[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by erhnamdjinn

guys is goblin goon still viable in todays legacy, my meta always has alot of anti goblin hate even if only 2-3 people play, me playing the goblin deck, I also see alot of jitte's and silver knights, which is why im thinking of switching from R/W to R/G because I have a hard time dealing with a active Jitte. I noticed also most goblin builds have only like 3-4 slots that can be interchanged.

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I think RG is more popular and better now because everything that white offers, green has as well (and usually better too)... Disenchant becomes Naturalize/Krosan Grip, and you can also run 2-3 Hooligans MD for those artifacts since the deck's kind of light on 2-drops. I don't think the deck needs removal outside of Incinerator and Fanatic, since your horde of creatures >>> than their creatures (yeah, even Goyfs). Besides, anything with pro-red doesn't do much if he's not wielding a Fork or a SoFI.

And yet last month the Goblin builds that made Top 8 were:

3 White
2 Black/Green
1 Green/White
1 White/Black
1 Black
1 Green

I'd say StP or Smother is more than worth it in Goblins.

I actually went third with a RW build in a recent legacy tourney my only loss coming from a belcher deck,STP is really a gem but I really think Tin street hooligan is a must since Jitte is so active in my meta, god I hate Jitte,Silver Knight and Eng. plague even more than goyf. Oh I despise Nimble mongoose aswell.:tongue:

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Originally Posted by Nihil

And yet last month the Goblin builds that made Top 8 were:

3 White
2 Black/Green
1 Green/White
1 White/Black
1 Black
1 Green

I'd say StP or Smother is more than worth it in Goblins.

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Actually, without further statistics showing a breakdown of the Goblin builds played, this shows nothing to prove how effective Smother/STP is, merely that Goblins can T8 while running it, which we all knew. Goblins could occasionally T8 running Mishra's War Machine.

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Originally Posted by erhnamdjinn

I actually went third with a RW build in a recent legacy tourney my only loss coming from a belcher deck,STP is really a gem but I really think Tin street hooligan is a must since Jitte is so active in my meta, god I hate Jitte,Silver Knight and Eng. plague even more than goyf. Oh I despise Nimble mongoose aswell.:tongue:

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What's your build?

What do you guys think about the list that ran one Mirror Entity to power through 'goyf? It also had STP, Orim's Chant*, and Disenchant in the board.

*I think this is the best anti-combo card; it's even better than Cabal Therapy.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the one thing that's still great about the white splash... Mirror Entity. I tried running 4 of him, and it was HOT. He's kinda like a pseudo-Piledriver, speeding things up so much more.

I don't like Orim's Chant now though. I mean, yeah, it's a great anti-combo card, but Storm isn't too popular nowadays, and the combo that's around (Breakfast, Ichorid) doesn't die to it. It's great against Belcher though... But I'd still prefer Chalices/Pillars/combination of both.

But we're already good against Breakfast/Ichorid, right? I mean, one Mogg Fanatic owns all the Bridge/Dredge portion, and he's great against the Breakfast kids too. We can force both decks into their Game Plan B.

TES is still heavily played here in NY, and I see some Solidarity and Bechler played. I think I saw only one Mirror Entity in the Goblin list I saw, but I would consider four.

For reference, here is the German list:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12204

Also, has anyone tested Dolmen Gate as an answer to blocking Tarmogoyf's?

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Originally Posted by Drow Slayer

But we're already good against Breakfast/Ichorid, right? I mean, one Mogg Fanatic owns all the Bridge/Dredge portion, and he's great against the Breakfast kids too. We can force both decks into their Game Plan B.

TES is still heavily played here in NY, and I see some Solidarity and Bechler played. I think I saw only one Mirror Entity in the Goblin list I saw, but I would consider four.

For reference, here is the German list:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12204

Also, has anyone tested Dolmen Gate as an answer to blocking Tarmogoyf's?

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to bad dolmens gate only works on the offensive, I played mirror entity in my build and felt it was just a win more card not once did it actually help me win the game and I had it as a one of.

I fail to see why Orim's Chant is regarded as a decent anti-combo card. It's not outside of Combo Decks, which can use it doubly as an anti-combo card and an anti-disruption card.

First of all, Goblins is not a deck that's willing to keep mana open defensively. Goblins is a deck that puts pressure on the opponents. Your combo pieces should either be A. Free, or B. Proactive. Orim's Chant is neither one.

Secondly, let's look at the combo decks nowadays.

1. Cephalid Breakfast. Chant's entire use here is stopping Abeyance, so Crypt or Fanatic can muck up the rest of the combo. Decent.

2. Ichorid. Buys you an overpriced Fog if you spend the mana for the kicker. Terrible.

3. TES/Iggy/Storm Combo. Can shut them down, but most of the time these decks pack Chant/Abeyance of their own, leaving you much in the same situation of having to trade Chant-For-Chant. These decks also may go off turn two, meaning that when you're on the draw you might have to decide between playing a turn one Lackey and risking death, or holding back for Chant and risking not having enough speed to win. Still, decent.

4. Burn. Chant stops a Suspended Rift Bolt. Goopity-freaking-goo. Terrible.

5. Aluren. They either go off next turn, go off in response to your chant, or Force your Chant. Might work if completely unexpected. Sub-par.

6. Belcher. Probably Chant's best showing, but only consistently useful if you're going first due to Belcher's propensity to do whatever it's going to do on the first turn more often than not. Decent.

7. Solidarity. Fold Orim's Chant into a paper airplane and throw it into the air as an offering to the God of the Stack in fervent prayer that he bestows a ray of stupidity upon your opponent. Can help if you already get fast pressure, though. Sub-par.

Get the point? Chant sucks in Goblins.

EDIT:

@ Dolmen Gate: I like this card. If my meta had more creatures, I'd play around with it. It's pretty strong against Tarmogoyf and anything with creatures, period. It lets you blindly swing in against anything and use Piledrivers essentially as reuseable removal spells.

Tacosnape,
I agree with most of your analysis. I like the breakdown, although I don't consider burn a "combo" deck persay, or even a good deck. I also think that the Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid matchups are better served with just plain mogg fanatics. I guess I'm really looking for an answer to TES/Iggy/Storm Combo and Solidarity. I agree that Chant is terrible against Solidarity.

I was using Thorn of Amethyst, but it seems too slow against TES and Belcher. Also, most combo decks have a way to just bounce it, so I wasted my turn. I like Cabal Therapy, but I often name the wrong card or I don't hit enough cards, and they just win through it.

Does anyone have test results from Dolmen Gate? Can I swing into 'goyfs with it, or is it a wasted drop? Also, what do you think the right number is?

Against those, i still have to say Chalice is a good choice, dropping it at 0 in the first turn against TES/Belcher - unless they go Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, brokenness. As for Solidarity, really the only way you can go against that is race them. Probably REB's out of the board, but they don't really help much against anything else.

@ernhamdjinn: Maybe Mirror Entity didn't help you much because you were only running 1? I've been trying 4 in the MD (22 land, 4 Vial, 34 Goblins), and it's sped up the kill at least a turn. There's really no point in keeping mana open for your opponent's turn anyway.

EDIT: Chalice is also really good against Burn, for all that's worth.

I'll test Mirror Entity once I pick up 2...which I think looks right. That card looks freakishly powerful.

Chalice seems better at 1 than at 0 even against things like TES. Thoughts?

Against storm combo, I usually drop the first Chalice at 0, to cut the artifact accel (LED, Chrome Mox, Petal). Besides, if you wait until you drop your second land to cast that Chalice for 1, it might already be too late, especially on the draw.

Like I said, the combo player still has that chance to combo off even without the artifacts, but in a deck like this, I think proactive answers >> reactive ones.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Against storm combo, I usually drop the first Chalice at 0, to cut the artifact accel (LED, Chrome Mox, Petal). Besides, if you wait until you drop your second land to cast that Chalice for 1, it might already be too late, especially on the draw.

Like I said, the combo player still has that chance to combo off even without the artifacts, but in a deck like this, I think proactive answers >> reactive ones.

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I've never found it to be enough set at 0. Also, I've only been combod out T1 once.

CHALICE at 0 hoses:
LED
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
CHALICE at 1 hoses:
Dark Ritual
Brainstorm
Chain of Vapor
Rite of Flame?
Ponder

Damn, that's not as extensive of a list as I thought. Chalice at 0 is probably the way to go.

Yup, told you. Also consider the fact that their 0cc spells are much more important to them. Follow up the Chalice for 0 with a Lackey and a Chalice for 1, and you've just won the game.

Step one: Therapy for LED

Step two: Cast Chalice for one.

Step three: ???

Step four: win.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

Step one: Therapy for LED

Step two: Cast Chalice for one.

Step three: ???

Step four: win.

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You got it wrong its PROFIT!!! not win...and usually theres only 3 steps too.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

You got it wrong its PROFIT!!!.

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WTH?!

EDIT: I'm guessing you'll be dropping that Chalice according to whatever you see after you Therapy, right?...

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Yup, told you. Also consider the fact that their 0cc spells are much more important to them. Follow up the Chalice for 0 with a Lackey and a Chalice for 1, and you've just won the game.

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Yeah, if you draw two on your opening hand.

I just take the loss against TES/Iggy. Four Chalices isn't going to ever be enough. You probably lose game one, and you'll need some godly draws to pull off the next two based strictly on Chalice of the Void. You can set it to zero, but you'll be lucky to buy yourself more than 2 turns by doing so. You can set it to 1, but you won't buy much more and they might go off before you get it set to 0.