[Deck] Zoo

It seems like pump spells are just limited burn spells. They can't alternate between removal and burn like bolt and such can, and set you up for getting 2 for 1'd frequently. The damage payoff for using pump instead of burn doesn't seem significant either, at best a berserk will hit a thoctar, but will usually hit a 3 or 4 power goyf or nacactl, which isn't much different from bolting their face. Using a non-berserk pump spell to have your kird ape kill their goyf seems good, but you'll find yourself wanting to bolt their confidant, painter, your own guy against ichorid, damaging ad nauseum players, etc etc more often that you'll get away with trading giant growths for tarmogoyfs.

The only pump spell I've ever felt it worthwhile to run was reckless charge, and I'm not even running that anymore. RC was good because it was worth six damage on it's own, plus oftentimes an extraswing off a nacatl you just dropped, making it more often six damageper casting; berserk doesn't seem very likely to give us more damage than that, and including the pump to support it dilutes the strength of the deck significantly.

What about Kavu+Invigorate mini-combo?

I mean, with the pump spells to add dmg, you also may use this... And invigorage is good with berserk, and STP is also good with kavu...

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Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil

What about Kavu+Invigorate mini-combo?

I mean, with the pump spells to add dmg, you also may use this... And invigorage is good with berserk, and STP is also good with kavu...

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Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.

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Thank you for sharing!

Anyways, I wanted to know if it can be useful for you in this deck or not. If you don't fell like helping, no problem then, I won't bother you anymore.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.

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Phoenix, every time I see you post anything on any part of this website, it's not really constructive. Very often, your points are legitimate, but you always make your point like an asshole. Your comments can usually be distilled to "shut the fuck up, I don't agree with you, therefore you're a moron." You should look into anger management therapy and a year's subscription to Extenze.

As far as pump spells in Zoo decks, I agree it's basically the definition of sub-optimal. Pump spells are far less flexible than burn in just about any deck that plays an aggressive strategy and uses red. But notice how I choose to make my point relatively politely.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Wow! That sounds awesome! If only there was a thread dedicated to diluting the sheer power of zoo with cutesy two-card minicombos!

Oh there is, go post in it and leave the big boys alone.

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Whoa dude. This is still Zoo we're talking about here. Yes, WoTC up and decided to print Tarmogoyf(replaced Mongrel) Nacatl(replaced Savannah Lions) and Pridemage(replaced Watchwolf)...and PtE(holy crap the deck has a removal spell that doesn't go against the strategy of the deck). Now the deck is for the "big boys"? Really? I'm glad the "big boys" finally caught on now that WoTC made the deck a little easier to pilot and a lot more competitive. Honestly, to have some of the more well known designers and tweakers looking at this deck, a deck that I was Piloting to top 8s years ago, has made me very happy. It's like being on a team for once instead of being that guy playing the stupid tier 2 Zoo deck. Now to answer Gui-Brasil.

I went a little nutty a while back and decided to throw Zoo and Berserk Stompy in a blender. Now I've done alot of testing with Berserk in a Zoo shell and found that the best, that is, most fun list, so far, is a near 50/50 hybridization of Mono G and Zoo.

[EDIT]The name of this abomination is Boston Gardens[/EDIT]
'Boston" cuz it's wicked fast.
"Gardens" is the Zoo reference parallel.

4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Skarrgan Pit Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Viashino Slaughtermaster

4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Bayou

Turn 2 and turn 3 kills made me smile like little boy who just found daddy's porno stash but I could not ever justify the conditional nature of pump spells over burn. Fun as hell to pilot? Oh yeah, but very fragile compared to Zoo.

[EDIT2]Don't even complain to me about posting weird lists in the DTB's. I was answering a question raised by Gui in this forum which happens to also answer PM's I have received from others who had the same idea.[/EDIT2]

Let's knock off the name-calling bullshit. First one who does it again in this thread gets a double-warning--foul mood I'm in.

Just wondering have you guys discussed replacing Kird apes with Goblin Guide?

Yes. The general concensus is that it hurts this deck too much compared to faster decks like goyfsligh which are much better suited to take advantage of the guide's speed.

I think some testing on the Goblin Guide is definitely called for, my biggest question is if the advantage of being able to peek at a counterbalance player's top card (creates funny bluffing situations! does the cb player put a spell on top to try to counter or does he leave a land on top to draw it from guide? do we cast spells before combat to try to catch him doing this? :D) is good enough to outweigh the disadvantage of them drawing cards by topping to put lands on top to draw them from guide's effect. also is the 2 toughness significant? obviously in a heavy zoo meta where they're still running kird ape it a little bit of a problem, but i could see it being a problem against merfolk to where all of their 2 power dudes will be able to trade with him where the kird ape would just win (unless they have a lord that you can't just blast).
Anyone else want to throw more pro's/con's out?

whats this decks answer to a tutored Progenitus , I have atleast 2 bant decks and 1 green deck using this combo.

Would Scythe Tiger be possible in this deck? Maybe a 1-2 of?

It's a 3/2 with Shroud: not a bad beater at all, and he can have fetchlands sacked to him.

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Originally Posted by erhnamdjinn

whats this decks answer to a tutored Progenitus , I have atleast 2 bant decks and 1 green deck using this combo.

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What's your bant deck's answer to a zoo rush? This deck wins fast enough that it can often ignore the turn 2 clock that those bant decks present. Elves is a little different but that's why we have sideboards. But hey, everyone loses to Progenitus sometimes, but it isn't format warping so we can't take too far away from zoo's core strategy.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Would Scythe Tiger be possible in this deck? Maybe a 1-2 of?

It's a 3/2 with Shroud: not a bad beater at all, and he can have fetchlands sacked to him.

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No? Sacing doesn't target so you can't say you're sacing a fetch and then in response sac it again to get a land. You would then have to sacrifice another land. Also, the card blows. Losing a land is always devastating in a game that revolves around tempo, especially when he's just blocked by a Goyf.

Goblin Guide and Scythe Tiger were discussed around pp 59-61 in this thread. I believe the problem with comparing GG to Kird Ape is that a lot of people are playing fewer if any Kird Apes and are relying on Lavamancer for their :r: drop.

As for Scythe Tiger, most people agreed that sacrificing lands in the current build is a bad bad idea. Also, by midgame (or even turn three), people would rather play Knight or Thoctar than a 3/2, even if it has shroud.

It seems like the heart of this deck of 4 Nacatl, Pridemage and Goyf are the only consistent auto include 4 ofs (regarding creatures, that is) and the rest is kind of up to personal or metagame choices. I don't think a lot of these choices can exactly be settled through discussion or testing since people have widely varying opinions. A lot of people swear by Knights while others still prefer Thoctar, and the same is true with Lavamancer. That's a great thing about Zoo, it's easily adaptable to be either more agrressive (almost like Goyf Sligh) or more controlling with a lot of utility creatures.

The same debate and choice comes when discussing burn spells, like Fireblast or Price of Progress. It seems like consensus on some key cards is impossible, but that's what makes this deck fun and great IMHO. [/rambling]

Hey guys, I need some help.

I tested the Zoo version that won the Starcity 5k, but I ran into some problems. Namely, I've had problems resolving Fireblast, especially against decks with Stifle and Wasteland. Even when I could, I often didn't want to sacrifice two lands, unless I had Sylvan Library out to dig for more.

I'm also not sure whether Wooly Thoctar or Knight of the Reliquary is better in the 3-mana slot. Do people side Relic of Progenitus against Zoo?
Also, is Jitte better in the maindeck or in the sideboard? In my limited experience, it was very swingy. It's clearly great if you can connect, but I lost a lot of tempo when my creature got destroyed in response to the equip.

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Originally Posted by Bongo

I've had problems resolving Fireblast, especially against decks with Stifle and Wasteland. Even when I could, I often didn't want to sacrifice two lands, unless I had Sylvan Library out to dig for more.

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Simple solution - side out fireblast agains those (mana denied) decks.

So, I'm playing in the 5k this Sunday and I'm trying to figure out the build I want to run. These are the cards I know i'm running;

4x Heath
4x foothills
2x mire
3x plateau
2x taiga
2x Savannah
1x plains
1x forest
1x mountain
1x horizon canopy

4x nacatl
4x tarmogoyf
4x pridemage
2x kird ape
2x figure
3x grim lavamancer

4x bolt
4x helix
4x path
2x library
1x jitte

So that's fifty five cards, leaving me with five spaces to fill. I'd like a 3 drop, but I'm worried that I'll want to play relic tomorrow so I'm anxious about running kotr. So I may try thoctar, even though I still think it's the weaker card. So 2x thoctar leaves me with three slots, and I'm trying to choose between fireblast and chain lightning. I feel like chain is more my play style, especially with the expected metagame.

I'm not yet sure which way I'll go.

Then there's the sideboard. I'm expecting a significant amount of goblins and zoo, so I'm looking at something like this;

2x kgrip
1x hedgemage
4x relic
4x stp
4x gaddock teeg

my one friend says he thinks combo may make a big showing, so Iight throw a few silences on my sb over some stps, or some chokes over some stps. I'm not really sure yet.

Anyone else playing in the five k? What are your thoughts?

@ hungryLIKEALION, Chain Lightning will make your Goyfs bigger sooner, without relying on your opponents. Of course, they could also make opposing Goyfs bigger. I think Fireblast is best against control, so unless you're expecting lots of control, I'd choose Chain Lightning.

I'd play 2 Jitte total (main+side), if I were to expect many creature decks (mirror, goblins, w/e).
Besides that, I play the same creature setup (+2 Thoctar), while having 3 PoP main (due to metagame reasons).

Looking forward to read your experience on 5K.

What do you think about Magma Jet? I think it is outdated in Zoo. Lightning Helix and Chain Lightning is definitely better. For example this build:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
-> I think Magma Jet isn't strong enough and a very bad burnspell. Furthermore I play with 2 Horizon Canopy in my land base and they do their Job better than Jet.

I have to disagree here, bitchtoken. Magma Jet is quite horrible as a burn spell, but it can still handle everythink from lackey to confidant and doesn't concede to countertop that easily as a chain lightning does. furthermore, it's most important ability lets you scry and gets rid of those two lands on top you don't want to see and searches for threats as efficient as library does. Canopy on the other hand is a nonbasic land where we already have more than enough of.
just my two cents.
peace

I would contest that Jet gets countered just as easily due to the prevalence of spells for two to flip, not as much as spells for one, but spell snare hits jet so we calls it even.

@hungryLIKEALION:
I had the same deal, 5 slots left and a lot of ideas on what to put there. I eventually decided on 3x Fireblast and 2x Fork. Call me janky if you wish but it's been amazing for me. Forking a Fireblast has surprised many an opponent at 8, it acts like a more expensive path/bolt/helix #5&6, and it's just incredibly fun to copy shit like fact or fiction and vindicate.

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Originally Posted by Bitchtoken

-> I think Magma Jet isn't strong enough and a very bad burnspell. Furthermore I play with 2 Horizon Canopy in my land base and they do their Job better than Jet.

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Horizon Canopy don´t do the job better imo. Magma Jet is not the best burn spell - in fact it´s quite horrible for that - but more important it´s a cantrip in this deck. You should look at it as a mix of ponder and shock. :confused: Horizon Canopy can´t be countered, but you could always find another land which is quite unlikely with Magma Jet. I would test it before you cut it.

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Originally Posted by Snief

Horizon Canopy don´t do the job better imo. Magma Jet is not the best burn spell - in fact it´s quite horrible for that - but more important it´s a cantrip in this deck. You should look at it as a mix of ponder and shock. :confused: Horizon Canopy can´t be countered, but you could always find another land which is quite unlikely with Magma Jet. I would test it before you cut it.

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In my playing, Ive found horizon canopy to be way better than magma jet for a couple reasons.

1) its a card in your hand rather than manipulating. Sure, you could draw a land, but you could also draw that clutch burn spell/creature to swing the game in your favor.
2) Knight of the Reliquary. Not only does she find the land, she gets bigger when you use it. Its win win in my book.

Canopy can be stifled too, for what thats worth, but all in all I like it more than jet.

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Originally Posted by jimmerz213

1) its a card in your hand rather than manipulating. Sure, you could draw a land, but you could also draw that clutch burn spell/creature to swing the game in your favor.

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And when you do draw the land, it still gets you past that land with a draw you wouldn't have otherwise had.

However, I think comparing canopy with magma jet is kind of silly. If you're going to compare magma jet to something, you compare it to Sylvan Library. Which it's not better than.

Somebody said it best a while back in the thread, something along the lines of, "Zoo does not need overcosted burn attached to a poor library manipulation ability." I completely agree with that sentiment.

Now all we need is someone to bring up the STP/PTE debate again. Let's keep this rolling Goblins thread!!! Oh wait, i mean Zoo thread.

The funniest part about it was, the whole magma jet was started by a guy who didn't like magma jet.

Horizon Canopy and Magma Jet are two entirely different things, like hungryLIKEALION pointed out. Even with the Sylvan Library comparison, Sylvan Library helps sculpt your hand and focus your strategies against late-game decks, while magma jet..um...

Magma jet is great for burn decks because: They need the 2 damage because of philosophy of fire (they need gas), but the 4/60 in the deck allows the burn player to dig for the finisher (fireblast/PoP), or the third crucial land for flamebreak or a 2cc + 1cc. Burn is a philosophy of fire deck in its purest form, zoo is not, and zoo does not necessarily need to dig for finishers like a combo deck (aka burn). You can call me a douchebag for quoting flores articles (I'm assuming he wrote it), but I think it applies really well to why magma jet is good in burn and bad in zoo.

Okay, I'm done now with discussing something already discussed 400 times.

Yeah, well if we learn anything from school it's that repetition is the only way for things to set in. I also don't think it's horrible to have older points brought up again. We'd like people to read the thread, but realistically we can't expect everybody to do that, so it's not hard to give a quick answer. However, bringing up old points can also be useful, since I've found that looking back at old ideas helps me focus again on the purpose of where the deck I'm working on is at.

There are three ZOO decks in top 16 of StarCityGames 5k. No reports / observations / thoughts ?

One of those was actually goyfsligj. The other two seemed pretty standard, except for the vines of vastwood in the one list. That's a cool piece of tech! I'm excited to try it out in testing. I'm going to try it in my 3 fireblast slots.

I ended up sleeping through my alarm Sunday, so I didn't go to the 5k >_>

Yea running 2 plateaus for wild nacatl does not a zoo deck make. SCG gives decks the wrong name about a 1/4 of the time. They'll list 2 decks with almost the same list one as fish the other as merfolk.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

One of those was actually goyfsligj. The other two seemed pretty standard, except for the vines of vastwood in the one list. That's a cool piece of tech! I'm excited to try it out in testing. I'm going to try it in my 3 fireblast slots

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I thought you said that pumps spells were just bad burn spells?

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

I thought you said that pumps spells were just bad burn spells?

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They are bad burn spells. Vines of vastwood is more like a counter for removal spells, with an alternate ability to pump.

Double green seems sucky to cast. I always want to have Plateau and Taiga in play or with my first two fetches.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Double green seems sucky to cast. I always want to have Plateau and Taiga in play or with my first two fetches.

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Couldn't you just replace "Plateau" with "Savannah" in that sentence and still be able to play just about everything that you wanted or needed to? I don't see why shifting the mana base slightly towards green mana production would necessarily be bad...:eyebrow:

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Couldn't you just replace "Plateau" with "Savannah" in that sentence and still be able to play just about everything that you wanted or needed to? I don't see why shifting the mana base slightly towards green mana production would necessarily be bad...:eyebrow:

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Idk, i just think that Red is the best color in the deck, especially with the manabase. And i also don't think it's worth it to splash a bad card in the deck. I'd take Chain Lightning or hell even Magma Jet over a pump spell.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Idk, i just think that Red is the best color in the deck, especially with the manabase. And i also don't think it's worth it to splash a bad card in the deck. I'd take Chain Lightning or hell even Magma Jet over a pump spell.

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But it isn't a pump spell unless you kicker it, it's primary use is to save your creature from getting Swordsed or Pathed. Sure, it can get 2 for 1-ed if they remove your guy in response to you playing it, but if you use it in response then you can save your goyf, which is obviously very favorable.