 decay.
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Hey anybody has recently played in tournament? Does true-name nemesis decks cause bad problems? More golgari charms and rebs to sb needed?
I have only faced two decks with it, and countered the first (with reb, 1 of 3 in SB) and died to another one that i did not pick with Thoughtseize.Quote:
Originally Posted by fogxanic
I would say our deck is pretty safe against it;
TS and hymn discards it
Lily sacs him, if you can keep the rest of opponent's dudes away with bolts and decay
REB and Pyroblast in board (i would say 3-4 is max) counters him
Golgari charm as you say is neat too. I run 2
We have a ton of options to get rid of this guide and i am currently trying out Toxic deluge.
I'll be going to a larger tournament next week and expect to see him a lot there, so i will pack
3 pyroblasts, 2 charms, 2 deluge.
Anthony Lowry put up a primer on starcitygames.com :
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ject-Jund.html
I will read it when I get a moment, seems solid so far.
Also, about Bolt. I understand it can be less than useful in the control/combo match-ups, but think of this:
1) It takes about 15% of their life in a match-up where you have to race, in a match-up where you have to be the aggressive deck. For one mana, that is not trivial.
2) When it's good, it's really good, and it's so unbelievably necessary turn 1 against match-ups. Having a Lightning Bolt in your opening hand gives you a lot of percentage points against a lot of decks.
I need to analyze this a bit more, but I am reasonably sure that 4 is the correct count.
As for TNN, I have yet to see one played against me. I cannot imagine it to be a huge deal. As Neffy said, we are more stacked than any deck against it.
That being said, Golgari Charm is looking mroe and more like the solution to all our problems. Drew Levin was running 3 in his board for BUG, and I was impressed.
i am thinking this might be another 3-of in my sideboard, alongside REB and Surgical Extraction. It literally can do so much for so little.
Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
I'm a strong advocate of lightning bolt, like you are, and I'll read the primer you posted, just wanted to say that last tournament I played (two days ago) I sucked hard, always on the edge of winning, ended up losing, again a wild amount of stuffs, like, elves, after I kept his board clean for three turns but couldn't find a plague, and a nemesis vs bant which got equipped with a batterskull :rolleyes:
I started to ponder about cutting bolt for maindeck Golgari charm, also slaughther games in the sideboard because miracle and these damn angels are just so annoying...
anyone thought about toxic deluge? I agree the life loss is huge, but so is the effect...
Another thing I noticed playing without sensei's top, is that I cascade too often is useless spells, so, I think I'll start playing with one sylvan library and one top, jsut to see how it works.
Lastly, I was running 4 bolt 3 punishing 3 decay, depsite this, vs rug I wished I had 4 decay (even if, I must say he was luckY? he alwasy dropped two goyf at once during the three game we had, supported by 2 delver and 2 mongose, wtf...), so I still wonder about the quantity of our removal... Punishing fire is cool and all, but even when I was in control, It always took a year to close a game...
I wish we had some kind of mass removal, something like whip flare (which won't touch our creature) would just be perfetct :(
We do indeed have random cascade results, but the sylvan helps here. Our deck pack so much value cards that in most cases you're happy about the cascade result. I understand that running into an Abrupt Decay with no non-land permanents on the opponent's board is sad, but that rarely happens right? The cascaded bolt in his face is not optimal either, but if you balance your deck well enough you should see nice cascades most times you dont have sylvan online. For some reason i always cascade into goyfs.. but thats okay. I miss however a third Hymn to make that more likely to cascade into :) It's sad that our MD is so tightly packed :/Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimLavamancer
EDIT: on a side note, one should play safe and avoid said 'cascade into decay' situations by not casting BBE if there are no potential targets. This depends on whether you go the aggro or control way through the matchup.
The top vs. sylvan have been discussed some pages back if you do a search. Seemed like the conclusion was that sylvan always was better because of card draws.
I have always liked the idea of slaughter games , but in most cases it was neglected as it is very very slow. However I might agree with you that it could be handy against Miracles and their Entreats. The uncounterbility of it is so nice and they always take forever to get a game going anyways. Jace is not an issue if you keep in BBE or Burn, especially P.Fire as he never will grow then.
Im fearing the Miracle match up to night and the upcoming tournament this weekend, maybe Games could actually help this matchup?
it surely can help, since my opponent, which is a widely reknown italian miracle playe, directly ask me if I packed extra hate like S.Games for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
I would say though, that you need to run almost 2/3 copies of it to be effective, and sideboard is thight. Indeed I saw another jund player losing vs another miracle player since he didn't see it in time (they were like on turn 12) (but he sided just one copy of it and 2 maelstrom pulses, one of which were countered if I'm not mistaken)
SB is tight indeed, do you know the SB list? I am currently locked with 3 surgical, 3 pyroblast, 3 duress, 2 golgari charm and 4 flex spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimLavamancer
Did any of you guys play in the GP? I would love to hear a tournament report