[Primer] Eldrazi Stompy

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

yup. thorn buys you one turn, while getting an delver swing or shaman drain in the meanwhile. that certainly is not impressive. if you get wastelanded while having a thorn i play, you really look silly. if they cant wasteland, you are just a better aggro deck. especially with the 4 caverns

rachet bomb is just an all star in a lot of matches. elves, storm, belcher etc

how whould your deck solve the back to basics problem, after you board gets plowed our terminused?

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Im glad you made that comment about Ratchet Bomb, I've been finding it very underwhelming but I haven't faced any EtW decks and very few mentors decks, which the latter is very surprising because my LGS is FILLED with Miracles players.

I'm going to be playing your decklist tonight noloam, are you liking the Endbringers much? They feel a tad slow to me, so I've gone down to 1 in my list but currently that's my only change to your main 60. Any comments on that card in particular?

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

Im glad you made that comment about Ratchet Bomb, I've been finding it very underwhelming but I haven't faced any EtW decks and very few mentors decks, which the latter is very surprising because my LGS is FILLED with Miracles players.

I'm going to be playing your decklist tonight noloam, are you liking the Endbringers much? They feel a tad slow to me, so I've gone down to 1 in my list but currently that's my only change to your main 60. Any comments on that card in particular?

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i also had my doubts about the bomb. untill miracles started to play a big hate package moon/bridge/moat/back2basics

well the endbringer thing is more of a local thing, that we agreed upon. Endbringer is slow. but it is a card that can steal games. And get you back from unwinnable possitions. it shoots dow strix all day. i had 2 endbringers in play against shardless lately, that was just fireworks. Im not saying it is the perfect list. perhaps it should be 4 reshaper and 1 endbringer. But im not really sold on the reshaper dude. Endbringer is also really fun to play. It prevents the eldrazi deck from becoming a boring deck in the long run :P

im now testing 2 city of traitors in the list. after my talkt with h0cusp0cus, i wanted to test 1 tower of the magistrate. against stoneforge and strix.

@NoLoam
@Barook

Why don't you create a sideboard guide for top5/top10 tier decks?
so that we can compare colorless strategy vs WG strategy

Not only a +2 sphere - 2reshaper...but a list explaining the reason...like "reshaper does nothing against miracles as they only remove, not kill...and sphere is nuts against all their spells"
[silly example...I know]

Cheers
the_goat

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Originally Posted by the_goat

@NoLoam
@Barook

Why don't you create a sideboard guide for top5/top10 tier decks?
so that we can compare colorless strategy vs WG strategy

Not only a +2 sphere - 2reshaper...but a list explaining the reason...like "reshaper does nothing against miracles as they only remove, not kill...and sphere is nuts against all their spells"
[silly example...I know]

Cheers
the_goat

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Miracles:

- 3 reshaper (no vallue)
-3 simian spirit guide (blow outs into terminus dont work)
-2 city of traitors (this is an early game card)
-2 jitte (you dont want to draw both in the late game, it is still fine vs mentor, clique and snappy)


+ 2 rachet bomb (catch all vs hate)
+ 1 needle (vs top and jace)
+ 4 thorn (same as the sphere reason)
+ 1 all is dust (against a overloaded board of mentor tokens, a jace, and mostly against bloodmoon and moat)
+ 1 karakas
+ 1 endbringer (good fatty)

i keep in 1 dismember vs mentor builds over a reshaper

bug/rug delver decks:

nothing


grixis delver:


nothing


eldrazi decks:

my build is horrible vs the mirror

-4 chalice (no targets)


+1 endbringer
+2 rachet bomb (against endless one)
+1 karakas


elves:

-2 sower (Bit to slow)
-1 dismember (too much damage, you can get raced afterwards if you have an ancient tomb)
-1 matter reshaper (mediocre)

+2 all is dust (if you thoughknot their glimpse or NO, you slow them down and can flush their board afterwards)
+2 rachet bomb (catches all)


ANT:

-4 reshaper (too slow)
-2 sower (too slow)
-2 dismember (no targets)
-2 jitte (too slow)


+4 thorn (obvious)
+4 leyline (gets pif, cabal therapy and cabal ritual)
+2 rachet bomb (gets empty mainly, but can clean up their leds and petals. if they are scared for chalice and play them before chalice hits the board)


D&T:


-4 chalice ( it gets flickerwisped and only catches swords and vial. They board out the moms after boarding ofcourse)


+1 needle (against wasteland, vial, mangara, stoneforge)
+2 all is dust (is an o-k strategy. but sometimes it wont work, because you are in magic christmasland before you have 7 mana against them, they have thalia, port and wasteland)
+1 karakas (to escape the wasteland screw and bouce Thalia)


Shardless bug:

-3 spirit guide (no vallue)


+2 all is dust (cleans the board after a stalemate)
+1 endbringer

im still not very sure about this

sneak attack

- 3 reshaper (mediocre)
- 2 dismember (no good targets)
- 2 jitte (to slow)

+1 karakas
+ 1 needle (on sneak attack)
+ 4 thorn (slows their whole gameplan down while beating them in the meanwhile)
+1 endbringer

lands

-2 jitte (does nothing)
-2 dismember (no targets)
-1 wail (mediocre)

+4 leyline (vs loam)
+1 karakas (vs the token and to escape wasteland)


infect

-1 sower (to slow)

+1 needle (for nexus)

blade decks

-3 SCG (not good vs a cardavantage deck)

+2 all is dust (catches all (tnn/batterskull etc))
+1 endbriger (games Always go lategame, so its great vs batterskull and it shoots down strix)

Is there a good reason for not using Revoker in the board instead of needle? Of course it's easier to remove, but it doesn't nonbos with chalice and is a castable creature under bloodmoon which can carry a jitte. Jitte+revoker saved me at least twice with bloodmoon on board.

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Originally Posted by bigup

Is there a good reason for not using Revoker in the board instead of needle? Of course it's easier to remove, but it doesn't nonbos with chalice and is a castable creature under bloodmoon which can carry a jitte. Jitte+revoker saved me at least twice with bloodmoon on board.

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revoker does not catch wasteland. which is the main reason to have a needle in the board

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

revoker does not catch wasteland. which is the main reason to have a needle in the board

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But against a stifle/wasteland delver deck in game 2 on the play, would you play in a needle 1st turn instead of chalice on 1? I think i´d rather have chalice in play ASAP against most (if not all) the relevant decks playing wasteland.

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Originally Posted by bigup

But against a stifle/wasteland delver deck in game 2 on the play, would you play in a needle 1st turn instead of chalice on 1? I think i´d rather have chalice in play ASAP against most (if not all) the relevant decks playing wasteland.

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i whould go with the turn 1 needle. turn 2 you can still play chalice and play arround daze

This seems like a bit to defensive for my taste. If they don´t have wasteland, you´d basically waste a turn and give them the chance to cantrip into it or drop delver. Assuming it´s G2 and i go first they´d not be able to daze anyway.

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

i also had my doubts about the bomb. untill miracles started to play a big hate package moon/bridge/moat/back2basics

well the endbringer thing is more of a local thing, that we agreed upon. Endbringer is slow. but it is a card that can steal games. And get you back from unwinnable possitions. it shoots dow strix all day. i had 2 endbringers in play against shardless lately, that was just fireworks. Im not saying it is the perfect list. perhaps it should be 4 reshaper and 1 endbringer. But im not really sold on the reshaper dude. Endbringer is also really fun to play. It prevents the eldrazi deck from becoming a boring deck in the long run :P

im now testing 2 city of traitors in the list. after my talkt with h0cusp0cus, i wanted to test 1 tower of the magistrate. against stoneforge and strix.

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Do you find you generally have enough time to ratchet up that far? All those cost 3-4 but I do agree that you need SOMETHING to combat that kind of hate. One thing I really love about the GW version, World Breakers are amazing! Far less useful against blood moon though (very hard to cast and need a petal to do so) but fantastic against Moat and Bridge type locks.

Lastly, I certainly understand the appeal of Endbringer but it seems he sits in my hand as a dead draw more often than not. He's also 3rd (at least) in the priority list for me to cast him, after TKS and Reality Smasher.

I've also been souring on Jitte lately... I know some matches it's a complete blow out but it's also very slow, does virtually nothing against combo and even against decks I THINK it would be decent against (Miracles, Shardless), I find it has difficulty getting counters on because of all the removal. Outside a few decks I don't see that often (DnT, Elves), I am having a hard time justifying 2 slots in the main for them and have been considering moving them to the SB. Anyone else having similar experiences?

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

Do you find you generally have enough time to ratchet up that far? All those cost 3-4 but I do agree that you need SOMETHING to combat that kind of hate. One thing I really love about the GW version, World Breakers are amazing! Far less useful against blood moon though (very hard to cast and need a petal to do so) but fantastic against Moat and Bridge type locks.

Lastly, I certainly understand the appeal of Endbringer but it seems he sits in my hand as a dead draw more often than not. He's also 3rd (at least) in the priority list for me to cast him, after TKS and Reality Smasher.

I've also been souring on Jitte lately... I know some matches it's a complete blow out but it's also very slow, does virtually nothing against combo and even against decks I THINK it would be decent against (Miracles, Shardless), I find it has difficulty getting counters on because of all the removal. Outside a few decks I don't see that often (DnT, Elves), I am having a hard time justifying 2 slots in the main for them and have been considering moving them to the SB. Anyone else having similar experiences?

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time is no problem against miracles. worldbreaker is great. unless they trap you into a bloodmoon or back to basics.

jitte is the reason you win from grixis,elves and D&T

if you play 2 endbringers, you have to play the 4 eyes. with urborg it is no problem

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

Do you find you generally have enough time to ratchet up that far? All those cost 3-4 but I do agree that you need SOMETHING to combat that kind of hate. One thing I really love about the GW version, World Breakers are amazing! Far less useful against blood moon though (very hard to cast and need a petal to do so) but fantastic against Moat and Bridge type locks.

Lastly, I certainly understand the appeal of Endbringer but it seems he sits in my hand as a dead draw more often than not. He's also 3rd (at least) in the priority list for me to cast him, after TKS and Reality Smasher.

I've also been souring on Jitte lately... I know some matches it's a complete blow out but it's also very slow, does virtually nothing against combo and even against decks I THINK it would be decent against (Miracles, Shardless), I find it has difficulty getting counters on because of all the removal. Outside a few decks I don't see that often (DnT, Elves), I am having a hard time justifying 2 slots in the main for them and have been considering moving them to the SB. Anyone else having similar experiences?

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Well, I like them. If you feel different, why not just try it out? Every metagame is different. Spatial Contortions are flex slots. If you like to fill it with Ratchet Bombs to run it alongside World Breaker, feel free to do so. That doesn't make the slowness of the bomb I generally dislike go away, though. However, with the number of Miracle decks online, I might reconsider it for now.

@the_goat: My SB guide - note that it's a bit outdated and I'll update it when I find the time, probably next week.

I noticed Noloam_ has a completely different approach in various match-ups, but those are in general not my cup of tea. If it works for him, good.

On a different note: Finally got my mojo back and 5-0'ed another league.

R1: Maverick 2-0
R2: UR Control Brew 2-1
R3: UW Blade Brew 2-1 (had TNN and artificiers :eyebrow: )
R4: UW Blade Brew 2-0 (same guy - gotta love the shitty league pairing system :rolleyes: )
R5: Miracles 2-0

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Well, I like them. If you feel different, why not just try it out? Every metagame is different. Spatial Contortions are flex slots. If you like to fill it with Ratchet Bombs to run it alongside World Breaker, feel free to do so. That doesn't make the slowness of the bomb I generally dislike go away, though. However, with the number of Miracle decks online, I might reconsider it for now.

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I assume you are referring to Jitte here? I'm considering moving them to the SB but they do have some uses pre-boarding as well depending on the matchup. You're right though, certainly going to give some of these combinations a try.

I dropped the Spatial Contortions, while they are very good I got tired of not being able to deal with batterskull and goyfs (sometimes dismember doesn't even kill goyf though, which is hella awkward).

I find Ratchet Bomb very slow as well, which is why I really prefer World Breakers in that slot. However, at the moment I'm testing with noloam's build, so World Breakers aren't an option with the current build and I feel you need something against the hate cards. I still really like the white splash but SSG is so much better than lotus petal, that's the only real drawback I'm experiencing as I never found the mana to be much of an issue with the white splash.

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

time is no problem against miracles. worldbreaker is great. unless they trap you into a bloodmoon or back to basics.

jitte is the reason you win from grixis,elves and D&T

if you play 2 endbringers, you have to play the 4 eyes. with urborg it is no problem

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Ive been running the 4x eyes but only 1 Endbringer and 1 Urborg. Seemed to work fine, I just was underwhelmed by Endbringer in general.

I agree on Jitte too but those are very specific matchups. There's lots of other matchups where I find it's really lackluster and is immediately boarded out... I'll playtest different combinations but likely going to move at least 1 of them to the board. Maybe the 1:1 split is where I personally want to be, so I'll give that a try this weekend.

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

Ive been running the 4x eyes but only 1 Endbringer and 1 Urborg. Seemed to work fine, I just was underwhelmed by Endbringer in general.

I agree on Jitte too but those are very specific matchups. There's lots of other matchups where I find it's really lackluster and is immediately boarded out... I'll playtest different combinations but likely going to move at least 1 of them to the board. Maybe the 1:1 split is where I personally want to be, so I'll give that a try this weekend.

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what will you bring in instead?


gratz on your run barook! i went 4-1. again esper stoneblade :(. i was very happy when i drew my 1 off tower of magistrate against 1 batterskull + 10 mana. then he played needle on the tower :cry:
could you tell me how i can join the legacy challenges btw?

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

what will you bring in instead?

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From the main you mean? Likely more Warping Wail, I've been seriously impressed with that card. Kills Cliques, Deathrites, Dark Confidents, Strix(es), Metalworkers, unflipped Delvers and the sorcery option is very strong as well against Natural Order, Terminus and so forth.

Been very surprised by how much I've been enjoying that card and want to squeeze a couple more into the main deck to start playtesting.

all those creatures can also be killed by jitte. trading 1 for 1 with a clique is no vallue. killing pyromancers and confi with jitte is big big vallue. you can also prevent a batterskull from comming in to play. if you can kill the mystic on time with the jitte.

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

all those creatures can also be killed by jitte. trading 1 for 1 with a clique is no vallue. killing pyromancers and confi with jitte is big big vallue. you can also prevent a batterskull from comming in to play. if you can kill the mystic on time with the jitte.

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I disagree that there's no value in killing a clique on stack with a warping wail. Yes, she still gets to trigger but removing a 3/1 flyer against the legends miracles deck is certainly viable in my opinion (at least, it has seemed to have worked out very well in my playtesting).

You're 100% right that Jitte kills all those things too but you need hits and counters to tick Jitte up. A lot of time, I'm have issues getting hits in with the creature that Jitte is equipped to, which is why I'm finding it a little too slow. I'm certainly not saying Jitte is a bad card (certainly not), however, I'm finding I'd rather slap down something like a reality smasher and attack majority of the time than I would play a jitte, equip it and then attack with something much smaller in order to get my counters up. I guess it's a trade off and perhaps I just need more practice and playtesting but so far, it's been a little underwhelming in my experience. Warping Wail has been fantastic for me and also, Jitte can't do anything against Natural Order or Terminus, two cards that scare me. Warping Wail is also better against combo -- takes care of Show and Tell, Infernal Tutors and Reanimates.

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Originally Posted by Noloam_

i also had my doubts about the bomb. untill miracles started to play a big hate package moon/bridge/moat/back2basics

well the endbringer thing is more of a local thing, that we agreed upon. Endbringer is slow. but it is a card that can steal games. And get you back from unwinnable possitions. it shoots dow strix all day. i had 2 endbringers in play against shardless lately, that was just fireworks. Im not saying it is the perfect list. perhaps it should be 4 reshaper and 1 endbringer. But im not really sold on the reshaper dude. Endbringer is also really fun to play. It prevents the eldrazi deck from becoming a boring deck in the long run :P

im now testing 2 city of traitors in the list. after my talkt with h0cusp0cus, i wanted to test 1 tower of the magistrate. against stoneforge and strix.

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I'm very curious about this as well! City is great aggro, but can be annoying to use sometimes. I'm curious how Magistrate will be plus it is a lot cheaper option which could help with some of the bad match-ups. Also, wouldn't you want Karakas possibly MB then? I was thinking of dropping 1 City for 1 Karakas.

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Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk

I disagree that there's no value in killing a clique on stack with a warping wail. Yes, she still gets to trigger but removing a 3/1 flyer against the legends miracles deck is certainly viable in my opinion (at least, it has seemed to have worked out very well in my playtesting).

You're 100% right that Jitte kills all those things too but you need hits and counters to tick Jitte up. A lot of time, I'm have issues getting hits in with the creature that Jitte is equipped to, which is why I'm finding it a little too slow. I'm certainly not saying Jitte is a bad card (certainly not), however, I'm finding I'd rather slap down something like a reality smasher and attack majority of the time than I would play a jitte, equip it and then attack with something much smaller in order to get my counters up. I guess it's a trade off and perhaps I just need more practice and playtesting but so far, it's been a little underwhelming in my experience. Warping Wail has been fantastic for me and also, Jitte can't do anything against Natural Order or Terminus, two cards that scare me. Warping Wail is also better against combo -- takes care of Show and Tell, Infernal Tutors and Reanimates.

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well exiling a clique while he gets to mess with your hand, is more vallue for him than for you.

hehehe yes ofcourse you rather have a smasher. i whould play 10 smashers if it was possible. but i am equiping my factories all day with jitte. it is a good trade against blockers most of the time. i also like jitte after a boardcleaner. yes in the miracle match wail is hands down the better card. against sneaky show i am mostly building up my boardstate, i have no time to keep up the mana for wail most of the time. but i still keep them in in the match, just in case ^^