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Thanks. I also just re-watched the Wilkerson vs. Fox match where it was this match-up and it looked like the main key is post-board to either go for the combo or sculpt the hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by luudes
Why not leave the force in and cut a halls. This is mainly coming from inexperience and the wisdom of cutting a halls against Daze decks not being the worst. (If my questions are making it blatantly obvious, me and sideboards have a very hateful relationship.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavaki
I think you kinda answered your own question. As you mention you want an opener that facilitates great sculpting or a fast combo. If you want a fast combo then you want all 4 dream halls. SnT dream halls EtI and blue card is pretty good. When you are sculpting your hand you want the combo and interaction or you want multiple SnT or dream halls to throw at their counterspells, they will only have so many hard counters. so if the clock isnt that bad you can reasonably expect to create one of these game states.
Could you maybe share your decklist with us? I'd like to compare both yours and mine. I would be happy to post mine too but I dunno how to tag here to see the cards names blue and the art visible - some help needed here :P
For the time being (as in I'm still learning), I've been using the opening list except I am on 4 cities and 6 fetches.
Actually one more thing, and its in regards to a part of the OP.....
In there, Lejay recommends going on the draw against an unknown opponent or in a non-race match up (Being Dredge, Elfball and SnT), does this line of thought still hold true?
No i do not agree with ever going second with this deck. If you are concerned about card number in your match consider fewer FoW and more PoN. For the decks you named I disagree except perhaps the mirror. You have no way to intereact with dredge and they can kill you on there T4 consistently (your t3). My only loss in the swiss of SCG oak was to manaless dredge. I would have comboed him the next turn the two games I lost. and the thing about dredge is they will want to be on the draw perhaps (if manaless) so if you dont know the specific build they are playing you could make the wrong decision. I would want to draw against manaless (because that effectively time walks them) and on the play vs LED dredge. There might be an argument for being on the draw versus elves G1 but never post board where they have 6 discard spells. And if you dont have force for there natural order you might be dead on T3 to elves.
Choosing to be on the draw is fancy play syndrome at its worst. One of the deck's biggest weaknesses is being relatively slow when it comes to combo decks, and it's hard enough getting Dream Halls to resolve against a Daze/Spell Pierce deck on the play.
I found this list very interesting:
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Intuition
4 Omniscience
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Defense Grid
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Swamp
3 Swan Song
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
I wasnt planning on doing the whole, "Go second" thing, its just something you never hear of outside of manaless dredge, so it caught my eye as something weird.
@VeniVediVici: That list is weird. The Ulamog in the side intrigues me a bit, as well as the Gifts. How interesting.
Edit: After reading the blog, I see where the gifts and Ulamog come in now. Im a bit worried about opening the manabase to wasteland, but it seems interesting enough that I wouldnt be surprised to see something like this do well.
So you replace a Show and Tell analogue with more cards that are dependent on your 4 copies of Show and Tell. This sounds like an excellent idea. While it's interesting to note that Gifts ~= Enter the Infinite with an Omni in play (at least in g1, since in g2 they might actually play yard hate), without it in play it's actually just as dead. You can't tell me with a straight face that your plan vs discard is to get to 4 mana to gifts for cantrips. Gifts cannot actually find the one card the deck needs to win the game (Show and Tell). Further, adding results in far more life-dependent draws (another thing Dream Halls avoids). Besides that whole missing an extra enabler and being more life dependent part, missing Cunning Wish is actually a pretty big deal as well. Wish->FF/Trickbind is a huge play for the deck when attempting to beat hate. It's nice that the list was thoughtful enough to include Ulamog as answers to problems that other lists simply don't have (RtA or R&D).
As an aside, how does playing Dream Halls have anything at all to do with losing counterwars to Spell Pierce? The alternative to casting Dream Halls isn't to draw copies 5-8 of Show and Tell. It's to attempt to find Show and Tell or do nothing. In any event, if you were playing with the appropriate numbers of Wishes, Pact of Negations, and Flusterstorms to begin with, losing counterwars to Spell Pierce decks would never actually happen.
@emidln: Where do you play? I ask due to your location and the fact that im in NoVa somewhat regularly.
Anyway, I dont think its his deck. Looking at where he got the deck, its from Jarvis Yu's blog where he says a player named Cifka plays it on MTGO. Im assuming this is Stanislav Cifka's brew of the deck then (although with my luck, I am likely wrong.)
The list is quite interesting - I've tried something like this and it was very fragile. You lose often because you didn't find Show and Tell or you got hit by surgical in s&t that got countered and it's gg. Dream Halls are always plan b in this situation. If I would ever splash black now it would be for some mass removal for white bears (if this new Spirit of the Labirynth will make d&t matchup very bad)
it is the Stanislav Cifka (aka obv on MTGO).Quote:
Originally Posted by kavaki
It's not a 'plan' to Gifts for cantrips, but when your hand is under attack and you can't assemble a 3-card combo, you'd rather have a card you can actually cast than a card that costs 12 mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
The point about Ulamog is cute but the card isn't necessary to address those problems. You could just play a bounce spell or w/e.
It's clear how playing a 5-mana sorcery-speed spell has something to do with losing to conditional countermagic? In any case, Dream Halls and Griselbrand work very nicely together, so I could see a UB list with Thoughtseize and Lim-Dul's Vault. You get SB Massacre or whatever for Thalia/Spirit, the discard spells are great against other S&T decks and most of the anti-S&T SB cards.
The beauty of the deck is that it strictly limits on the number of "business" spells for a 3-card combo deck. Enter the Infinite / Omniscience obviously isn't castable. Dream Halls is clunky to cast, obviously still a valid option. Cunning Wish is often very clunky and doesn't find anything you need or it takes multiple turns. Having a combo deck that has a very proactive plan (discards) is why I think this deck is extremely good. Gifts Ungiven is basically an Enter the Infinite that you can cast if needed to find multiple pieces of protection.
I've played the Mono-U version for a very long time but failed to made it adaptable to the current meta. It doesn't handle multiple permanent based threats very well. Especially in the UWR matchup of Meddling Mage / Counter Magic, as well as Death and Taxes.
This deck is genius, simple, and smooth. Obviously created in the hands of Stanislav Cifka.
Unless you happen to be facing Tormod's Crypt, Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, or any other graveyard disruption. Then Gifts isn't actually the same as Enter the Infinite, as it does literally nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessenator
Dream Halls is clunky to cast, but actually does win the game. It also provides an actual guaranteed two card kill, an alternate SnT target that wins instantly, and additional enablers beyond the 4 SnT, 1 Intuition. It's also an alternate show and tell target that wins instantly. In the suggested Ub list, you need Show and Tell AND Omniscience AND a business spell. Griselbrand is a conditional business spell. Gifts Ungiven is a conditional business spell. Intuition is a conditional business spell. Griselbrand is conditional on life (which is likely to be low with the discard and general lack of acceleration in the deck letting opponents enter the red zone about as often as they do against Mono-U). Gifts and Intuition are conditional on Deathrite Shaman (one of the most played cards in the format), not being active (or any other graveyard disruption).
Discard is very good right now. Playing discard doesn't require sacrificing a consistent and redundant core. It doesn't require sacrificing the ability for Cunning Wish to answer permanents that slip through the cracks of your discard or things that come into play off your Show and Tell.
Hey emidln, I agree with your points. There are I think pros and cons to every Show and Tell deck in a meta. And I think each should be analyzed before throwing the deck into a meta. I definitely don't think Sneak Attack is actually good in a meta with a good amount of Death and Taxes, it's just generalized as the "go to" Show deck, so people play it because it's already established its dominance. These lesser known decks may be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
But about the deck, I think Griselbrand is a good enough win-con since you can just draw some cards, hope to hit some discard / FoW to strip their hand after you go off. I'm not sure if you absolutely need the loop to win the game. If they side in GY hate against you, then what can you do? It make their deck less consistent and more clunky and it only shuts off the Gifts Ungiven loop which you don't need to win. Having a deck that's 100% all in Show and Tell is dangerous, but I think the results may pay off. I think using Cunning Wish to deal with hate may be inefficient, since it does cost a ton of mana, but it's still effective. I haven't tested extensively w/ this deck yet but I think the results will be better than I expect. Maybe even better than when I played MonoU OmniTell.
The silence in this thread makes me sad."(
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Well... We want to stay in the shadows :P btw if someone faced Spirit of the Labirynth already pls share your thoughts about this one :)
Ive been playtesting vs spirit and its just like gaddock teeg 2. We cant run enter the infinite so that leaves is us with the wish>call>emrakul plan.
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Some news from me: I've been toying with my sideboard and the results are: no pongify or rapid hybridization and spell snare but 3x Massacre plus one Underground Sea instead. It was pretty sweet against d&t. In theory it helps against UWR but I haven't tested this matchup yet. Still need some testing :)
Adding massacre i the sideboard..ive never thought of that! Nice! Gives me a slightly better matchup vs dnt /mavs with their thalias/canonists. Still an issue with Teeg tho but nonetheless. Will look into it! Thanks!
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