Could Mystic Remora have a place in this deck? Along with repeal, which would help against the turn 1 dreadnaught someone mentioned earlier.
And with the high amount of pitch counters and remora, would meditate be a good addition to the deck?
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Could Mystic Remora have a place in this deck? Along with repeal, which would help against the turn 1 dreadnaught someone mentioned earlier.
And with the high amount of pitch counters and remora, would meditate be a good addition to the deck?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzatog
Not for the current Legacy metagame. Early on, you pick a few different paths... What would you remove for the remora? Your broader removal? It's only a card draw mechanism... that eats up your resources. When you are playing a reactive game, Remora sucks away your ability to... be reactive. These are not decks filled with responses like daze and misdirection... you need hard counters. Your opponent plays Turn 1 Mongoose, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf... or Turn 1 Lackey... Do you scoop?
No, maybe, and no.
Mystic Remora essentially says "Pay X, do nothing." Which is hardly an ideal thing in a deck completely ill-equipped to take advantage of the potential tempo boost Remora might give. Remora is almost strictly worse than Standstill in this case, and that's not saying much considering Standstill is fucking awful in MUC.
Repeal is a decent card, and in a wide-open metagame with a lot of Aggro-Control I might consider running it in lieu of Propaganda if I knew there was going to be almost no Goblins or other aggro. On the other hand, it doesn't really help in the early game, where bounce is most needed, because it always costs more than what you're bouncing and is often a tempo loss rather than a tempo stealer like a bounce spell usually is.
Meditate is garbage because you have to skip a turn for it, often with your pants down because you tapped 3 mana for it. You have 4, count-em, 4 pitch spells. That means you might be able to stop a threat on your opponents turn if you tapped for a Meditate early, and by the time you could afford to play Meditate with counter backup Fact or Fiction would be infinitely better.
On a totally different note, I screwed around (briefly) with Pact of Negation and Foil in a more counter-oriented build. Neither of them are exceptionally awful, which was somewhat surprising, but Pact's inability to help in the early game was extremely frustrating and Foil is often too much card disadvantage to overcome when used in desperation. Then again, I did find Foil to be surprisingly solid in the mid-game and in a list with a higher land count (25ish) Foil would be a solid alternative to whatever you might be running counter wise after Counterspell and Force.
Maybe as a sideboard card?
Maybe if you expect a lot of storm-combo.It just might be that it's solid in Vintage,but not so much in Legacy,where creatures are actually played.
There is a lot of different directions you can go with this deck.
I'm just wondering if finally, after all this time, some sort of consensus is building around what an optimal build maybe, something along the lines of...
24 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Vedalken Shackles
1 Morphling
1 Teferi
With minor varations ala replacing the conditional counterspells with different ones like Repeal, Force Spike. Or running fetchlands and Brainstorm in place of Visions, EE instead of Powder Keg.
Or if there are still people who continue to play the deck who advocate an entirely different direction...
Chrome Mox
Chalice of the Void
Countertop
Trinket Mage
Etc.
So what say you? Do we finally have a pretty good idea of what the deck should look like, or is there still a lot of disagreement on this?
Most of the lists generally look about like that, i would be more interested in getting some common sb choices.
Concerning Force Spike I think that it might actually be good in Legacy because most people think it sucks here. In Extended the NLU and PLU decks are known for playing Force Spike and therefore most opponents are prepared to play arround them. So what do you think: Should Force Spike be played in legacy Mono U Control or not?
Dilettante: Annul is a really good idea for my meta. Thank you, I will try it.
Muradin: That would be logical were it not for the fact that Daze fulfills a very similar role in Legacy to what Force Spike accomplishes in Extended. Intelligent opponents will play around both Daze and Force Spike inherently, because of the former's popularity. In addition to that, Force Spike loses effectiveness after you use it once because then it becomes a known quantity, on top of how suspect it is once you hit the late game.
Well,in the same sense you can bluff it.And it is good against turn 1 Lackey.I don't mean it should be there,but it is not that bad
Is there any reason why mana leak (or rune snag) has been thrown out as the counter to use after fow and counterspell? It costs 2, and your opponents rarely have the resources to pay for it in the early stages of the game, and hopefully b2b is screwing them up enough in the late game so they wont have the resources there either.
I ran it in Relic Orb and it never really disappointed me.
Because it doesn't help early game vulnerabilities as well as Spell Snare of Force Spike, which is what we need out of that slot, not further late-game redundancy (which is questionable, because in my testing I found both Rune Snag and Mana Leak to be extremely weak later in the game).
You just said it: it costs 2(!).
That means that it is just as bad as Counterspell when you are playing on the draw in addition to being weak in the late game. Spell Snare is just godlike when going second - such a big advantage, you can't imagine how many times it saved me from losing a game to a crucial T2 drop (for example, an early Confidant might be even scarier than a Tarmogoyf at that time!).
And it keeps its lategame strength what's another extra point.
Another food for thought:
We concluded that AV is run in builds with more board control elements and BS is run in builds that rely more on stack control.
So what do you run for pure CA in those stack-oriented builds except for FoF?
Accumulated Knowledge was found to take up too many slots (you usually got to combine it with Intuition and it really HATES Extirpate), Thirst for Knowledge is too dependant on a reasonable artifact count and Think Twice seems to be too uneffective for its cost of 5 mana for +1 CA.
I played with Meditate 1 or 2 Tournaments and it was really surprising (I have to add that I ran a little w-Splash for Swords and better EE that helped avoiding too much damage during the opponent's extra turn) and many players threw their counters on it so I could resolve a FoF next turn.
Especially with no current threat out, the unexpected extra turn was used to play "critter/cantrip, go" and I don't really have to underline that it shines in the control MUs.
So long,
Doks
To be honest, I think you don't need other card drawing spells than Fact or Fiction and Brainstorm, they alone should draw/dig you answers you need, let it be counterspell or some sort of boardcontrol.
I don't want to repeat myself in every post I write (two posts, lol) but I'd like to bring Cryptic Command back to conversation. Why it was ditched? Sure, 4cc for counterspell may be too much, we don't run Dismiss for that reason. But Command has those other options to choose from, which makes it very good. For example, against aggro, Counter/bounce is just nuts, and Repeal for everything isn't that bad. And of cource it has the Dismiss option which isn't that bad either. Rarely I use the "tap all creatures" option but I don't think that it is totally unusable. Against control (like landstill) it is another hardcounter with cantrip attached to it. I haven't tested against combo so much but I think that if you get to mid-late game with combo, you should win anyway.
@ DaiJou
I don't think that people aren't running command because it is a bad card, but more because there isn't really anything *more* important that can be taken out.
For reference, I will post the last list from Kadaj (AV build) and my list (Brainstorm build):
Kadaj List:
X25 Island
X4 Force Of Will
X4 Counterspell
X2 Spell Snare
X4 Powder Keg
X4 Back To Basics
X4 Propaganda
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Ancestral Vision
X1 Morphling
X1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
X1 Rainbow Efreet
My List:
15x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction
1x Flash of Insight
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Back to Basics
3x Vedelkan Shackles
2x Powder Keg
1x Morphling
1x Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
1x Rainbow Efreet
If you could point out where you think Cryptic Command would fit into either of those lists, We can actually start a discussion from there. Personally, I just don't know if there is room in either build for it.
@ Kadaj
I have taken on board your builds manabase of 25 lands and am much hapier with the results. My last build was 23 land and i hoped to find them with brainstorms and fetches... but there in lies a big problem. Fetches were thinning my deck and i had less land to go find. now instead of searching for lands with my brainstorms, i can use them to draw threats/answers.
Slobad23.
Cryptic Command was dropped because 4 mana is too much for a utility based card. 4 mana for a counterspell and a bounce effect is too slow. Yes, there are limited situations where it can be amazing, but they are few and far between. It simply costs too much mana to be effective with the way Legacy plays out.
@Slobad, and everyone else actually
Do yourself a favor; Do not rely on Brainstorm or whatever other cantrips you're utilizing to find yourself land drops. If you do you are making Brainstorm far less effective at what it should be doing, which is digging you to more answers. You have to run enough lands that you naturally make your first 4-5 land drops without assistance, otherwise any card advantage, card quality, spells you use are going to be weakened because you have to place an even higher priority on finding land-drops than you usually would.
@Slobad
I think that Command has no place in AV build, it looks quite solid the way it is.
But for Brainstorm-build I think Command should be considered.
For reference, my list:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
15 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Morphling
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Cryptic Command
4 Force Spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
Differences with your list are:
4 Spell Snare (which I have replaced with Spike)
-2 Flooded Strand
-1 Flash of Insight
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-2 Powder Keg
-1 Wincondition
If we don't count Snares, that is 7 cards which are my 4 Command and 3 Impulse.
Now, if I were to include Cryptic Commands to your build, I'd do it like this:
-1 Land (I think 25 is too much, but my preference)
-1 Flash of Insight (Is this good as 1 off?)
-2 Powder Kegs (I think these are a bit too slow, you have Engineered Explosives. Aren't they enough?)
Oh, another post came while writing this.
@Kadaj
I test mostly against aggro/aggrocontroll decks. In most cases against say, Threshold or Rocky style deck, getting 4 lands meant that I win mostly because Command. All earlier threats are countered of destroyed by Explosives. (Or at least should be) So I've been happy with Commands. If I were to cut them, I would not know what to put in.
Do you guys think the Swan's Song + Chain of Plasma instant speed combo could fit into this deck.
Swans' Song 2{w or u}{w or u}
Creature - Bird Spirit Rare
Flying
If damage would be dealt to Swans' Song, prevent that damage. The controller of the damage's source then draws cards equal to the damage prevented in this way.
4/3
The deck could also splash 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Chain Lightning which are honestly perfectly good cards in MUC as they can deal with a lot of creatures. And with Swan's Song in play, they act like Ancestral Recalls.
Basically rather than being a pure all or nothing combo deck, it would be a more controllish slower combo deck.
One that is harder to disrupt, effective without the combo card and more flexible than any combo deck out there, and it would have an instant speed win the second that you cast Swan's Song.
Just throwing the thought out there.
MUC devotes 2-3 slots to its win conditions. None of its win conditions are 2-card combos. Red splashes suck.
Absolutely not. Both the "perfectly good" and the "a lot of creatures" parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
(Actually, that's the most stupid thing I've heard in a while. Sigged.)
Swan's Song would take an entirely new deck to be successful and makes no sense in MUC, particularly in my builds. A Board-Control-Combo deck? I don't think that's going to work too well. Maybe in some of the more counter heavy builds, but even then splashing red would be stupid because you lose out on Back to Basics and at that point you're playing an entirely different deck.
So in short, Swan's Song + Chain of Plasma might be decent in general, but it doesn't have any place in MUC.