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That's enough of the Bob bashing. Bob > Counter Balance. Cards draw > Life Loss.
But I will agree with you that Bob is counter productive when you have Counter Balance on the table.
I have to agree with Wastedlife, Top is bad for straight Gro. But I really don't see any other way to get the full effect of CB without it. Then it becomes worse then Daze, and a very conditional Counterspell.
It all depends on how you define conditional. Daze is most definately conditional. Force of Will is most definately conditional, though you can use it in many more instances than Daze. If you mean by too conditional that it will be useful less often than Daze, lets look at some statisics.
In the last D4D I took either the top placing, or most consistant version of the decks to beat. I then counted the number of one and two costed spells maindecked. Now remember in just my example, there are 17 one mana and 22two mana spells.
Threshold(Bardo): 1)22. 2)15.
Solidarity(Deep6er): 1)12. 2)17.
Angel Stompy(Canook): 1)14. 2)14.
Goblins(Smart Version): 1)12. 2)8. (Just for completeness)
Deadguy Ale(Bowles): 1)11. 2)17.
B/R Sui(Anwar): 1)15. 2)16.
Without the low land count, Fetchlands, and copious amounts of deck manipulation, inherent in Threshold, that's still better than a 25% chance of hitting against most of these decks. I would say that alone would be better than Daze. I doesn't cost a land drop, and pays for itself after more than one use. I also think over the course of a full game, Daze is dead more than 25% of the time.
Now you take into account all the above mentioned ways Threshold has to increase this percentage, and I see a formidable tempo machine. I'm awful with numbers, but I can see odds pretty well. When you know how many cards in hand your opponent has, the amount of mana available, and in most cases, the cards in their deck, is it really so hard to believe you will be able to successfully use this several times?
Unlike many, I never made the claim that Counterbalance was broken, but if it works several times during the course of a game, at the cost of one card and two mana since the deck manipulation was already in Threshold, and you are still able to counter the spell anyway since you reveal while it is still on the stack, doesn't that seem to have merit?
2 Questions: What is the particular cause for so much ugr builds being used lately, and so little white?
How many stifles should be run between md/sb?
There wasn't a single UGR build at the most recent D4D. Where are you getting that there is a lot?Quote:
What is the particular cause for so much ugr builds being used lately, and so little white?
1) Because UGR is stronger against Goblins, and some forms of random aggro--because of Pyroclasm, burn, etc. UGR is stronger in some metas; ditto for UGW. Honestly, I think it often comes down to personal taste and access to the appropriate dual lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Binary Star
2) I'd say 0. But if the correct number is greater than 0, then it's not more than 2. Sure there's a lot of stuff that you want to Stifle, but not so much that I can really really get behind its inclusion.
I found this on www.Morphling.de
Iserlohn, Germany 23.07.2006
At a 64 participant tournament this list came in 3rd. With a record of 6-1.
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Note
3 Predict
4 Serum Visions
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
3 Fire/Ice
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet
Lands (18):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hidden Gibbons
1 Hydroblast
2 Naturalize
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormond's Crypt
I like the use of BTS here. His huge body must help the deck against the mirror and gobs even more. His build is very aggro with the additional body and the red burn spells.
Wow, I have been thinking of changing from UGW a little. Maybe I'll do some testing with this build, or something close.
People have been running Burning Tree Shaman in UGr Gro for a while in Germany. It is a lot better than Fledging Dragon due to it's easier casting cost and it's very useful ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
By the way, another card that sees a lot of play around here recently is Hidden Gibbons. I haven't read most of this thread, but if you guys haven't considered Gibbons as a sideboard card yet, you might want to try it. It's usually sided in against the Mirror, Solidarity/Spring Tide, Burn, and maybe permission based control like Landstill.
That's pretty hawt tech actually. I could see this thing doing something insane in the Thresh mirror.
Alright. I guess I should say what Shitlist has been doing with the deck, Now that Kadilak's Dual land Draft 2 is over. Mr.Nightmare and I, have been working on 4c gro. We both ended up 4-2. 4 colors? No, not U/g/r/w that's awful, not to mention unnessesary. We've had a different approach U/g/w/b and U/g/r/b. Turn's out Dark Confidant's crazy card advantage system was too good to pass up. Here's what I've been messing around with.
// Lands
4 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [OV] Island
// Creatures
1 [JU] Fledgling Dragon
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
4 [OD] Predict
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Counterspell
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 4 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 2 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 2 [LE] Withered Wretch
Quote:
2 [b] Underground Sea
Wtf? Awful.Quote:
SB: 2 [LE] Withered Wretch
Does the thresh mirror have wasteland? Unless you're living in germany playing against 4c gro, It doesn't matter. It cost BB you have BB, end of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablos
It's worse against Goblins. In testing I had you dead to rights if you didn't draw THREE clasms. Now Goblins actually has a decent shot at cutting you off of red. It's also worse in the mirror because it ads to color screw issues. The ONLY reason you went 4-2 and I went 1-4 is because you got to play good matchups after you went 0-2(Zompy, Goblins, 2x Solidarity).
Wasteland is an issue. I banked on not seeing them in numbers during this event, and it worked out, the only match I saw them in was vs. Dirt, and I lost. Its actually a metagame call. The bonus of playing with Bob is really great, but if you are in a field with Wastelands prevalent, 4 colors may be a stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
About time you guys made it public that you jumped on the "Bob Wagon". Bob is insane in Gro. You could also board Engineered Plague. That way Goblins really needs to cut you off of 2 Colors.
That's the thing, I wasn't dead if I was holding 3 Clasms I was never near death. Not to mention why fear wasteland? Wasteland is for chumps, I have needle for goblins. Which I didn't even board in against the goblins match-up I played, I had insane Bob adavantage against goblins and won because of it. That and him flipping 2 clasms in a row... The only time you ever fear wasteland is when it's recurring wasteland other than that shake it off and be a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
@Engineered Plague- Too narrow, to not mention I already have a great goblins match-up. Clasm > Plague in the SB, Clasm deals with randomness.