[DTB] Vial Goblins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT

@ Jolfer:

'Nuff said. Now, as for the fanatic slot, does it have to be another 1-drop goblin? Why can't that spot be designated as open. I personally don't like fanatic in goblins, mainly because he is in fact, the weakest goblin in the deck.

---

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Fanatic is som important for clearing first turn Lackey blockers. Sure, they're weaker in the late game, but they have a role to serve and they serve it well.

On a side note, I tested Grappler in the Fantic slot about a year ago and it sucked ass. It seems like it would be a good trick with Lackey, but by the time it would actually be useful, your opponent has has either removed Lackey or played more than one blocker. It's even less good when you consider that a great many creatures in the format can either tap for an ability in response or are untargetable.

@ Pumplands:

Whether or not you run them is a metagame choice. In a creature filled meta Burrows and Pits rock; if your metagame is filled with decks severely hampered by the mana denial lands, play them.

@Godzilla:

What one mana 1/1's would Fanatic take care of?
B/w: 0 (Ritualed creatures, sans Hippy, don't want to block because they are all x/1's)
Threshold: 0
Goblins: A bunch, but Lackey is lackluster here.
R/w Rifter: 0
Solidarity: 0

Out of all the top decks in the format, only Goblins really has any targets to Lava Dart. I am not saying that Mogg Fanatic should be removed but the arguement you gave was a weak defense.

I have played many games where Fanatic was actually a factor in dealing the last point of damage. Whether or not I could have claimed victory sooner if Fanatic was a Grappler or not, I don't know.

@Godzilla:

What one mana 1/1's would Fanatic take care of?
B/w: 0 (Ritualed creatures, sans Hippy, don't want to block because they are all x/1's)
Threshold: 0
Goblins: A bunch, but Lackey is lackluster here.
R/w Rifter: 0
Solidarity: 0[/QUOTE]
Looking at the proposed alternative (Goblin Grappler):

B/w: You already have a good matchup here unless they get Darkblast/ E. Plague, in which case you're fucked either way.

Threshold: Grappler can't target Mongoose, which is the only relevant creature when it comes to forcing through Lackey. It might be decent against Werebear in the late game, but if you have a board left by turn 3 you're probably already winning.

Goblins: Grappler is pretty lackluster here as well. I'd rather have Fanatic to take out opposing Sharpshooters and Lackies.

R/w Rifter: In a deck without meaningful blockers to speak of in the early game, the distinction is almost meaningless. At least Fanatic deals a point to the dome when they Wrath you.

Solidarity: Fanatic is strictly superior to Grappler in this matchup.


We can say that Fanatic is crappy, but it deals well with randomness. Contrary to popular belief, x/1's still get played in this format. Birds, mana Elves, Kird Ape (if you waste their first turn Taiga), hell, even random jank like Ichorid. Your analysis also completely ignores Fanatic's ability to mess with combat math. For example, the ability to kill an x/2 blocking one of your 1/1's, or an x/3 blocking one of your 2/2's, etc.

Speaking in terms of sheer versatility, Fanatic provides more utility in almost all possible circumstances. I'm willing to accept the possibility that Fanatic should be replaced, but if it is, it should be a 1/1 to properly smooth the curve, and Grappler isn't a particularly attractive alternative. Consider it the lesser of all available evils.

Out fanatic,
In Burning Wish?

I would only play 3 wish. But still, your trading a very weak card for a very strong one, dispite issues with tribal synergies. Playing burning wish could let you lighten up your gempalm load if you wanted. Wish gets removal, like.. Anarchy.


-EDIT

On another note, here's a quote from zilla on the Rifter thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GodzillA

Rifter does have one major drawback and that is its manabase can be disrupted. While the deck is highly resistant to Wasteland given that it plays 16 or so basic lands it can be affected by Rishadan Port especially by cutting off one of the 2 colors that might be needed at any given time. It is also more suspectible to land destruction strategies employed mainly by decks like Deadguy Ale.

---

If Rifter is currently viewed as a DTB then maybe we should continue to play our Rishadin Ports? When I play gobs I really dont enjoy staring at maindecked Humility. I think I'd rather be stronger in this match up. Yea yea pump lands get around Humility, but not with a Lightining Rift out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Out fanatic,
In Burning Wish?

---

The Golden Rule for Goblins is that any non-land, non-Goblin card besides Vial simply doesn't belong. There are too many dissynergies with the rest of the deck. As it's been pointed out time and time again, they weaken Ringleaders, Lackies, Matrons, and Gempalms. On top of that, they're horrendously slow, where Goblins is one the fastest aggro decks in the format. Wish simply doesn't belong.

I'm not against innovation, but for my Vial Goblins deck I'll stick with Wasteland and Rishadan Port over Goblin Burrows and Skarrg, the Rage Pits.

I'm planning on taking Jonathan Sonne's mono-red Vial Goblins deck to an upcoming Legacy tournament instead of my R/w Vial Goblins deck. I'm not making any changes to the main deck, but I want to change/update the sideboard. I'm expecting Threshold, other aggro (Goblins), Affinity, Solidarity, and probably some Control decks. Here's what I'm thinking:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

The problem I'm having is figuring out what to side out. Anyone have any sideboaring suggestions? For example:

Vs. Threshold
+4 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Mogg Fanatic

Thanks!

Zilla what about Lightning Bolts? Those arent goblins and people play them. Like I said wish isnt so slow when you have active lackey or vial. It would seem that if your playing bolts you might as well try wish since it answers ALL of the problems faced when playing goblins.

Last night I played the mirror. My opponent played R/w Gobs with 3 maindeck STP. I won 3 out of 5 games. 2 of them were because I played vial, gempalmed something, and wished for pyroclasm. Then I vialed out warcheif/ringleader and won pretty hardcore. People dont see silly tech like that coming. Every mirror you play in, you'll see opponents overextend into clasm, I garentee.

Not too mention you can grab a shattering spree turn 3 and have vial superiority. This wins the mirror does it not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GodzillA

We can say that Fanatic is crappy, but it deals well with randomness. Contrary to popular belief, x/1's still get played in this format. Birds, mana Elves, Kird Ape (if you waste their first turn Taiga), hell, even random jank like Ichorid. Your analysis also completely ignores Fanatic's ability to mess with combat math. For example, the ability to kill an x/2 blocking one of your 1/1's, or an x/3 blocking one of your 2/2's, etc.

Speaking in terms of sheer versatility, Fanatic provides more utility in almost all possible circumstances. I'm willing to accept the possibility that Fanatic should be replaced, but if it is, it should be a 1/1 to properly smooth the curve, and Grappler isn't a particularly attractive alternative. Consider it the lesser of all available evils.

---

My bad on the combat math. I forgot that guy can do that ;)

While killing randomness is nice, it is not game ending like forcing through midgame Lackeys or lategame Piledrivers.

With that said, I'm not sure which one is better. Currently I am testing Grappler.

On Non Goblin Cards: They are bad maindeck, whether it be burn, swords, wish, whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Last night I played the mirror. My opponent played R/w Gobs with 3 maindeck STP. I won 3 out of 5 games. 2 of them were because I played vial, gempalmed something, and wished for pyroclasm. Then I vialed out warcheif/ringleader and won pretty hardcore. People dont see silly tech like that coming. Every mirror you play in, you'll see opponents overextend into clasm, I garentee.

Not too mention you can grab a shattering spree turn 3 and have vial superiority. This wins the mirror does it not?

---

Are you suggesting that winning 3 out of 5 games in a mirror is definitive proof of... anything?

I'd like to note, that in 1.x pre-rotation the top placing Goblin lists that ran Burning Wish were not running Vial to keep the non-Goblin cards to a minimum so that they wouldn't interefere with strong Ringleaders. What matches, however, do you wish to shore by giving up uncounterability with Vial for high counterability and butchering your sideboard to make it a wishboard? I don't think that Vial and Wish are mutually exclusive but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be adding more than the Vials as non-land/non-gobbos in my MD.

The non-Vial Goblins lists with Burning Wish were pretty much obsolete by about the third or fourth week of the PTQs, so I'm not sure how relevant that is. Besides, there's a lot of synergy between Burning Wish and Vial.

@holmes: Drawing Vial and Ringleader will generally put you ahead in the mirror. Also, because of how the Goblin mirror plays out, it's really quite rare that people will overextend into Pyroclasm because it's almost the same as overextending into Goblin Sharpshooter. Trying to win the mirror with with an aggro draw is difficult and stupid.

The only way I could see adding cards is if you switched out Vial for them. I played 1.x Goblins with Seething Song, and it was hot (first round of a PTQ, I won on turn 2) but that was only because Vial is illegal. I can't think of any cards I'd actually replace the Vial with, and 8 non-land, non-goblins is the opposite of Tech.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

I'm expecting Threshold, other aggro (Goblins), Affinity, Solidarity, and probably some Control decks. Here's what I'm thinking:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

The problem I'm having is figuring out what to side out. Anyone have any sideboaring suggestions? For example:

Vs. Threshold
+4 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Mogg Fanatic

Thanks!

---

I would strongly recommend Pyrostatic Pillar. I have found it to be very effective against Threshold and Solidarity. It should also work well in the Affinity matchup.

If you're not running it maindeck, Goblin Tinkerer is also a very good choice for your board, as it lets you win the Vial war and takes out Pithing Needles. It also lets you destroy Jitte or any other high-cc artifact, although it will die then.
Skirk Fire Marshal is also your game-saver against Threshold decks running Worship.

For the mirror, additional Sharpshooters are very effective and I would include them over Pyrokinesis.

As for the boarding plan, I usually side out SGC, KJ or Sharpshooter, depending on the matchup of course. Mogg Fanatic is crucial in the early game, I almost never sideboard them out.

Hope this helps.

I'm also very interested in the boarding plan of other Goblin players, what are your sideboarding plans?

Thank you Bongo. If you click on the hyperlink in my post you'll see the main deck (scroll down to the deck list). There is 1 main deck Goblin Sharpshooter, 1 main deck Goblin Tinkerer, 3 main deck Siege-Gang Commanders, and no Kiki-Jiki's. Sonne's original sideboard is:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Price of Progress
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

I like some of your suggestions, but I'm finding it difficult to fit everything I want to into my sideboard.

In my build of Vial-Goblins I run Tangle Wire.It is usefull in problematic Machtups , and it has the ability to allow you to change the bord position.At the same time it has nice interaction with Rishadan Port(which I still run),Wasteland,Aether Vial,Skirk Prospector,Goblin Warchief and in some extend it also interacts with Lackey and Piledriver.



The only real problem I see is that it is not a goblin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Thank you Bongo. If you click on the hyperlink in my post you'll see the main deck (scroll down to the deck list). There is 1 main deck Goblin Sharpshooter, 1 main deck Goblin Tinkerer, 3 main deck Siege-Gang Commanders, and no Kiki-Jiki's. Sonne's original sideboard is:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Price of Progress
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

I like some of your suggestions, but I'm finding it difficult to fit everything I want to into my sideboard.

---

You should try and fit Tormod's Crypts in there. It is super important in the Threshold matchup and hits Tog and Loam decks.

I would probably take out the Pyrokinesis for the Crypts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GodzillA

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Fanatic is som important for clearing first turn Lackey blockers. Sure, they're weaker in the late game, but they have a role to serve and they serve it well.

On a side note, I tested Grappler in the Fantic slot about a year ago and it sucked ass. It seems like it would be a good trick with Lackey, but by the time it would actually be useful, your opponent has has either removed Lackey or played more than one blocker. It's even less good when you consider that a great many creatures in the format can either tap for an ability in response or are untargetable.

---

After testing, I found Grappler pretty crappy in general. Once in a while it did what I wanted it to, but generally it was just a 1/1 for R. Most of the situatiosn it was weak in, however, Mogg Fanatic would be either the same or worse. Rarely would either card do a lot. It's hard to get past the fact that every non-land card in the deck except this slot either does something ridiculous or enables the ridiculous cards. Fanatic and Grappler do neither. I'm at the point where I'd either consider Sledder, which can fight Pyroclasm at least, or just run more tutor targets and Tin Streets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssasin

After testing, I found Grappler pretty crappy in general. Once in a while it did what I wanted it to, but generally it was just a 1/1 for R. Most of the situatiosn it was weak in, however, Mogg Fanatic would be either the same or worse. Rarely would either card do a lot. It's hard to get past the fact that every non-land card in the deck except this slot either does something ridiculous or enables the ridiculous cards. Fanatic and Grappler do neither. I'm at the point where I'd either consider Sledder, which can fight Pyroclasm at least, or just run more tutor targets and Tin Streets.

---

Have you thought about Skirk Prospector? The obvious use is to enable 2nd turn Wachiefs, and is obviously good with Sharpshooter and SGC. Another awesome quality is to make Daze crap. I run him as a one-of and everytime I saw him in the Threshold match, I wanted him early to be able to play through Daze effectively.

From playing that matchup a lot, Daze is really their best counter. Losing tempo by leaving counterspell open, or losing cards by FoW is bad times. Daze allows them to play their threats with counter back up, with no relevant drawback.

Nevertheless, getting a second turn Chief destroyed/counter is craptacular.

Just my 2 cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

You should try and fit Tormod's Crypts in there. It is super important in the Threshold matchup and hits Tog and Loam decks.

I would probably take out the Pyrokinesis for the Crypts.

---

Why would you take out pyrokenesis? It is busted in the goblin mirror and pretty decent against D. ale, and other aggro decks.

I would take out the PoP's. They do not seem that strong to me.

As I wrote in my post, this is Sonne's sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Price of Progress
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

This is my sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

Please comment on my sideboard, not Sonne's.

Thank you.