[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by klaus

Moat seems tempting at first glance. So I did a mini survey just for you. :smile:

Here is a draft of creature-based archetpyes from deckcheck.net (A-G).

>>HumilityVS.Moat.<<

Affinity----------Humility wins (Ornitopter, Hoverguard)
Aggro Loam--Moat wins (with a black splash for Confidant I'd consider it a tie)
Aluren ----------Humility wins.
Angel Stompy-----Humility wins
Berserk Stompy---Moat wins
Bomberman-------Humility wins___OK. not so relevant
Boros Deck Wins-----Moat wins
Cephalid Breakfast----Humility wins
CounterSliver-----------Humility wins (Winged Sliver)
Deadguy Ale------------Humility wins (Confidant, Specter, Stalker)
Death & Taxes---------Humility wins. (Serra Av., S. Cloaker, Mangara)
Dragon Stompy--------Humility wins (Pitdragon, Slogger,) ...almost tied.
Dreaded Fish----------Tie. (ConfidantVS.no fliers)
Dreadstill---------------Moat wins.
Elves!--------------------Moat wins (almost tie due to that Naturalize Elve)
Enchantress-----------Humility wins
Eternal Garden-------Moat wins__________also not relevant.
Faerie Stompy--------Humility wins big time
Faeries-----------------Humility wins_______not too relevant either.
Fish---------------------Dark Confidant, Avenger = Humility wins
Goblins----------------Moat wins

Sofar it's 13-7 in Humilitie's favor (almost twice as good).
Also note that in some cases in which Moat won it did so not too impressively.
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Peace.

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Just because you play Moat doesn't mean that every other piece of removal in your deck is gone. I never even said that I didn't play Humility. Usually I have 2 Moat/1 Humility. I think in the most popular matches Moat is better. Thresh decks very very rarely play any flyers anymore. Goblins does not. Survival plays very few. Warrens tokens don't fly (not that a 4 drop helps much there). Dreadnaught has trample... but still can't swim.

Your Angel Stompy decision is just plain wrong. They have 4 flying creatures compared to 5-8 equipment. The equipment is the problem here. If I can't deal with 4 angels then I guess I lose. But dealing with 4 angels seems easier than dealing with 5-8 pieces of equipment on any given creature.

That is somewhat less true in the Dragon Stompy matchup because they play 8 relevant creatures. Unless of course you are above 12, then it's back to 4 again.

I will grant you that the 3rd Stompy, Faerie Stompy, is not hampered by Moat. It is also true that Humility does not do much to stop them from equipping random 1/1 dorks and swinging for 5 and drawing a card.

Also, Affinity, Cephalid Breakfast, and Aggroloam should all have won by the time a 4 drop hits unless you can disrupt them some other way anyway. I'm more worried about GY hate in the 2nd two than stopping their creatures
most of the time anyway.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just the fact that if a deck has a flying creature then it is good against Moat. I'll take a card that nullifies all but 4-8 creatures in an aggro matchup any day. Especially when the same card nullifies entire game plans in much of the field.

I played Rabid Wombat and Humility based Landstill builds for a very long time, and they worked wonders, but it still doesn't mean that Moat does not deserve a place in a well-rounded control deck. Playing both is most powerful, but seeing as I already play Wrath and Swords and EE to deal with the 4-8 creatures left in the deck that I care about, I would rather have Moat most of the time.

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Originally Posted by rockout

I think Moat is only better when you are staring down lethal damage next turn and you rip Humility that could have been a Moat and would have saved you.

Moat does have good synergy with Elspeth, but is it a better synergy than Humility and Elspeth? In my testing, I don't think so.

If you have Moat on the board and they have no answer, but still are able to remove your only outs in the form of Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, and Elspeth through Swords, Yixid Jailer, Needle, Relic, Crypt... What do you do then? As my teammate would say, "Weep openly."

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Elspeth has great synergy with Humility, if you never want to actually win the game, or if they play more than 1 creature per turn/have more than 1 out when you drop Elspeth. She is a 1 critter per turn gal, meaning you sit there and chump once while the other creatures they have get through. I would rather ignore their other creatures and swing with a 4/4 flyer every turn, saving your removal for the few relevant creatures left in their deck.

As for them locking you out of all of your win conditions, aren't you a control deck? I'm pretty sure Landstill plays a few counterspells to stop them from removing EVERY win condition. If you can't kill a needle or a crypt before you try to win, then take the draw. If a deck can successfully remove upwards of 7 cards from my deck without me doing anything about it, then congratulations. The likelihood of that occurring seems a bit small to me though.

@Mossivo1986: Elspeth is the real deal.

@Klaus: He tried to blow up my EE @ 1 with an EE @ 1 and I said you can't do that which is why I put a frown after the statement. I felt kind of bad for him since I didn't have any 1 drops for him to kill.

I love the 3 wastelands because being able to kill a land turn 1 is just fine by me. I don't want to have to wait to get the lands to activate dust bowl, even though dust bowl is better than wasteland without crucible.

@Citrus-God: Really? I board out Elspeth against Goblins? In each game he didn't have more than 2 1/1s on the board at a time. I know boarding out a wrath wasn't the optimal choice. I should have boarded out an EE instead of a Wrath. Either way, I didn't see Humility, Wrath, or Elspeth, and at one point in game 1 I FoF into Land, Force, Brainstorm, Land, EE and he splits the pile EE/Land and Force/Brainstorm/Land and he only has a Warchief and an Aether Vial at 3. I took the Brainstorm pile thinking I would draw into an answer, but when I brainstormed I saw Land/Land/Force. I realized a turn later when he played 3x 3 drops in the form of Matron/Matron/Matron that I should have gone for and played the EE @ 3 off the FoF. I didn't know what was in his hand and digging three cards deeper with a fetch land seemed good at the time. I honestly think the optimal siding for this match-up should have been +3 BEB +2 Ajani -1 Decree -1 Tundra - 2 Krosan Grip -1 EE because each of those cards isn't that stellar in the match-up. The hardest part about this match-up was port. If I had Dustbowl, I would have been able to keep the ground locked with my two factories.

I need wrath against Dreadstill so I can play around CB. I played an EE @ 1 in game 1 on turn 3 blind not knowing if he was even playing Dreadnaught and game 2 I played EE @ 1 turn 1 and it won me the game because I can swords his Goyf all day. He showed me Krosan Grip, Trickbind, Dreadnaught the turn I killed him so EE @ 1 is pretty amazing against Dreadstill.

Against DS, game 2 I got locked out under a moon effect and had double white with 5 lands total and had 7 blue cards in my hand (no joke.) I cycled decree for two the turn I was going to die and he played pyrokinesis killing my two tokens. Game 3, I don't know if you read my tournament report, but I mulled to 4 with no land and BEB, Force, Swords, CS. He plays mountain go. I draw factory. He plays a moon effect turn 3-5. I force the first. The 2nd resolves turn 4. My response is fetchland that probably would have made the game not as bad as draw no lands. I've tested Dragonstompy more than any other deck. I was ready for it and boarded correctly. But, sometimes, the DS player just gets those insane draws, like triple moon effect against a deck that plays a lot of non-basics.

I agree with your comment about boarding. A single mistake here or there can lose a match, but all in all I think I boarded well and the deck performed like it was suppose to all day. I knew the meta was going to be Team America, Combo, and Dreadstill and DS and I came prepared to beat those decks. Sadly, I lost to one of those decks on saturday.

@BigBear: I know, I was merely joking about them getting rid of all my win conditions. Sarcasm is lost over the internet. Post your list when you get a chance with the 2/1 Moat/Humilty split. I'd like to do a little testing with it.

I don´t understand why people would EVER consider a Moat beeing better than Humility. Despite the fact that you rarely loose against 1/1 critters, it prevents Comes Into Play ability which is just insane! Moat for example does nothing against survival while humility just wins. In Klaus example it´s always like:
Moat wins, but Humility would have done nearly the same job
Humility obv wins
Moat wins, but..
Got it? Humility is t3h pwnz0rs while Moat is just "I´m expensive and worse, don´t play me!"

Greets,
NQN

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Originally Posted by NQN

I don´t understand why people would EVER consider a Moat beeing better than Humility. Despite the fact that you rarely loose against 1/1 critters, it prevents Comes Into Play ability which is just insane! Moat for example does nothing against survival while humility just wins. In Klaus example it´s always like:
Moat wins, but Humility would have done nearly the same job
Humility obv wins
Moat wins, but..
Got it? Humility is t3h pwnz0rs while Moat is just "I´m expensive and worse, don´t play me!"

Greets,
NQN

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Thresh decks very very rarely play any flyers anymore. Goblins does not.

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One reason why Moat is better than Humility.

There is also Equipment. Humility does not stop equipment, while Moat stops it on every non-flying creature.

Again, I am not saying that Moat is strictly better than Humility, I just think it is better in more of the common matchups.

I will give you that Moat blows against Survival, but if you can keep survivals off the table, then it usually buys you several turns, especially game 1. That is all Humility does against Survival most of the time anyway, because they can just keep playing 1/1 dorks. Having played both decks and agianst both cards, humility is definitely better in the match, but by no means is it game ending.

Also, this is the DTB forum, so if you could actually put some substance into your posts it would be appreciated.

As for a decklist, this is off the top of my head, but I think it's pretty close to the one I am currently running.

4x Force
4x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction

2x Engineered Explosives
3x Wrath of god
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Moat
1x Humility

2x Eternal Dragon
2x Elspeth
2x Decree of Justice

1x Academy Ruins
4x Mishras Factory
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Tropical Island
4x Island
4x Plains

SB:
3x Orim's Chant
2x Krosan Grip
4x Tormods Crypt
2x Ajani
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast

@Rockout:

Here's another tip: Never board out EEs against Goblins, especially not on the play.
Turn1 basic land->EE@1 is pretty much the best play you could possibly make, allowing you to drop LS on your following turn over Vial, and allowing you to destroy Lackey, Mogg, too.
In fact, Lackey and Vial are your worst enemies until turn 4/5 when Ringleader takes their place. So EE deserves its slot :) G2s/3s
Those 2 cards and the question whether you're able to handle them till turn2 will mostly determine the winner.

@Klaus: I agree. Turn 1, EE @ 1 against goblins is good.

@Bigbear: I don't see a wasteland effect in your deck. I'm not sure if maybe you forgot it when typing up the list or what not but please comment on that. How good is chant vs. meddling mage/runed halo in your testing? It's a one time only stop their combo versus a permanent they have to play around or deal with to win. Other than that, the list looks pretty standard and tight.

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Originally Posted by rockout

@Citrus-God: Really? I board out Elspeth against Goblins? In each game he didn't have more than 2 1/1s on the board at a time.

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That isn't an excuse for keeping Elspeth in over Wrath of God. WoG wipes the board clean of resolved Siege-Gang Commanders, Worts, Warcheifs and other stupid things. Seriously, the only excuse you have for keeping Elspeth in is because Mogg Fanatics and Matrons are scary for some reason.

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I know boarding out a wrath wasn't the optimal choice. I should have boarded out an EE instead of a Wrath.

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Dropping EE first turn is how you win games against Vial Goblins. You destroy AEther Vials, Lackeys, and other stupid things. Also, setting EEs at zero to kill tokens or at 3 to semi-wipe the board clean is awesome.

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Either way, I didn't see Humility, Wrath, or Elspeth, and at one point in game 1 I FoF into Land, Force, Brainstorm, Land, EE and he splits the pile EE/Land and Force/Brainstorm/Land and he only has a Warchief and an Aether Vial at 3. I took the Brainstorm pile thinking I would draw into an answer, but when I brainstormed I saw Land/Land/Force. I realized a turn later when he played 3x 3 drops in the form of Matron/Matron/Matron that I should have gone for and played the EE @ 3 off the FoF.

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This situation is very vague, because I tend to cast FoF in response to spells. But in this case, it depends on your hand. If you have a grip of answers and counters in your hand, taking EE would've been the right play mainly because Vial is the only reason why you should be losing that game.

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I didn't know what was in his hand and digging three cards deeper with a fetch land seemed good at the time. I honestly think the optimal siding for this match-up should have been +3 BEB +2 Ajani -1 Decree -1 Tundra - 2 Krosan Grip -1 EE because each of those cards isn't that stellar in the match-up.

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You complain about Rishadan Port and you boarded out a White/Blue source. You should board the way I suggested because it is honestly the right way to play this deck. Card advantage and having the precise answers is everything in this match up. I had experiences since 2005 to help my game against Vial Goblins, the cards you must always answer are AEther Vial and Goblin Lackey during the early stages of the game. Lackey is nuttier than it was before because apparently, throwing down insanity for like 1 mana on Turn 2 is kinda nutty. Having an artifact-pseudo Sol Ring that pumps dudes out and makes them uncounterable is even nuttier. Seriously, board the way I boarded; it's right. You have to accept that some cards are just terrible and way too slow for certain match-ups. Elspeth is one of them, and it blows against Goblins. I admit, it is amazing against Threshold and other heavier midgame Goyf decks like Aggro Loam, but that's it.

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The hardest part about this match-up was port. If I had Dustbowl, I would have been able to keep the ground locked with my two factories.

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Wastelands are better than Dust Bowl in this match up honestly. Wastelands hit Rishadan Port early allowing you to optimize earlier as well.

By the way, if you're complaining that much about Port screwing you over, why aren't you cutting the 4th Factory for a 4th Tundra? Color is more important than manlands. Your main win conditions are DoJ and Elspeth, your secondary ones are EDragon and Factories.

The lack of Wastelands was not a mistake. I wanted plenty of basics, and for Brainstorm to be optimal there has to be enough fetches. Add in the need for Mishra's to make Standstill good and you don't really have room for Wastes. I could probably put in 2, but that doesn't seem worth it.

Unless you are also playing Stifle and or Vindicate you really aren't going to disrupt much with just 4 Wastes, and it also sets you back a land. Crucible obviously changes this, but I didn't want to waste a slot on that too. If you are going to play the control game, then why would you want Wasteland? Sure it slows them down and possibly cuts them off of a color, but if that is your goal then just play Canadian Thresh/ Team America.

I used to play 4 Wastes in every Landstill build I tested, but cut it a while ago and haven't looked back since. It really doesn't fit the strategy well enough to add 4 colorless sources to a deck that wants to hit W and U on turn 1, UU on turn 2, and WW on turn 4. That gives you turn 3 to waste without actually messing up your plan too much, and at that point it's not as effective.

Upping the basic count also lessens your opponents ability to stop your development through waste lock and/or back to basics. Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

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Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

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CounterTop > Burn

If you're going to consider MD lifegain, either run Cunning Wish (and Pulse of the Fields), or run CounterTop. Personally, I think Top > FoF. But that's just me.

The problem with countertop is that it takes up 7 slots. Sure it is card advantage, but I like the hard counters in this deck. Countertop works much better when you are protecting beaters than when you are trying to control the whole game.

I'd run 1 moat / 1 humility in an enlightened tutor-based deck (something I think needs revisiting), but to the person above who is insistent Moat is better against Goblins, I'm not so sure. They can still go Matron for sharpshooter, sac guys to my prospector to keep untapping sharpshooter, use the mana to play ringleader, sac more guys, ping you for like 12.... Things they can't do under Humility. There are just so many triggered and static abilities that still do so much under Moat (Dark Confidant, for example)..

Goblins runs Skirk Prospector? Since when? Please link me a top 8 decklist.

@BigBear: I'm going to have to take your advice on wasteland and test it. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by rockout

Goblins runs Skirk Prospector? Since when? Please link me a top 8 decklist.

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Back in standard Onslaught Goblins? haha Where your Warchief doesn't get STPed right after? 2 for 1?

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Originally Posted by aldaryn

I'd run 1 moat / 1 humility in an enlightened tutor-based deck (something I think needs revisiting), but to the person above who is insistent Moat is better against Goblins, I'm not so sure. They can still go Matron for sharpshooter, sac guys to my prospector to keep untapping sharpshooter, use the mana to play ringleader, sac more guys, ping you for like 12.... Things they can't do under Humility. There are just so many triggered and static abilities that still do so much under Moat (Dark Confidant, for example)..

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Seriously people, the deck still runs removal. It's not like a Swords to plowshares or a counterspell on any one of the cards you mentioned won't keep you safe behind the moat. Against a deck with upwards of 30 critters like goblins, Moat is the better card. That is the one matchup that I am positive that Moat is better, aside from canadian thresh and shit like that.

Dark Confidant does not win them the game either, they still have to find an answer to Moat before they can do that. This again leads to you getting several extra turns to do whatever you need to win the game.

There is a reason why I run 3 Wrath, 2 Explosives, and 4 Swords and a Humility. Moat deals with most of their creatures, and there are 10 other spells in the deck to deal with the few remaining relevant creatures. Not to mention 8 hard counters and the ability to play Standstill without removing their board. If they have a Confidant out without a top Standstill is even stronger.

I fail for unfamiliarity with the format. :( Bad example i guess, but my overall point remains (about triggered/static abilities).

One question for Big Bear. Is there any reason you run 3 wraths with only 2 EE. I have been playing a build of landstill and thought the ability to reuse EE to be better than wrath of god. I just happen to be curious

Also, I dont think moat and humility can be compared. They will almost do the same in each case. Humility they will have 1/1 beat sticks, but in the same fashion, you can use your factories to do some killin'. I do not find goblins to be that hard of a matchup... Maybe the players around my area aren't very good or something but it is the fact that i counter vial or swords lackey and i have basically won.

LOOKING FOR LAST MINUTE INPUT:

Here's the list I'm going to play at a local tournament tomorrow:

--Goyf-Still--

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Counter Balance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trinket Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
1 Wrath of God
1 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydro Blast
1 Wrath of God
1 Runed Halo
2 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip
1 Serenity

The meta is going to consist of Goblins, FT, Roguestyle.dec, Merfolk, MUC, Landstill, Affinity, Ichorid, Thresh and possibly Dragon Stompy.

As always, I'm looking for last minute changes. I was tempted to replace Wrath and x with 2 Stoic Angels or even Bant Charms but I could resist :)

Is the random trinket mage really necessary. It would be understandable if there were many things that you can search but i dont believe there is enough in the list to make it worthwhile. I also think you might need some more basics. and why so many one ofs. i can understand the artifacts and the enchants but the lone trinket mage, the wrath, the ponder, and it seems like just running 2 wrath would be better.

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Originally Posted by bigbear102

Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

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I've been playing UWR Landstill for 3-4 years now, and if I have learned anything, its that the burn matchup is TERRIBLE. The clock's that landstill deck can generate are usually awful to race an opponent who just rips damage off the top of their library. You will never have as many counterspells as they have important burn spells. I really hate to have to play in a metagame where people think that burn deck is viable when any deck playing counterbalance is just an autoloss for them, but when I do have to fight against a field where people might be playing burn, I take the Blue Elemental Blasts out of my board and try to fight goblins a little less efficiently, and I substitute them for COP RED. It is my experience with TONS of testing against the burn deck, that they just can never beat a COP Red when you play it correctly. All you have to do is keep 7-8 mana available, depending on their hand size to never take damage. The downside is that you have to waste 3 sideboard slots on one specific matchup. So I know this solution has its ups and downs, but if you are have a serious problem with the Burn decks, you might consider COP Red out of the board.

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Originally Posted by klaus

LOOKING FOR LAST MINUTE INPUT:

Here's the list I'm going to play at a local tournament tomorrow:

--Goyf-Still--

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Counter Balance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trinket Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
1 Wrath of God
1 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydro Blast
1 Wrath of God
1 Runed Halo
2 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip
1 Serenity

The meta is going to consist of Goblins, FT, Roguestyle.dec, Merfolk, MUC, Landstill, Affinity, Ichorid, Thresh and possibly Dragon Stompy.

As always, I'm looking for last minute changes. I was tempted to replace Wrath and x with 2 Stoic Angels or even Bant Charms but I could resist :)

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I know you're very experienced with landstill, but this build looks pretty damn random. I like the idea of green vorosh, but I say up the enlightened tutors to three or four, and up wraths to three. This gives you more control over the board as well as your own deck. With more tutors you can drop counterbalance and top to two each, add 1 humility and 1 moat, and drop the random jank. Also, counterspell is ultimately stronger than spell snare and your deck's mana can support it. Maybe something like:
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
2 Counter Balance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Moat

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Dustbowl
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins