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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
In an effort to get away from this discussion, here is a play scenario. You are playing a game one against an unknown opponent and are on the play. You are playing Pulp_Fiction's hybrid list*. You keep this opening hand:
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Tundra
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
You lead Misty Rainforest->Island, Sensei's Divining Top. It resolves and you pass the turn. From here:
If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?
Not all of these situations have finite endings. Some are just to see how you play with limited information while trying to improve your own position.
*for reference, pulp_fiction's hybrid maindeck in shorthand
9 u-fetch
2 sea
2 tundra
1 trop
1 island
4 petal
2 mox
4 rit
2 crit
4 led
4 bs
2 ponder
4 sdt
3 chant
3 silence
1 kgrip
4 mystical
3 infernal
1 adn
1 dd
1 med
1 igg
1 toa
- If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
He passes.
You draw for the turn, play Flooded Strand for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday making the pile LED, LED, IGG, BS, ToA.
Cast BS getting LED, LED.
Play LED, LED crack'em both for UUUBBB.
Spin Top into IGG, play IGG for BS, LED, LED with UB floating.
Cast LED, LED, Brainstorm cracking LEDs in response for BBBBUUU.
Get BS with BS and cast it, get Top play it and spin it into ToA for 24 life loss.
This is not even the optimal pile, because this pile can be done with just 1 extra card in hand, you have 2. Pile by cheeseburger.
- If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
Search for protection with Top and pray he isn't playing CB. But maybe trying for a turn 3 win you should probably draw for the turn, play the fetch and play Brainstorm. Then on his EOT you break the fetch and see the Top 3. That way you get to see the maximum amount of card until next turn. Is this right?
- If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?
Doomsday, everything else is redudant. BS can be another Top, Dark Ritual can be another DR or a Cabal Ritual one turn slower. Taking the DD forces you into Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains territory.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Against Zoo the pass the turn stack, against U I'd Top in the upkeep, because there are no cards in my hand I'd like to lose. Then probably EOT fetch and look again, both times for Chant/LED and otherwise extra Dark Ritual/Ponder/Mystical(to Chant).
I think Dark Ritual is the card in hand you need the most. There are only 5 cards in your deck to replace it (actually 9 with mystical, but that's not preferred) and DDay has 8. So I think the correct choice would be the Ritual, if you didn't have Top, Brainstorm.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
@Nevamara: Do you really like Swarm? Iīve been hating him all the time. First of all, as a 2-off you wonīt have him in your opening 7 most of the time.
Then you have to fetch Tropical against decks you donīt want it (merrows,Canadian) and he doesnīt even win against Canadian.
I love Carpet of Flowers in theorie as both decks basicaly have only 4 FoW to disrupt you but win via Manadenial+daze-effects. Carpet just stops it and fuels faster wins. I havenīt had time to test it (atm dredge seems sicker to me) but I already buyed 4 Carpets :)
Sometimes Swarm is great, sometimes he's really awful that's why I cutted all of them; I wanted to add some back to my board just for merfolk and combo mirrors. Carpet didn't provide a single mana for me that tournament, cause my landstill opponent fetched for double Plateau and had Zuran Orb + Crucible + Wasteland G2.
I guess i wouldn't board Swarm in against CT, only against merfolk and when you fetch trop and play him your opponent must have the force.
I tested Carpet a little more and whenever you resolve one you win against any mana denial strategy.
Against blue I board something like this:
+4x Carpet
+1x Silence
+1x Pact of Negation
+1x Tropical Island
+2x Doomsday
-2x Cabal Rit
-3x Infernal Tutor
-2x Chrome Mox
That's pretty much the basic Plan, than add some number of K-Grips if you expect Canonist, CB, Arcane Laboratory etc, some sort of bounce or pact against Meddling Mage / Teeg.
I take out some number of Lotus Petals, but one, eventually Ad Nauseam and a single Ponder.
This depends largely on what I expect my opponent to play.
I won't contribute to the discussion about ponder vs. top. Just play whatever you like, but don't forget that there is a reason why top is banned in Extended and why many people believe it should be banned in legacy, too. I'd take 4 tops all day long.
Merry Christmas!
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
Doomsday, everything else is redudant. BS can be another Top, Dark Ritual can be another DR or a Cabal Ritual one turn slower. Taking the DD forces you into Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains territory.
Depends on what's your opponent playing, but if I'm playing discard i'm mostly discarding Brainstorm in order to avoid opponent brainstorm in response to another discard effect.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johanessen
Depends on what's your opponent playing, but if I'm playing discard i'm mostly discarding Brainstorm in order to avoid opponent brainstorm in response to another discard effect.
If you discard Brainstorm and the Opponent finds a LED with Top then you lose.
Look at top 3 on upkeep, find a LED and draw it on draw step.
Fetch for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday.
Making the basic pile: Meditate/LED/LED/Petal/ToA
Crack LED for UUU, spin Top into Meditate. Cast Meditate drawing Top, LED, LED, Petal.
Cast everything, spin Top into Tendrils cracking LEDs for BBBBBB in response for style points.
Cast Tendrils for 18!!!
Crap... let's try again.
Wait did he Thoughtseize? LOL
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?
1. My opponent plays Zoo, i assume that he has no relevant disruption in game one, but a fast clock.
Draw, play Flooded Strand, play Brainstorm, pass
eot crack fetch for Underground Sea, use Top, to set up a turn 3 Doomsday kill.
2. Upkeep use Top (to look for protection), play Flooded Strand, pass.
Keep Brainstorm/Flooded Strand for better Card quality later.
3. The opponent should take Doomsday, because the Stoorm player would be able to win with one more mana. Because of that Brainstorm is definitly the wrong decision.
He should not take Dark ritual, because the Stormplayer could hide every relevant card from discard with Brainstorm and Top until he is able to kill.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
If you discard Brainstorm and the Opponent finds a LED with Top then you lose.
Look at top 3 on upkeep, find a LED and draw it on draw step.
Fetch for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday.
Making the basic pile: Meditate/LED/LED/Petal/ToA
Crack LED for UUU, spin Top into Meditate. Cast Meditate drawing Top, LED, LED, Petal.
Cast everything, spin Top into Tendrils cracking LEDs for BBBBBB in response for style points.
Cast Tendrils for 18!!!
Crap... let's try again.
Wait did he Thoughtseize? LOL
That's true, but if you don't find led and i follow the next turn with hymn you loose too.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Happy
1. My opponent plays Zoo, i assume that he has no relevant disruption in game one, but a fast clock.
Draw, play Flooded Strand, play Brainstorm, pass
eot crack fetch for Underground Sea, use Top, to set up a turn 3 Doomsday kill.
2. Upkeep use Top (to look for protection), play Flooded Strand, pass.
Keep Brainstorm/Flooded Strand for better Card quality later.
3. The opponent should take Doomsday, because the Stoorm player would be able to win with one more mana.
1- I won on turn 2 against the Zoo, it's on the top of the page! Is there something wrong with my pile?
2- If you draw a card (1), cast Brainstorm (4), break fetch and look at top 3 wish STD (7) you looked at seven cards. If you activate the Top on upkeep you shouldn't break the fetch to play Brainstorm, because then you have no shuffling effect. So you're bound to only go off on turn 4.
3- Doomsday is much harder to replace than mana or the Brainstorm. Not taking Doomsday gives then a chance to win on the next turn, it's slim but it exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.Happy
That's true, but if you don't find led and i follow the next turn with hymn you loose too.
Loose is that argument.
They still have no clock, you have Top on the table and some lands. The game is far from over. If you find a Brainstorm on the top 3 it's even better.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
1- I won on turn 2 against the Zoo, it's on the top of the page! Is there something wrong with my pile?
Brainstorm :
Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
He passes.
You draw for the turn, play Flooded Strand for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday making the pile LED, LED, IGG, BS, ToA.
Cast BS getting LED, LED.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what cards you put back on top?
During resolution of BS you can't activate LED to discard so ...
You can't :
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
Spin Top into IGG
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miro
Brainstorm :
Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what cards you put back on top?
During resolution of BS you can't activate LED to discard so ...
You can't :
I didn't took the time to look closely at it, but you're probably putting on top the card that you drew for the turn and IGG.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
That is correct.
You Brainstorm into LED/LED/IGG and put back one irrelevant card and IGG ontop of it. You then crack both LED's for BBBUUU and draw with Top to grab your IGG and cast it, getting back LED/LED/Brainstorm. At this point you have BU floating (after using BBUU to cast IGG), so you play both LEDs, Brainstorm, and then respond to Brainstorm by cracking both LEDs and floating BBBUUU(B) again. Brainstorm resolves (you will see Top, irrelevant card, Brainstorm), get Brainstorm, put back Top and irrelevant card. At this point you have BBBBUU Brainstorm again (BBBBU), arrange it so that Tendrils is on top, and grab the Top. Play Top (BBBB), draw Tendrils with it, and Tendrils.
This is pretty much what alderon wrote, but maybe this might help clear up some confusion.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
^Thank you both.
Learning all the time.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yesmilord
That is correct.
You Brainstorm into LED/LED/IGG and put back one irrelevant card and IGG ontop of it. You then crack both LED's for BBBUUU and draw with Top to grab your IGG and cast it, getting back LED/LED/Brainstorm. At this point you have BU floating (after using BBUU to cast IGG), so you play both LEDs, Brainstorm, and then respond to Brainstorm by cracking both LEDs and floating BBBUUU(B) again. Brainstorm resolves (you will see Top, irrelevant card, Brainstorm), get Brainstorm, put back Top and irrelevant card. At this point you have BBBBUU Brainstorm again (BBBBU), arrange it so that Tendrils is on top, and grab the Top. Play Top (BBBB), draw Tendrils with it, and Tendrils.
This is pretty much what alderon wrote, but maybe this might help clear up some confusion.
Yeah, thanks. That's what I meant.
I didn't realize I had to draw up every step of the way in the freaking Storm thread.
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But do you want a different challenge? This one is mostly for fun, it's a corner case... but no impossible.
Consider you opponent is playing a white/green life link creature deck, is tapped out with no cards in hand, has you dead next turn and is at a whooping 44 life.
You are playing a Ad Nauseam/DD hybrid. You are at 11 life. Fully untapped on your first main phase.
Hand:
Tendrils of Agony, LED, Dark Ritual and Doomsday in hand
In play:
STD STD
Underground Sea/Scrubland
Top of your deck:
Krosan Grip, Tundra, Tropical Island
Can you ramp up to 21 storm + Tendrils?
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nemavera
I won't contribute to the discussion about ponder vs. top. Just play whatever you like, but don't forget that there is a reason why top is banned in Extended and why many people believe it should be banned in legacy, too. I'd take 4 tops all day long.
Top was banned for logistical reasons, because it made tournaments take forever and as a result there were an obscene amount of draws for match results.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
@alderon666
my count says you get 24 Storm + Tendrils. My proof is here. (Linked to my blog so as to not spoil the answer for those who don't want it.)
Edit: 28 storm + tendrils. cracking LEDs, no matter how impressive, does not generate storm.
Edit#2: I'm bad with this deck. 24 Storm + Tendrils. Thanks alderon666!
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
@alderon666
my count says you get 28 Storm + Tendrils. My proof is
here. (Linked to my blog so as to not spoil the answer for those who don't want it.)
Edit: 28 storm + tendrils. cracking LEDs, no matter how impressive, does not generate storm.
Didn't want to rain on your parade there, but when you make your second pile the SDT is in the top of your library, if you don't add it to your second pile, replacing a LED, you can't make SDT -> SDT (x9) on the second iteration.
Other than that that seems to be the optimal pile to build in this situation.
Even though this looks like a ludicrous situation it shows us how powerful is having Tendrils in hand. It allows you to build a pile that focuses just on mana an that helps on the Doomsday loop. The requirements are pretty standard other than the second SDT in play and Tendrils in hand, but it's just something to keep in mind when you opponent has an active Jitte with 6 counters or something.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
Didn't want to rain on your parade there, but when you make your second pile the SDT is in the top of your library, if you don't add it to your second pile, replacing a LED, you can't make SDT -> SDT (x9) on the second iteration.
Ok, fixed the math there. It's 24 Storm + Tendrils so 50 lifeloss.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I saw this list and would like to discuss:
Code:
1st - David Miņarro - TW: ANT
Maindeck:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Wipe Away
I just know that this David Minarro is a good player so I don't want to bash this build prematurely, but although it looks consistent, I just can't see any reason to play without a splash.
What sense does that make? What advantages may it bring with it? Is it built to be more persistent against TempoThresh?
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
2 Ad Nauseam and 3 Thoughtseize looks risky to me. Isn't the lifeloss too much of an issue?
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nidd
2 Ad Nauseam and 3 Thoughtseize looks risky to me. Isn't the lifeloss too much of an issue?
That's also a riddle to me.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quite a interesting list, Ive toyed with the idea of dropping white and going with just hand disruption as protection but i always figured that between their top and my own IGG id run into trouble.
Giving up green and going with purely wipeaway as splitsecond removal and ditching carpet of flowers and swarm in favor of more basic land and dark confidant+spell pierce
It certainly helps the mana base to include more basics. found myself wishing i played more of those quite often.
three thoughtseize and double ad nauseam does seem like a massive ammount of life loss. Although if you consider using thoughtseize is equal to flipping meditate/doomsday with Adn it doesnt seem that crazy. im not sold on double adn but seeing quite a few lists run two i supose that never has been a issue.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I can't really see the motivation of going UB instead of UBw, if it's not to add manabase consistency of for budget or card-lacking reasons; if it's the first case, having 2 islands and 1 swamp instead of the canonic 1 island and 1 swamp regular ANT packs doesn't seem a great deal to me..
Discard as the only protection won't carry the deck nowhere. First , because IGG is badly damaged not only against blue decks, but only against those that can recur, say, burn spells, Chants, even Extirpate or lifegain cards such as Stp. Second, discard can't do nothing against Countertop decks, who often hide their FoW or another counter on the top and they trick you taking it at the right moment; furthermore, discard is quite bad against decks with multiple counters ala Tempo Threshold.
Last but not least, if one wants to run protection in the form of discard, he surely won't do the job with only 4 duresses. Therefore, he'll be forced to pick Thoughtseize, which is bad in a list that relies quite heavily on winning via Ad Nauseam. Perhaps I could stand that configuration in multi-engine and greater threat density decks like NLS , but not in Minarro's list.
Unless he was expecting to face a meta of Chalice-based or Survival/Discard/non-blue-disruption (well, maybe 7 discards could in taking away CB) decks ONLY, Chant is such a huge protection that it's difficult to renounce to it. I'd be very eager to listen to his motivation, if he can join us or he's already on here.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I think not playing Chants is a serious mistake. They solve every problem when going off, avoid cards like Spell Snare and Stifle, and are able to handle multiple hate cards. This has ben discussed a lot, but, unless it is for budget reasons, there really isn't any good reason to run discard effects over Chants + Discard, or Chants only.
The only time I played storm without Chants .. I lost bad, simply because they weren't there. I ran 4x Duress and 4x Pyroblast in the main in a build of DDFT and that was terrible. It hated on Counterbalance something fierce, but against every other hate card, it was terrible. This kind of protection is very limited, and based on the win condition you are using it can cause problems. Chants cover all the bases whether you are winning with DD, IGG, or AdN, and even if you are winning with just rituals or throwing your hand into an LED.
The list itself is fine, but there really isn't a good reason to run only discard. 4x Chant and 3-4 Duress is fine but I am not sure why you want to run only discard spells.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quick question: Do you guys think it's possible to build a version with DD but without LED?
Or, should I ask it this way... I have 350€, is it possible to build a decent version of this deck?
I've been goldfishing countless hours with various lists and played many of them on MWS, but looking at the price of LED, I kinda lost my faith.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nidd
Quick question: Do you guys think it's possible to build a version with DD but without LED?
No. LED's the mana core of the deck, even and especially for DD shenanigans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nidd
Or, should I ask it this way... I have 350€, is it possible to build a decent version of this deck?
I've been goldfishing countless hours with various lists and played many of them on MWS, but looking at the price of LED, I kinda lost my faith.
With 350 Euros?
4 LEDs-80 ( i took mine for 55, i think that's their price atm.. of course if you are taking eGay as a referrement, you can proceed building something else).
8 U-Fetches-90
1 USea-30 (they should be 2, however)
1 Tundra-25 (high)
1 Scrubland-20 (high)
2-3 Chrome Mox-30
4 Chant-40 (very high)
4 Mystical-12
4 Petal-12
1 Ad Nauseam-3
1 IGG-3
4 D Ritual-2
4 Cabal Ritual-2
4 Duress-2
4 Bstorm-6
4 Ponder-2
1 Tendrils-1
1-2 Island-i hope you have it..
1 Swamp-i hope you have it..
Tot. 360, excluding the sideboard. But i think you already have something.. i mean, BStorm and Ponder are a must have for every Legacy player. Also, if you buy all in block, i think you can get some discount.
The Source: your Source for Wallet Help!
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
LED is like 23€ minimum here and no, I'm not looking at E-bay. The last time I checked prices there, I felt the urgent need to jump out of the window.
But it looks like I could borrow them from a buddy, so it's all cool it seems.
And no, I don't have any of the staples you mentioned, I've been playing LED-Less Ichorid for a long long time.
Thanks for your help!
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
No. LED's the mana core of the deck, even and especially for DD shenanigans.
With 350 Euros?
4 LEDs-80 ( i took mine for 55, i think that's their price atm.. of course if you are taking eGay as a referrement, you can proceed building something else).
8 U-Fetches-90
1 USea-30 (they should be 2, however)
1 Tundra-25 (high)
1 Scrubland-20 (high)
2-3 Chrome Mox-30
4 Chant-40 (very high)
4 Mystical-12
4 Petal-12
1 Ad Nauseam-3
1 IGG-3
4 D Ritual-2
4 Cabal Ritual-2
4 Duress-2
4 Bstorm-6
4 Ponder-2
1 Tendrils-1
1-2 Island-i hope you have it..
1 Swamp-i hope you have it..
Tot. 360, excluding the sideboard. But i think you already have something.. i mean, BStorm and Ponder are a must have for every Legacy player. Also, if you buy all in block, i think you can get some discount.
The Source: your Source for Wallet Help!
You can buy some cards cheaper. I bought Ad nauseam for 0.25$ and you can use Silence in the place of Chants, they are cheaper and almost equal. If you search a little can find Chrome Mox at 8, etc...
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Before I say anything I would like to mention that in no way am I condoning this but there has been an LEDless decklist on deckcheck making 3rd and 4th place in tournaments. I completely disagree with the list but here:
instant [22]
3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Pact of Negation
sorcery [14]
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
2 Tendrils of Agony
artifact [10]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
land [14]
2 Crystal Vein
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Angel's Grace
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extract
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
15 cards
This list seems very very strang to me but it may be cheaper then the traditional ANT builds.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CUB3X
Before I say anything I would like to mention that in no way am I condoning this but there has been an LEDless decklist on deckcheck making 3rd and 4th place in tournaments. I completely disagree with the list but here:
instant [22]
3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Pact of Negation
sorcery [14]
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
2 Tendrils of Agony
artifact [10]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
land [14]
2 Crystal Vein
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Angel's Grace
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Extract
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
15 cards
This list seems very very strang to me but it may be cheaper then the traditional ANT builds.
The +2 USeas (60 euros) and the +2 Chrome Moxes (20 euros) that list requires balance the cost of the traditional one, which has +4 LEDs (70 is theirs on avg) and +4 Silence (12-15). Ah, wait! There are also 2 Mox Diamonds which are 15 each, if not more. But , on the other side, there are 3 fetches missing, i.e. 30 euros.
So, the list above costs like the traditional LED-with one, with the slight difference that this one sucks straight balls- i guess it's way better to invest of Chants and LED.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Jesus, how does that deck ever find Tendrils, even off AdN? Cantrips are not tutors >_<
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
Cantrips are not tutors >_<
Unless you pair 'em with Mystical Tutors.
But yeah, I don't like the deck either.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Me and my team have been playing this deck since ad nauseam was released and we've got some good results til now:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24206
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24190
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28425
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28427
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30609
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30947
Being LLBL (Lotacy) a weekly tournament of 50 people average and LCL (Liga Catalana) a monthly tournament 80 people average.
So the deck work's good, maybe not as LED version but there is a crucial advantadge this deck gives and is that is faster and it's prepared to face tempo threshold , a very common deck in our meta
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johanessen
Tempo Threshold? You're running 3 Ad Nauseams and 2 Tendrils, meaning your AdN will be a lot suboptimal.Pair this with the fact that you run thoughtseize, and than their Bolts and Goyfs will require few time in bringing you down to death.
Plus, to beat TT you need Chants (when I play DDANT with 6 chants Tempo Threshold is literally a bye, is the matchup that I'd like to always meet at a Tourney), discard can't take off multiple hate cards- it's true that against your list, Spell Snare is less relevant because of the lack of Infernal Tutor, but it would take away Stifle at least. Plus, I don't like all those moxens, as every good player knows the more Moxes you put in ANT, the less consitent will be the average opening hand. I hated 4 moxes when playing with TES, I can't even imagine how it would be to often open hands with 1 Chrome and 1 Diamond..pure card disadvantage.
And the lack of Igg is pure suicide. Relying only on Ad Nauseam makes it a limited combo without possibility to escape bad situations or red-based-aggro if you don't get a good start, or they manage to take you under 14-15 lives-this because the very fact that you run a lot of very high-cost cards.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
Tempo Threshold? You're running 3 Ad Nauseams and 2 Tendrils, meaning your AdN will be a lot suboptimal.Pair this with the fact that you run thoughtseize
Where is he playing Thoughseize? My list (nearly the same, I run only one Tendrils, no S-Visions) has a lower Avg. Casting Cost than DDANT or StraightANT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
Plus, to beat TT you need Chants (when I play DDANT with 6 chants Tempo Threshold is literally a bye, is the matchup that I'd like to always meet at a Tourney)
Why should be Chant/Silence be better against TT than Pact of Negation?
Far from it, Pact costs 0 mana, thus you should be able to go off faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
Plus, I don't like all those moxens, as every good player knows the more Moxes you put in ANT, the less consitent will be the average opening hand
And every good player knows that you can be faster with them, sure a hand with two of them sucks, but I think with this list you will fizzle less with Ad Nauseam than with DDANT or Straight ANT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
And the lack of Igg is pure suicide. Relying only on Ad Nauseam makes it a limited combo without possibility to escape bad situations or red-based-aggro if you don't get a good start, or they manage to take you under 14-15 lives-this because the very fact that you run a lot of very high-cost cards.
Thatīs the point, LED-LESS ANT wants to be fast, you play more moxes, a "chant effect" for 0 mana so you shouldnīt come in bad situations and be able to win faster than other ANT Versions. We had the discussion about LED-LESS ANT some pages ago and
I canīt say which ANT version is the best. I think it depends on the meta.
But the most important factor is what you I like to play, some people prefer Straight ANT or DDANT, some LED-LESS ANT and as the results show all decks are able to win!
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Pact of Negation pre combo is just bad. Seriously, the only part that actually matters is the pre-combo part, after you've drawn 30 cards winning is trivial.
Pact fights one counter after you've dumped your whole hand. If you haven't resolved a Duress right before you are just playing Russian Roullete hoping your opponent doesn't have a sencond counter. Chants garantees your plan won't be disrupted without the necessity of the compromising any resources but a card and W.
Pact makes you lose the game if they Brainstorm into 2 counters or something. That will make you lose games you could have rebuilt your hand and gone off again.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Playing non-LED ANT and not playing Red/Pyro Blast just doesn't make sense, the entire point of non-LED ANT was to use Red/Pyro Blast to deter Counterbalance. Pact of Negation is garbage, and cutting the best accelerant in the deck for the worst disruption that doesn't address any of the deck's weaknesses is pointless.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Pact of Negation is actually very powerful. The only reason not to play it is because of LED.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I have a question about the Merfolk-matchup.
I am new to the boards although I have been lurking for the last year or so. I recently put together an ANT-deck, pretty standard build. I have yet to take it to a tournament but I have been testing it at my local store pitting it against the usual crowd (most archetypes are represented, the only really notable exception being Stompy/Prison-strategies).
Most decks i've played against range from easy to beat to pretty tough although managable but there is one deck that seems near impossible to beat and that is Merfolk. I lose so hard in that matchup that it really feels like I am missing something important.
First of all there are so many things to play around. Stifle+Wasteland, Daze, FoW. This, of course, slows me down because I have to play safe mana and find protection before going off. That is not a huge problem when playing against *****-decks and the worst thing coming at you for the first couple of turns is a lonely Mongoose. The problem is that Merfolk-decks couple their quite impressive disruption with a surprisingly fast clock, not leaving much room for playing slowly.
So how does one approach this matchup? Should I just ignore Stifle, FoW and to some extent Daze and just try to go off as soon as possible before he gets too much of a clock on me? Should I focus on going off with IGG instead of AdN? Should I keep playing like I do, taking it slowly and go for the sure win and accept that Merfolk is a hard matchup? Or should I just build a DD-version and start practicing piles in case a real Merfolk-meta developes here? (it's seems to be going that direction already)
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rico Suave
Pact of Negation is actually very powerful. The only reason not to play it is because of LED.
Care to elaborate on that?
Against a single counter it's AWESOME!
But in my meta people seem to carry Daze/FoW/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Stifle in their pockets, because everytime I try to go off relying on them not having/not having topdecked another counter I lose.
After you go off it's quite good too, but as I said earlier, that part rarely matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eksem
I have a question about the Merfolk-matchup.
I am new to the boards although I have been lurking for the last year or so. I recently put together an ANT-deck, pretty standard build. I have yet to take it to a tournament but I have been testing it at my local store pitting it against the usual crowd (most archetypes are represented, the only really notable exception being Stompy/Prison-strategies).
Most decks i've played against range from easy to beat to pretty tough although managable but there is one deck that seems near impossible to beat and that is Merfolk. I lose so hard in that matchup that it really feels like I am missing something important.
First of all there are so many things to play around. Stifle+Wasteland, Daze, FoW. This, of course, slows me down because I have to play safe mana and find protection before going off. That is not a huge problem when playing against *****-decks and the worst thing coming at you for the first couple of turns is a lonely Mongoose. The problem is that Merfolk-decks couple their quite impressive disruption with a surprisingly fast clock, not leaving much room for playing slowly.
So how does one approach this matchup? Should I just ignore Stifle, FoW and to some extent Daze and just try to go off as soon as possible before he gets too much of a clock on me? Should I focus on going off with IGG instead of AdN? Should I keep playing like I do, taking it slowly and go for the sure win and accept that Merfolk is a hard matchup? Or should I just build a DD-version and start practicing piles in case a real Merfolk-meta developes here? (it's seems to be going that direction already)
Daze and Cursecatcher can be played around. If you can't get a Duress in and see no FoW, or can take their only FoW then you can probably go off the next turn as they have no Brainstorm and very little draw.
You should play around Stifle on your fetchlands and try to get basics with them. I don't really play the AdN version, so I always tend to lean on DD to win as that gives me more time to accumulated protection and mana (altough that gives them more time to disrupt me too).
From my experience you have to play your disruption and at some point go for it. They run only 4 hard counters and a lot of creatures, so there's also the chance they don't have a second/third/fourth counter. But be careful with your protection, Chant is bad when you have the exact mana to go off, as their Daze becomes a hard counter unless you want to gamble of course. Watch out for Vial at #1 putting Cursecatcher in play at instant speed.
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Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alderon666
Care to elaborate on that?
I don't really play the AdN version, so I always tend to lean on DD to win as that gives me more time to accumulated protection and mana (altough that gives them more time to disrupt me too).
So would you consider a DD-version more optimal in a Merfolk-heavy meta? Well, I guess you would consider DD-versions more optimal in general since you play the DD-deck, but in the Merfolk-matchup specifically?
