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I'm running the standard list (2 Tombstalker, 1 Library, 1 Liliana), and I'm going to test -2 Tombstalkers, -1 Library (+1 Library in the board) for 3 Treasure Cruise. It should at least prove interesting; it's always at least fun to test potentially good new cards.
I don't think you'd ever want to tap out on turn three for Treasure Cruise. I assume that the best use of the Cruise is as the last card in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
So here's the question: do you really think that Treasure Cruise on turn 5 is going to be worth as much as Tombstalker on turn 3 in terms of actual victories?Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
The problem I have with Treasure Cruise is that the second one you draw is never going to be much more than Force fodder. This makes having 3 of them in the list problematic. The first one isn't going to solve any problems for you until the game state is advanced enough that holding onto it for all that time has been a negative factor overall.
How is holding Treasure Cruise for 4 or 5 turns going to be superior to actually playing a Ponder on turn 3 to get the thing you need or to shuffle away the dreck you'd draw otherwise? How is it going to be superior to using Ponder on turn 1 or 2 to fix a draw that lacks just one thing and would be only a marginal keep without Ponder? 2 lands in your opening hand and the opponent has a Wasteland and you'd be struggling despite all the business you drew without Ponder.
Ok, then try to fit Brainstorm, Ponder and Treasure Cruise in a BUG list and not wind up short on business too often as a result.
The first two cards listed are fixers that you can look at alongside other cards in your hand and make the adjustment for what is missing. The third is card advantage late but it can't be used to fix the hand or account for things that might be missing. That's why I think people will wind up tapping out for Treasure Cruise often as soon as they can and despite the game state. It's going to be sitting as an amorphous card advantage device in their hand at the expense of real value and the pressure is going to be heavy to realize that advantage and hope the tap out is not a critical problem.
I've been looking at Treasure Cruise and wondering if it's the replacement for Brainstorm. It's sorcery speed and it's arguably stronger card advantage however that's all it is: card advantage. If Brainstorm were to go away Treasure Cruise is one of the cards people would look hard at to try to replace the value.
You're not really thinking of replacing Brainstorm, are you? This makes me cry... :cry:
@Topic: I don't think an argumentation, in which Treasure Cruise is a bad card, because players do play it bad, will help any further. I like the comparation with Stalker though. No one needs to play this card desperately on turn 3, although there might be situations where tapping out early might be the best play. In the lategame this card get's (based on my initial testing ~ 30 games) so much value, it's crazy. Against Miracles f.e. it's so much better than a Stalker, finding additional threats (because often, it doesn't matter if you play Goyf/Stalker/Delver/...) and cards (what makes the difference against control^^). Drawing lands isn't a problem either, as it makes your lategame Brainstorms to Recalls. I think Treasure Cruise will find its home as a 1-2 of in Team America variants, making an all time star and demon sadly fade out ;)
I'd never replace Brainstorm. It's the best card in the format and a primary reason to play blue multicolor lists.
I think you're right that Treasure Cruise will find it's place as a 1-of in a lot of lists. That's where the value is, as a late game reloader that gives you some play when top deck draw-go is the alternative. If you're not running JtMS you should put him in first though. He gives you play and he wins games when he resolves in a stalemate.
The only Khans card that seems potentially likely to slot into BUG Delver is the 4B kill spell with Delve, imo, and only as a replacement for Dismember in the lists running that. Nothing else jumps out as bonkers enough to make the cut.
Greetings All!
Dragonslayer_90 and I played some legacy locals again this week. We both ended up in the money. I think he ended 4th and I ended 5th (I think 5th was the last place for payout; alas tiebreakers). He has been trolling around playing some non-BUG Delver decks... I am glad he is having success and learning other decks, but I am still very happy with BUG Delver. Here is my list for reference.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
I have really been happy with the maindeck comprised of cards that are "never potentially dead" when playing an unknown opponent. Shaving maindeck Disfigure and Spell Pierce really makes the deck feel very proactive without losing much ground in any particular match up. I played against Dan with 12Post, winning (2-0); Brendan with Merfolk, losing (1-2); Ian with Miracles, winning (2-0), and Tom with Oops All Spells, winning (2-1). After my rant a week or so ago it is worth mentioning that I only lost to Oops All Spells as I could not draw a hand with a colored source in Game 1 until my 4 card hand... sometime that happens and sometimes they will get ya.
I will say probably the best thing that I got to do was resolve Zur's Weirding against both my 12Post opponent and my Miracles opponent. It was absolutely back-breaking for them. They were forced to pay life to keep from giving me good cards, quickening my clock; while I was able to keep them off of win conditions or ways to stabilize. I was thoroughly impressed with the card. Both opponents actually seems to enjoy the Weirding subgame of saying yes or no to any given draw even if it did hose them. I was a bit iffy about this card as a sideboard choice; however, if you expect Miracles and/or combo decks that don't really come after you life total (12Post, High Tide, Sneak and Show, Omnishow, maybe some flavors of storm) this card is really worth checking out.
I would like to take a second to chime in on some items from Khans of Tarkir. Everyone seems to be looking at the following cards:
Murderous Cut
Hooting Mandrills
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
Murderous Cut is probably going to see some Legacy play as it give our deck a means to kill creatures like Griselbrand and other non-Emrakul, the Aeons Torn-fattys that Abrupt Decay can't. I don't think it is an outright replacement for Disfigure in our current shell as we will not be able to reliably cast it on turn 1-2. As for its distinction from Dismember, they both will have situations were each is superior. Time and metagame variation will probably determine which you should run.
Hooting Mandrills is interesting but our deck probably isn't in the market for a trampling 4/4 for a :g:. I think that is a great price but what are you going to cut for it? Goyf is usually bigger and more easily and consistently cast. It also makes a higher percentage of your threats soft in some manner to graveyard hate.
Treasure Cruise is the card that I see as the most interesting. I am not going to claim that it is an auto-4-of... but Drawing 3 cards for :u: is awesome (see Ancestral Vision... it has an entire deck built around it, TC is more flexible). Who cares if you don't get to do it until turn 4-5. As for diluting your deck, many lists are running a few weird flex cards already (see Sylvan Library and Dimir Charm in my list above). The connection people seem to be failing to understand between Treasure Cruise and Tombstalker is a fundamental one. Tombstalker is a permanent and is terribad in multiples, while Treasure Cruise is a spell and meh to okay in multiples. This means a cast Cruise is +1 for your next Cruise delve. Also if it resolves, you are drawing three cards which can be spent quickly (if even needed) to facilitate another Cruise. The way I see it is that a Cruise should normally get you to +2-4 for your next Cruise. If you only play 2-3 enabling them should be easy. The problem will be they are going to be poor in the face of grave hate.
Dig Through Time I am not too excited about. Intuition is probably just better in almost every case. There maybe be dedicated control decks (BUG and Miracles [with no RIP]) that can take advantage of searching for a particular answer plus any additional card. I don't see it being super great in our deck though. As usual thanks for reading!
This is exactly the question that will need answering. As I see it the list has about four flexible slots, usually some combination of Liliana, Sylvan Library, and 2 threats (either Tombstalker, TNN, or Dark Confidant). If one does want to add Treasure Cruise without cutting threats, Tombstalker will need to be replaced with either TNN or Vendilion Clique. I could try -2 Tombstalkers, -1 Library for +2 Treasure Cruise, +1 Clique.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Here's the question you need to ask, would you rather play a turn 5 Treasure Cruise or a JtMS?
That's a misleading question - first, it assumes that you're binning exactly 1 card/turn and tapping out for Treasure Cruise. Second, it totally ignores the fact that you have the option of playing one or more of the spells you draw off of TC - or even another spell before it - if you've been able to put enough cards in the graveyard to Delve for more.
Treasure Cruise, because I rarely have 2UU, but I very often have 1U and 6 cards in grave. It allows you to both refuel and deploy threats on the same turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer
I tested a 6 game set in the mirror (just what my friend had on him) and got a good feel for the card. My list was the same as from Columbus (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=68947), -1 Tombstalker, -1 Clique, -1 Library, -1 Pierce for +3 Cruise and +1 land (I've been feeling better with 20 lately).
Every turn after turn 3, it was the exact card I was hoping to draw. Most mid/late games (turn 4+) I could have cast two for the full Delve on the same turn. The couple times I did draw it, I was able to just completely dominate. For example, one game we jockeyed back and forth with Hymn - on the play, he Hymned me with Deathrite in play. I hid my Hymn and a cantrip with a Brainstorm. I Hymned him. He passed, I Decayed Deathrite. I dropped Goyf, he Decayed it. I Delvecestral'd and dropped a Delver and a Deathrite. He lost.
I was paying attention, and only rarely would I have been able to cast Jace (it's difficult to keep UU in the Wasteland mirror, much less 4 mana), and if I did, most of the time it would just be bouncing a Goyf then Brainstorming. I'm not sure that's better than drawing 3 then killing Goyf or playing your own on the same turn.
I don't see why you guys would run Treasure Cruise.
1. It kills our DRS
2. It kills our goyfs
3. we don't run Probes to fill the gy faster
4. we become even more dependent on the graveyard as we already are.
This is an easy question in most cases but if you're digging for an answer to something the Treasure Cruise might be better. That's because JtMS won't save you against multiple creatures and you won't be able to cast your sweeper the turn you play him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer
I agree that putting Treasure Cruise into a list that does not already include JtMS is probably not a good choice. There are few things that BUG can do on turn 4 or 5 that are as potent as resolving JtMS.
The cards do different things, and have vastly different costs. Even casting Jace is not something this deck is set up to do (2 Bayous + 4 Wasteland is a good clue), much less protecting him (no Strix, only 4-5 removal spells).Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Ancestral Recall is something every blue deck is set up to do. If your cards are good, more of them is better. It's really that simple. Using Wasteland helps cast Treasure Cruise. Using Wasteland hurts casting Jace. Trading off creatures and spells does nothing for Jace. It actively fuels Treasure Cruise. Do you see a difference here?
If you're not playing Goyf and DRS I definitely see a positive difference. If you're playing both you really would be better off adding the singleton Jace and knowing that you had a real answer for the long game in the list. BUG Delver goes to control mode a lot more often than RUG does and almost as often as Patriot.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Drawing a Goyf or DRS off of a suddenly empty yard isn't promoting as much value as it seems.
By the time you're in the mid/late game, your opponent's yard is probably sufficient. Unless you're both on the treasure cruise plan, then it still helps because you get more cards, and more men, and you build a bigger board. I'm not sold yet either, but I'm not going to dismiss it before I give it a decent chance to prove itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Didn't a lot of people think playing deathrite and goyf together was going to be nonsense and horrible too? (I realize that 1 vs X to 7 cards being removed is a big difference, but you see what I'm saying).
Treasure Cruise will be worth testing but it makes us weaker against almost every other blue list out there. We're one of the few blue lists that play both Goyf and DRS and both will suffer from playing Treasure Cruise and from the opponent's Treasure Cruises.
BUG Control will get more benefit from Treasure Cruise than we do because most of those lists forgo the Goyfs. RUG will get more benefit from it than we do because almost all of those lists forgo DRS. Patriot will get the best bump from it because no Goyf and no DRS and they're most often in the controlling mode as it is, the mode that Treasure Cruise really helps.
The lists that Treasure Cruise is really going to help are UG Infect and Miracles. It's like a dream card for both lists. UG Infect because they fill their yard extremely fast and their main weakness is how hard it is to reload if you can answer them early. Miracles because they go so long that Treasure Cruise will be a perfect draw for them with the added benefit of removing fodder for DRS - which is a card they hate.
RUG can't play Treasure Cruise because they run fewer lands than we do, don't run Liliana (who provides a more or less constant stream of cards in graveyard), and they probably wouldn't be able to keep Goose Threshed after Delving.
Oy. It's surprising how much people want to dismiss this card.
* Tarmogoyf is a threat regardless of Delve. Your opponent still has a graveyard, and it's easy enough to preserve one card type if you're Delving and need that card type to buff Goyf. If Delve made Tarmogoyf appreciably worse, then no one would be running Tombstalker in the same deck.
* Deathrite Shaman can still eat spells in the opponent's graveyard. Also, if you've drawn three cards, it's easy to start refilling your own yard.
* Jace doesn't flip Delver of Secrets. Treasure Cruise does. This card can be played earlier than Jace and has a less restrictive color cost. Jace draws you one card; this draws you three.
* Nimble Mongoose has been lagging for a while, so I wouldn't be surprised if RUG lists dropped some or all copies for Treasure Cruise and either True-Name Nemesis or more burn spells. The BURG deck has a lot in common with RUG and would love to jam Treasure Cruise.
* A lot of decks will be playing either Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. No one is saying that BUG Delver will be the deck to best utilize these cards, only that the cards are good.
Of Delver variants, BUG will probably be the happiest with Cruise. My point above wasn't that Cruise was bad, it's that RUG is a bad home for it and that BUG has several aspects that make it quite useble. I can't comment on Mongoose vs. Treasure Cruise in RUG because I've never played RUG, but the cards do want opposing things, and it seems that making RUG an attractive home for Cruise would fundamentally alter the deck by slowing it down.
I actually think UWR would probably like Treasure Cruise the most. It doesn't care about it's graveyard at all on top of having all those cheap removal spells to throw.