Sirocco
Interesting choice.
Burn is definitely not a good matchup, that is unless they play bad like your opponents or you combo off early enough.
I'm curious, what card are you going to cut for the fourth Recruiter when you get it?
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Sirocco
Interesting choice.
Burn is definitely not a good matchup, that is unless they play bad like your opponents or you combo off early enough.
I'm curious, what card are you going to cut for the fourth Recruiter when you get it?
How many people are playing MB grave hate?
Pretty hard to beat SnT without it... even with bridges. Can't be attacking into a 7/7 lifelinker, nor wait to mill them with Emrakul.
I think I need a singleton gravehate card just to cover the bases. Was thinking 1 Relic MB/3 crypt side.
Yes I am playing the Mono Red version with a pretty standard list I will upload when I get a chance. @Kap n cook you said you never go below 5 blasts that is interesting thanks for that. And thank for the T1 Welder explanation which was another card I had questions about when to play it with artifacts in GY or not.
If you're only running 1 welder like a standard list I'd certainly be careful about tossing him to the wolves turn 1 since after that you have no recursion left in the deck. I run 3 (definitely not normal so take with a grain of salt) so seeing the first die makes me pretty happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jake556
I don't think it's that good of an idea. There's no way to tutor for it. If they're making you play it out after you Drop a bridge, assemble tons of blasts in hand with enough mana to pay for soft counters and resolve your jaya or koth. Good game sneak and showQuote:
Originally Posted by Ish
Got it. Yeah in the UR version it was easily tutored and/or welder'd for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Your strategy is what I figured game one might be for iPainter. Just make sure to resolve a jaya and ride her to victory.
SnT is obviously a big meta deck again, so just don't want to give away game 1.
I'm gonna try a whopping 3 MB bridge right now. Other than storm it seems like a free win game one against a lot if the field.
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In the list I'm currently working on, I have three MD Bridges and it has been boss thusfar. A fourth might be too greedy, but I'm not sold on the main deck yet, still three cards that I want to solidify. I'll share it soon.
And I also agree that one MD GY hate is not good. As mentioned, an SnT player might just scoop G1 to a resolved Bridge, as they have no other way to victory and Painter has inevitability. Otherwise, you have to play Draw Go until you can win like Kap'n said. There's just no way for SnT to win against a Bridge if it resolves game one.
Yep! You guys convinced me that MB GY hate is not the way to go. Which I really didn't want to make room for either. Thanks! This has to be one of the best and most interactive threads on the forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
However if SnT resolves a griselbrand they can't lose to beat down. Jaya and/or Koth are our only win cons. Otherwise draw-go will be won by an emrakul discard. We just have to make sure you have a few blast to jam one through.
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I have to say beating Burn twice in a row is quite a feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenklath
Congratulations on the good showing at GPDC.
Also it's probably right to bring in Thorn of Amethyst against Omni-Tell. I'v not played that match-up ever... but that would be my approach.
Thorn and Bridge hamper their game plan. At least a Thorn doesn't make Omniscience and Dream Halls a freeroll factory. I'd cut Grindstone and Blood Moon in that order.
Yeah that is true. But my logic on why you would want thorn is because Omni-tell is a three card combo so slowing down their cantrips seems benificial. Thorn seems to hit every part of their gameplan actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
You logic is sound. But I'd save any Blasts for the big spells themselves, or to protect a Thorn or two. I wouldn't waste them on cantrips or maybe even a Cunning Wish.
Okay gents, here's a short primer for Soviet Control. It's not a totally different build on iPainter, it's more focused on being pre sideboarded, really. It started from taking a standard main deck and throwing it in the air and what ever cards landed face up, they made the cut. The others were the ''wiggle room''. After that turned out to be a bad way at deck approach, I decided to look at iPainter's bad matchups and go from there. It's not that iPainter has many bad matchups, it's just that the ones that aren't fun are more common in any given tournament setting. To name a few: Emrakul Decks, Elves (especially Mono G), Burn, fast aggro like Goblins, Zoo (that no one plays anymore) and I'll even put UWr Delver here too (the archetype with lots of spot removal or disruption and cheap, efficient critters) Game ones were, in my experience, pretty much losses. I would side into a Mono Red Control deck and forego the Grindstone kill for either dork beatdowns or Painter/Jaya shenanigens.
Cards that made it into the main deck following this philosophy; Ensnaring Bridge, sweepers, Koth of the Hammer. These three create a built in secondary or terciary combo that will take over in the face of superior strategies. They work independantly from each other, and if combined in some fashion, plug any holes that other decks would normally exploit. On to the main deck.
8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
8 Sol lands
-Playing 20 lands because this is a control deck and it needs stability in its mana
The basics-
4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
6 Blasts (2 REB/4 Pyro)
3 Top
The Control Shell-
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sudden Demise
2 Koth of the Hammer
Recruiter Targets:
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
A.) Control Decks:
(Applies to: Miracles, Stoneblade, Landstill, Shardless BUG/BUG Control, etc.)
All of these decks, except Miracles, leans heavily on Basic lands, so Blood Moon is good. They all have reasonable stacks of removal but by large they're looking to go to the red zone to end the game. Otherwise, they'll try to Jace you, for which you have mad blasts. Bridge becomes better here because it allows you to play the draw go game to either assemble a hand to combo off with protection or you simply start nugging them with Jaya under a bridge. I feel good in these matchups. Stoneblade, however, can be problematic. They have hand disruption and counters, and Wasteland. Koth and Bridge are also boss in any situation, that could also be another out.
B.) Tempo Decks:
(Applies to: Team America, RUG Tempo/Canadian Threshold, UWr Delver, Merfolk, etc.)
Again, Blood Moon is great here. They are assuredly attacking for the win so Bridge is also nuts. UWr Delver is a tough matchup though. They have lots of counters, lots of spot removal, but are mostly dead to a resolved Bridge or Blood Moon. They can also operate on Blood Moon mana because they have Grim Lavamancers often enough. Watch out for Meddling Mage out of the board.
C.) Aggressive Creature Decks:
(Applies to: Zoo, Goblins, Burn, etc.)
Tough matchups. Mulligan to a Bridge or fast combo but be prepared for a removal in response to the Stone ability. Sweepers are nice, and Blood Moon isn't so strong here.
D.) Midrange Creature Decks:
(Applies to: Maverick, Junk, B/x Discard, Death & Taxes, Jund, Nicfit, etc.)
While they utilize more basics than most, Moons are good because their non basics are utility lands vital to their own strategies. They're also attacking for the win, so Bridges shine. A lot easier than the aggressive creature decks because they're slower and you have inevitability.
E.) Small Creature Combo Decks:
(Applies to: Elves, Painter Servant, Dredge, etc.)
Tough, but winnable. Elves isn't the match for a Grindstone kill, as somewhere in the 75 they likely have Progenitus or Emrakul. I can't speak for the mirror but you play the deck too, so just try to out draw them and stay ahead.
F.) Big Creature/Show and Tell Combo Decks:
(Applies to: OmniShow, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, etc.)
Tough. Here's why you preboard bridges. Here's why your alternate wincons are main deck.
G.) Combo Decks:
(Applies to: ANT, TES, High Tide, etc.)
Slap a Thorn down first thing and know your matchup. Get a painter down too to counterblast their important spells and then mill them.
H.) Prison Decks:
(Applies to: MUD/Stax/Chalice Aggro/Lands, etc.)
Just kill them fast. Chalices will be annoying If you play against Lands, just rejoice and windmill slam a Blood Moon. They do play basics, but you should have ample time to go off from there.
The Sideboard
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
1 REB
1 Sudden Demise
1 Jaya
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Sideboarding Guide
A)Using your best judgement, the first thing I would side out are Moons for the decks running ample basic lands. In come your Revokers, and a Vandal for their artifacts. I'd shave a Magus, too, for an extra Jaya. They will likely burn the first one out, so a back up has always been good to me.
B)Moons are hot, so is the main deck. Sudden Demise will kill Nimble Mongoose should they get one down before you can plop a Moon on the table. Revokers are also good, but there's not much from the main deck I'd want to shave. You can drop your Koths for extra Blast/Demise/Bridge/Revokers. the Maindeck is geared to cover these bases so there's not much to it really.
C) Out go koth, in go the extra Bridge and Demise. You can sweep a whole board with a Painter out. Mulligan to a Bridge, or a good control hand, and keep casting spells they need to deal with to eat up their resources. Against Burn, side out all four Moons, Magus can still block stuff, for a Bridge, Demise, and two Revokers (for Lavaman, Hellspark Elemental, stuff)
D) Maindeck is good here. Use your best judgement to what you need to supplement your MD with from the sideboard. Shave cards for what you bring in, I would't side out a whole set of cards.
E) Elves: In 1 Bridge 1 Demise 4 Cage Out 2 Koth 4 Moon. Welders keep your stuff in play when they go for a Viridian Shaman or whatever. Cages are awesome here, as they stop GSZ, Fetch for Dryad, and Natural Order. Cast multiple copies of your artifacts because it'll suck to have them destroy your one bridge and then Craterhoof for the win.
Mirror: Side out Moons for Revokers and a Vandal.
Dredge: Moons for Cages. Mull to get one.
F) Maindeck is also suited for the matchups. Supplement MD with sideboard cards by shaving MD cards to your best judgement.
G) Moons out for Thorns and a Revoker or two. Revoker LED or Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal. Blast their cantrips or hold on to them if you have a Painter out, for their tutors.
H) Race. Revokers are good here, and Manic Vandal is too. Swap the moons for them.
I want to add to this post, so maybe we can front page it?
Discuss!
I joined a tournament yesterday, 7 rounds for top 16, the result is a little disappointing. I got 17th with 4-2-1.
I prepared a lot for elves, dnt and other random aggro decks like goblins, but I did not meet any one of them. My meta is heavily blue, but unfortunately I only met one blue based aggro-control deck in the last round, which was too late for me.
here is a brief report：
2-0 vs Jund
Nothing to say, ground him out game 1. resolved blood moon game 2.
1-2 vs burn
He is the only person running burn yesterday. I lost game two and three with mutiple tombs in hand
1-1 vs reanimator
Game one he comboed out very quickly. game two I ground him out with mutiple bridges, revokers and relic
2-1 vs dredge
He is a rookie, so I was really fortunate
0-2 vs jund
Mana screwed in game one. Resolved an early blood moon, while he landed basics...
2-1 vs Sneakshow
he is my team mate, I mulled to five in game one and beat him with 2 weenie. Then I got crushed in game two. Game three I revoked his sneak attack, attacked for the win. I did not draw a single bridge vs him.
2-1 vs esper blade
I resolved blood moon in three games while he drew 8 basic within these 3 games. I was dead if he played correctly in game 3
the largest mistake I made yesterday was that I should take an aggressive mulligan in game 3 vs Reanimator when time was run out.
Nearly every single game was really really tough. If my meta become more hostile to IP, I may consider switching to other decks for a while.
Watched the tournament yersterday. AFAIK, this is the biggest legacy event in Beijing(50+ players).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
You played well, but had very bad luck. Saw you keep meeting red decks again and again, while the other tables were crowed with blue decks like...Blade, Miracles, BUG and "North Korea".
How do you think about your sideboard decision?
@jandax per the "primer"
First: overall nice job. Would be nice to update the front page based on the current meta.
Per the deck name: I still think its imperial painter. Getting to cute with names just confuses people. Imperial painter at its heart is a lockdown stompy deck with a combo win. Especially if we want to update the first page.
Typos: the artifact land is Great Furnace, and those tempo decks don't have a lot of basics :). Prob a few others I'm missing.
Card choices:
-did you miss the MB moons?
-I don't like MB sweepers. I just rely on fast combo and spot removal game 1. Fast combining aggro is still the bast option game 2 as well. Why muddy the deck with sweepers to stall the game over just winning. This is also why I advocate some type of bolt (I prefer magma jet) to kill critters and smooth draws.
-SIdeboard:
-elves is far from unwinnable. I actually have a positive record against both mono green and Gb. They almost can't beat a bridge, stick more than one and/or a welder; GG. Therefore I hate the 4 grafdigger's cages. Get some crypts in that SB. I will not fold the combo to Emrakul decks... And crypt still crushes GY decks.
-artifact removal; there's nothing to deal with chalice here. I have all too many times played against chalice. You have to have more than a single out to it. Manic vandal, shattering spree, ratchet bomb; so many good answers which also have dual purpose. Shattering spree also answers an equipped nemesis which is a real clock! We can race a 3/1 but a 7/5 or jitte'd progenifish is pretty quick to end the game.
Hers what I currently have sleeved up for my input
Deck: legacy - Imperial Painter.dec
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:17
1 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells:23
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Magma Jet
4 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
Lands:20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
Sideboard:15
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Shattering Spree
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer
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Oh that's a gross typo, thought I had those in there, gonna edit now
Now on to answer your questions:
I do have a manic vandal in the side for Chalice and other stuff. I am also relying on Bridge to cover more ground and prevent equipment from getting into the red zone in the first place, thus negating its advantage and freeing sideboard space up. Plus there is always Painter plus Jaya to get rid of a Chalice in a pinch.
I called it Soviet Control because that's awesome, and fitting. A rose by any other name...
And regarding Elves, I dunno who you're playing against or what builds they have, but I have never had any luck in the matchup. Even mouth breathing tards who forget to untap Sentinals and draw off of Visionary have an oops-I-win match against me with Painter. I don't want a three card combo in order to win. Red has plenty of game against 1/1s, Ensnaring Bridge is MVP, but the real problem is you have to have it in hand at the start and you only get a turn or two, maybe three, before they go off. That's max two or three main phases to land a Bridge, which they'll just GSZ for artifact removal, poop out a Craterhoof and that's that. The way I need to play to win, or at least how I feel I need to play, is that I have to stall their early game by sweeping a few dorks off the board, sticking a Cage to prevent them from digging stuff up, and then continuously add to the board Bridges or Revokers until I can close the game out in a prison-control fashion. I'm assuming they're going off turn two or three every game, which they more often than not do. No time to durdle around with a three card combo. And Cage is tits in other matchups, too.
Now that I screwed the primer maindeck list up by forgetting Blood Moon (which I have corrected) I want to find room for Welder again. It might be that I have a chubby for Koth, and I am trying to be objective about it.
I agree your SB is better against elves, but I still think no crypt is lacking against emrakul decks. Maybe there's a split that's is better.
I was also playing UR Painter for a bit, and finding bridge fast (3+1 of in the 75) was very easy. And 4 welder laughed at artifact removal.
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I really like your list Jandax. It's something I definitely want to test!
Thanks! I wouldn't fault you for running a Goblin Welder as a 61st card in your testing...:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stils1
@Ish
Dude, UR painter is a totally different animal. Obv it was easier to find whatever you could want with Brainstorms and Ponders and the like.
It isn't that I had given up on Emrakul matches. I just think it is wiser to switch gears on them, and play more to their weaknesses than iPainter's strengths. I sure hope you can prove me wrong, because until I find room for the two Welders I want, I'm sticking with Cages and I'm not going over 60 cards.
Yeah it is different. I've played many more games with mono red, but elves wasn't as popular. I still relied on bridge when playing mono red though, and didn't feel like it was an unfavorable matchup. We can still go off turn 2 with a nuts draw as well... They are probably a little more consistent though.
That's also another reason for bolt effects MB. Killing a few essential critters can be crippling to elves.
I can see your point with cage, but I won't go to 0 crypt. I'm going to try a 3 cage/1 crypt split. That still gives me the out to SnT via mill.
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