Richard feldman just wrote a primer for scg premium with a very interesting build, any thoughts?
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Richard feldman just wrote a primer for scg premium with a very interesting build, any thoughts?
I have to wait for it to go regular, soo... whats that 3 months or 6?
Ah, are we allowed to repost content from premium articles? I'm gonna start testing a new list (originating from Feldman and dubbed Fearless Dredge) that looks like this:
Maindeck:
Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ichorid
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Firestorm
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Winds of Change
The main idea is this: playing reactive sideboard cards is bad, it dilutes your hands, makes you make bad mulligan/keep decisions, and only makes it so you are playing "fair" magic. Instead this deck looks to recognize when it is intelligent to go beatdown and when it is intelligent to go combo and which plan is better against forms of expected hate. It then aims to sideboard into making the chosen plan stronger. For example against combo ichorid is far too slow so siding him out and siding in Winds of Change as breakthrough 5-7 makes the match up better since you want to combo fast. DR targets MD are typically win more, consistency is king. Elesh is great in the mirror, aggro decks, and elves combo. Leyline is a nodd to this deck getting more popular. Blightsteel is for painter's servant/other mill strategies...only required for certain metas.
My maindeck is virtually identical, -1 Thug +1 Dark Blast. That card has been pretty awesome in a wide variety of circumstances. Of course, I like that list a lot.
The sideboard I disagree with. Here is what I use:
SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
It is a giant mistake not to run Ancient Grudges -- it is a waste, even when you are carefully choosing not to overextend, to have to force crypt/relic and then have to rinse and repeat. Grudge very often lets you answer GY hate without having to go that far. Grudge doesn't take a lot of slots, and it does a lot of work. It isn't just for Artifact GY hate though, I've hit many gamewinning Vials and Jittes.
I've also stopped running Leyline for two reasons. First, I finally have a boarding plan that does consistently well against Leyline (and on a sidenote, Wheel as well). +4 Claim +3 Ray; -4 Breakthrough, -2 DR, -1 Darkblast; Obviously, it takes a lot of space, but it is worth it, as it consistently enables you to open/mulligan to a hand with an answer. After popping Leyline, you'll dredge the Rays and always have an answer up for it. And, yes, I think it is worth having a good answer to enchantment GY hate, bringing me to my second point. If Leyline is actually worth using in Dredge because we are that worried about the mirror match (and, admittedly, rare oddities like Lands, which can be handled in other ways), then the rest of the field is going to gear up on GY hate as well -- then it becomes even more important that we devote space to answering GY hate.
I appreciate the winds. For now, with my limited sideboard space, I rely upon DR targets to speed up the deck or answer something specific.
peace,
4eak
No, we are not allowed to copy-paste things from premium articles, although you can discuss them. Although, nothing you posted is big news. The list has beeing played since forever, with only minimal changes.
Firestorm is obviously good, but I dunno if necessary, for it has almost the same speed as DDD.
@4eak
I do that Darkblast instead of Thug thing too, for it is really worth. What do you think about rising the dredgers number to 13, whith the 4th Thug, making DDD chances better (for the possible show of MM)?
(My maindeck has been EXACTLY the same as yours for a while, already)
Edit: I'm stupid, Winds is clealy better than Brainstorm. ><
that sideboard has no outs to leyline of the void.
I imagine this is for more of a Combo Meta, where leyline is not seen?
I can get behind the sideboard plan pretty well except for not having outs to leyline.
(by the way. Starcity articles go regular after 1 month)
What do you people think about Chancellor of the Annex?
The Daze effect in your opening hand is the appealing part. It's certainly no Iona once it's reanimated, but it allows us to have a DR slot that isn't dead in your opening hand.
what does this site have anything to do with starcitygames?
The ideology behind the SB and MD are not mine as I said earlier. The idea is simply that by sideboarding to answer hate we dilute our plan and aim to play fair magic, which is not what this deck wants to do. Instead what it plans to do is side into a more conservative slow roll strategy for facing lots or a fast combo win vs. combo decks, it was designed for an SCG open meta and is the brain child of the combined efforts of Richard Feldman and Max McCall so I don't think it should be so readily dismissed. I am going to try it at least.
I can agree with the idea, but there's no non-reactive answer to Leyline, nor there is for a resolved planar void on turn 1. You can win against Tormod's by getting "too much stuff" into grave and then they have to sacrifice it, but if the opposing deck is fast enough, this "non-reactive" answer to tormod's will give them enough time to kill us. And Elesh won't help much if they slow us down, because you'll have to dredge for it, which won't be acomplished if tormods/leyline hit the board before you dredge, and they can sacrifice Tormod's in response to DR too, if they didn't try to slow you down.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
I can imagine they side Winds against aggro decks, trying to race them. Well,if they land Tormod's by first turn, Winds won't help much. Specially if aggro-deck-players decide to use Mental Misstep maindeck/postboard, they will be slowing us down a lot.
I think that the answer they gave to combo decks in Winds of Change (#taaaaaake me, to the legend of the moment...#) is better than siding DR targets, but I still think the answer to hate is needed, specially with so many good results posted by the deck.
I'll definitely try to fit winds in my sideboard,
If Feldmen or McCall or whoever would say that jumping from bridges is cool...would you jump too?Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
These are just name (I don't know them xD.) and they aren't god.
A lot of articles from SCG or other sites are pretty crappy.
The ideology behind the SB sounds rather dull, as you can't pretend to be in G1 again after they have sided in their hate. It is not about playing "fair" or playing Magic at all, it's about the ability to take away your opponents ability to decide if it is worth to activate his hate or not.
As 4eak said you can easily side in 4 Grudges and still kill on turn 3, because the MD is consinstat enough.
I'm currently running the Darblast as well, killing your own Ichorid befor they sword them as well as a way to deal with Peacekeeper are enough reasons for me to rum them.
Winds of Change and the idea to side them in against Combat sounds pretty good, even if I'd run something like Iona or Choosen in the Side, so we can actually use our tempo advantage (blowing them out with multiple well aimed Therapys would be the allternativ plan).
Can't say I'm surprised with the responses, sourcers are notorious for bashing new ideas. I'm not running this in a tournament without testing but I think it is worth testing. Last time someone wrote a prime it was McCall over a year ago and a lot of what he was doing was very different then most dredge players but it worked, and worked well. To get a full idea of how the deck works you would have to have a starcity premium account. I'll let those who are interested know how my testing goes.
I'll probably throw the sideboard and test it out, it's worth a shot. The MD is mine -1 thug +1 darkblast, so I know the maindeck is solid. I Top 8'd a GPT this past weekend with the deck and lost to a mistake on my part g1 of t8 and just got blown out by mull to a poor hand that got blown out by a sandbagged crypt. Thems the breaks.
I'll see if I can borrow a friends premium to look at that article when I get home from work, but the concept behind the sideboard is worth testing. I really like winds of change.
Ok, sorry if I sounded like bashing something, that was certainly not the intention. I was trying to argument against these decisions, looking forward the counter-argumentation, possibly proving me wrong. I don't know about you, but my time is short, and I tend to filter what I think is most worth of testing. I'm really into testing Winds of Change (and the song comes back to stick in mind again... >< ), and Elesh Norn is no huge news to us as well. I just don't get how this sideboard config will beat Leyline/Tormod's/Relic, which are waaay too present in my meta sideboards.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
The maindeck is solid, and a lot of people "bashing" just uses the same configuration.
The point of the deck being designed this way (SB included) is for consistency in getting a troll out fast. "A win is a win regardless how ugly." Against cards like crypt or relic, first turn therapying for them is a solid plan, also these cards aren't scary as they are board sweepers. Sandbagging a dredger is not a difficult task to do, we all do it when we play aggro against wrath effects. Also its important to recognize its not always correct to dredge every turn, draw if you have dudes on board and crypt is a threat. If you can help it don't put dread returns and ichorids from your hand into your gy unless you win that turn.
Against leyline, jailer, extirpate, extraction, etc. the plan is as follows: Siding chain of vapor as an answer to leyline is no good, game 2 you basically can't ever do it and game 3 you have to draw it as well as an acceptable dredge hand and they have to draw leyline, essentially too much has to go right. Play out some dudes and use your firestorms to hit them for some damage, lets be honest an on the board leyline is almost always gg even with chain hands. Wheel of sun and moon you just have to try to therapy away or play as you would with leyline. Extraction and Extirpate are as we know already bad weapons for fighting this deck due to its redundancy (which is weakened when you side out dredgers and what not for chain of vapors or unmasks). Yixlid Jailer, Teeg, Grunt, and other creatures are all answered by firestorm.
I agree that it feels strange to not be able to answer leyline but to be honest our "answer" for leyline was a stretch to begin with, as are all of our answers to gy hate. We have to have good dredge hands + at least 1 gy hate answer and generally by trying to draw into them or mulligan to them we slow our plan down so much they can just draw into another one. Instead why not forgo all that and play a game of chance? Aren't you already by playing dredge? Why not just hold back a dredger and a draw spell, or wait to blow your coliseum until their eot so that crypt they were holding is less useful? I think the strategy is worth testing, I'm not saying this is the new face of dredge, though others seem to think it is. If anyone else intends on testing it feel free to pm me and we can discuss results.
Disclaimer: Many of these thoughts do not originate from me, I take no credit for conceptualizing any of this strategy, rather I am simply adopting and discussing it.
I think we do understand the reasoning behind that kind of sideboard. It just will not work.
So let's have a closer look. We give up any chance of winning through Leyline of the Void, Yixlid Jailer, Wheel of Sun and Moon and multiple Crypts/Relics/Spellbombs. That's already anough reasons to drop the idea of such a sideboard already, but let's move on.
So the question is: What advantages is it going to have?
Firestorms are good cards and they're already played quite a lot. Usual sbs have space for them, so there's nothing to talk about.
Elesh Norn: Ever heard of the term 'win more'? What do you board it in against? Gobbos? Merfolks? I personally never had any problems crishing them with my main board alone and with Firestorms it's already an unfair battle.
Leyline: Still debatable. Usually one only has space for ether Firestorm or Leyline, he has room for both, Fine.
AoD: Fair enough. Some permanent destroyer is necessary for all Dredge sbs.
Ichorid: I've never needed the 4th one at all, so no option for me.
Blightsteel Colossus: If your metagame is like 90% PainterStone, it's fine. Otherwise, it's unnecessary. Absolutely unnecessary. I mean, there is no other mill deck in the format. High Tide draws you out.
Winds of Change: This is where it gets funny. The idea of Breakthroughs 5-7 is reasonable, but people, are you even serious. That card is like 10 times worse than BT. But well, if you really want your opponent to find his Force or Misstep, go run it.
No, seriously. The Dredge list is already tight. If you want to board something against storm combo I wouldn't even have room for BT 5-7. I take out all 3 Ichorids for sure. And in comes one Ancestor's Chosen and one Iona. The third thing could now be the 5th BT, but I'm also happy with the Terastodon.
EDIT: His main deck is bonkers though. I'm also running it with +1 Darkblast -1 Thug. Currently I also got one Iona main, but that's just a feeling I had...
I think there are two main questions here:
How often do you actually face an opening Leyline in both postboard games of a match?
How often do you win against an opening Leyline with your current sideboard?
______________________________________________________________________
If the answer to both of those questions is "Hardly ever" then why devote 7 valuable slots to cards that don't swing the match around... in a situation that rarely happens?
If the answer to both of those questions is "All the damn time", then you need to examine if it's the Enchantment counter-hate cards are swinging the matchup around. If they are, then keep on crushing with them. If not, what's the point?
If you do see opening Leylines all the time, and hardly ever beat them, regardless of how your board is constructed. The gigs up. Time for a new deck bro. At least until the hate dies down...
Lastly if you've hardly ever seeing Leylines, and managing to beat them when you do, you have to again examine if it is in fact the counter-hate doing the heavy lifting. Then you have to weigh the likely-hood of facing that hate against other uses for those slots.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing4Five
Yes I am cold to leyline of the void but I cannot remember the last time I saw a leyline in play. Almost no one plays it and I'd rather not use the SB slots on it, if it got really popular then reactive cards become necessary. The list I presented is perfectly capable of winning through crypt, relic, jailer, Teeg, bog, spellbomb, trap, extirpate, extraction...the only thing it loses to is leyline and wheel of sun and moon which are rarely played. And any version of deck answer or no answer loses to multiples of any of the listed hate so lets not bother with that argument.
Also obviously blightsteel is there because the deck designer's meta is heavy painter, any moron can cut that card and fill it with a 1 of target like Iona or anything of the like if the meta is not representing painter which is why I didn't bother addressing it in my other posts.
This whole 'reactive vs proactive' SB thing depends on your meta IMO. In our local store, the last 3 months there has only been a total of 2 decks running Leyline of the Void. With those kinds of numbers, you can afford flat out ignore it. I personally would keep 3 Grudge in the SB as its useful against a number of things (someone mentioned Chalice/Jitte earlier). There is no empirical right and wrong SB plan, just will give you the best chance at winning where you play.
For the most part I agree with you. If your meta involves people playing 5-6 sb cards against dredge or involves leyline/wheel of sun and moon then yes it is probably better to be prepared for some hate. Similarly if your meta is very heavy on path to exile maybe a reanimate target like Iona is in order. Overall though, in an scg meta like this list was set up for, you'll see 2-3 sb cards from your opponents if that, and mostly you will be seeing relics and crypts. Neither of these cards are scary for competent dredge players and usually it requires two crypts/relics to really cause any problem so why bother siding in 3-4 ancient grudge and potentially some nature's claims just to beat them? Grudging chalice in the one game you might see it in 9 rounds is cool and all but you can recur ichorids and flashback dread returns without one drops, it just might be slower. Similarly while jitte can be annoying it is often too slow, this deck is consistent enough to dread return on turns 2-3 (thats testing results not random numbers out of my ass.) Simply put jitte just cannot keep up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSleeper
If your meta is gunning hard for dredge then bring in some reactive cards. If you play in a typical meta that does not have a high representation of dredge and dredge hate then you don't need slow reactive cards that cause bad keep/mulligan decisions and don't actually help you win. Dredge is one of the most unfair decks in legacy, embrace and take advantage of that.
i dont understand playing Wings of Change, Tolarian Winds is 1 mana more, and u get to discard the hand, true, if youve drawn any narcomoebas, they dont go back in the deck, but i still dont see a problem with playing Tolarian Winds. u need a second land for Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough for 1 is common, and between 14-15 lands and 3-4 Careful Study, 2 lands isnt unheard of. u may state that TW is weak if they Wasteland you, but very few people in my experience want to use Wasteland vs Dredge on their second turn (on the play), much less their first turn (on the draw)
my problem is really with Careful Study, which is only good for searching for something better in the draw, discard, or land department, as it is our 'worst' -albeit most versatile- card in the deck (arguments may be made for Tarnished Citadel). i currently run 4 study and 14 land, so i figure 3/15 or 2/16 split of TW and lands is fine.
i believe this decision to be sound with upcoming release of Mental Misstep, and the consensus that it will probably replace Daze in most, though not all decks.
Yes, but is dodging Mental Misstep the right call as opposed to, say, overloading it? It's the same reason why Affinity and Enchantress don't fear Nature's Claim - It can't hit everything.
In other words, what if you replace 2 Careful Studies with lands, and then get a hand where you have the Land and a Study or Land and a Lion's Eye Diamond, whereas without it you'd have had Study/Study or LED/Study?
Study/Study requires them have a Misstep and a second counter. LED/Study requires them have a Misstep and a Force if you're smart (Misstep/Daze or Misstep/Pierce will sometimes also work if they went first.)
Study/Land becomes an unkeepable hand if it's your only outlet. The LED/Land hand can be decent, but it'll eat it hard to a Force of Will and a clock.
i was talking about replacing all 4 studys with a combination of Tolarian Winds and additional lands to up the percentage of drawing 2 lands in you first 8-9 cards. this is the second time you've made a comment about a post of mine without fully reading it correctly
as i constantly keep telling myself and others, "Read, read, read the fucking card!"
I might be going out on a limb here, but I think he is reading it correctly. It seems more like he's saying that by increasing your land count and cutting study, how many hands are you going to open that will be unkeepable in the face of countermagic or just sheer what your hand consists of compared to how many would have been unkeepable if those winds or lands had been Careful Study.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunsatzu
Study may be one of the weaker cards in the deck, it is one of my most boarded out cards, but it does have a purpose and it's versatility helps make the deck work. Im not bashing or saying it's a tubl idea, but it's one that definitely will require testing or results before really being able to say if it's worthwhile or not.
I will just stick to normal LED-less Ichorid in the future.
My Sideboard is where the Magic happens, though:
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Darkblast
1 Realm Razer
1 Terastodon/ Metaslot
Is what I will bring to the table post- NPH. Elesh Norn just completely nullifies the need for Firestorm and Chosen.I don't worry about MM too much, Blue Control decks will most likely only play max.3 of it and in other matchups it's just like having to play around Force vs Goblins (Oo)
Just 1st Turn Therapy instead of discard will do the trick I think.
So what are we supposed to do against Cephalid Breakfast? Played against it last night. Game 1 he blew me out (combo'd out turn 2). Game 2 I side boarded in Leyline of the Void. Stalled him long enough to get there with reanimated Iona. Game 3 sided in Chain of Vapor in addition (as I had forgot to game 2 in anticipation of graveyard hate from him, but he had none to speak of). Opened with Leyline and played the DDD plan for a bit until I could get there with Ichorids and Zombie tokens. Basically, I won games 2 and 3 because he simply couldn't draw relevant spells (was mostly hitting lands) (I felt like I just got lucky). So what's the game plan there? Iona on black to stop them from Dread return + Leyline of the Void to get there? That was my basic thoughts of what to do given my list.
My point still doesn't change. You're not going to solve your problems by running less discard outlets. Now you run less outlets and are 300 times more vulnerable to Daze and Thoughtseize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunsatzu
Secondly, since you complain about lack of reading, I'll start dissecting your post more. You claim people don't want to spend a Wasteland on Dredge's first land. Are you on crack? I don't know a single high tier player who wouldn't lead with wasting Dredge's land when Dredge went land, go, and didn't establish anything in the yard. That's practically an auto-play. If Dredge kept a hand and went land go, they clearly have a plan for a second land, or they wouldn't have kept the hand. Wasteland here is almost always the right play, and good players would make it.
I still think the right thing for Dredge to do is to pick up a set of Lion's Eye Diamonds, up the discard outlet count by 2 or 3, and just roll with the punches.
I don't think the LED plan is necessary. We have more then enough discard outlets compared to their 4 missteps. Its not 4 more counters in each deck, it is in place of other counters so really we face the same dangers just value your tribes and pimps higher and evaluate leading with them accordingly. If counters become a serious problem then firestorm gains even more value. LED just lowers our consistency and makes us use narrow cards.
While Feldman's SB plan was interesting I'm not sure I like it enough to stick with it. I'm thinking of bringing the following to a tournament this weekend:
Maindeck:
3x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Goglari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Tireless Tribe
4x Narcomoeba
2x Dread Return
4x Careful STudy
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:
1x Flame-Kin Zealot (combo)
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria (just wins against some decks)
1x Terastodon
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Ray of Revelation
2x Nature's Claim
4x Ancient Grudge
4x Firestorm
Some things I am still on the fence about:
-1 Golgari Thug +1 Darkblast: While I realize darkblast has utility I don't think it is necessary if I am running four Firestorm which I like in a MM meta. Also it may seem small but the one thing I liked about Feldman's list was the consistency of having 4 careful study and more dredgers that could hit for max amount of cards. My careful study and breakthroughs have felt much better with 4 thug main.
-1 Careful Study +1 Dread Return: The third dread return could be a good thing to have but I don't expect to reanimate more then two times in a game. I am considering moving a Terastodon to the MD in which case maybe a third Dread Return is right. This is the one I am most interested in other people's thoughts on as I can't decide when exactly a third DR is truly necessary.
-1 Careful Study or Thug +1 Terastodon/Angel of Despair: I like having Terastodon somewhere in the 75 for answering random cards and having him in the MD is nice because at the very least you can deny your opponent lands or kill your own to add more to your army. I would love to have him as the only DR target main so I don't lose to moat and the like but if I do this I am wondering if I need to bump up to three DR in the main.
I'd really appreciate any thoughts on the above mentioned things and the list in general, I'm also wondering if my artifact/enchantment answer collection is correct. I went through the SCG Open lists and almost no one uses Ray of Revelation and a lot of people seem to drop below 3 ancient grudge to increase the number of Nature's Claims and free up some SB slots due to the overlap. I don't mind dedicating half my board to beating hate but I do want the best mix possible. This is the one I like best atm but again criticism/thoughts are appreciated.
@Chags: The list looks good, but I'm only counting 59 cards main. Personally, I'd opt for a 4th Ichorid.
Stuff you're on the fence about:
Thug vs. DB - With the Firestorms in the board (which I think is a great choice right now), I'm not playing Darkblast at all. There have been times when I've wanted it, but all in all, I'd rather the extra dredger.
Study vs. Return - If I'm playing no MD targets (aside from Troll), I don't like more than 2 DR. Even when I'm playing Iona and FKZ main, I don't always need the 3rd copy.
Study/Thug vs. Terastodon - It's probably a meta call. If I'm playing one MD target, it's going to be Iona. I'll keep Terastodon in the SB, but I don't lose too many game 1's just because of a random permanent. It happens, but not all that much.
Re: Sideboard
For me, 4 Grudges seems like too many. Flashback is nice, but at the beginning of the game I'd like something cmc1 to answer hate. I'm also running 1 less land than you are, though.
I've never liked Ray that much, to be totally honest. I want something to answer a T-zero leyline, and again, I'd rather have Chain or Claim.
I'm running 4x Claim, 2x Chain of Vapor, 3x Grudge, and I'm pretty happy with it.
The md is 60 cards as is. For the hate answers I talked with a few people and am thinking 1 ancient grudge 4 nature's claim 2 ray of revelation. The only real hate I am scared of is leyline and wheel, the rest we can play through for the most part so loading up on claim vs grudge seems better.
I don't really get why anyone cuts an ichorid if you are not running zealot. True that ichorid is a slower path to victory. But game 1 it is inevitable if you get them in your grave, and you want them early and often so running 4 seems the best option to me. Ive been running chags 60 with -1 breakthrough ,+1 ichorid ,-1 citadel, +1 Iona for some time. Having ichorid maxed out makes for turn 2 double therapy all the more likely.
I would rather have 4 breakthrough then 4 ichorid for sure. If anything I would cut a careful study or a golgari thug for the ichorid but I don't think 4 is necessary, I haven't played with 4 in a long time. They are good for slow rolling but you rarely need to slow roll game 1 and I prefer having a high number of dredgers and discard outlets to ensure I get to dredge.
I can probably count on 1 hand out of hundreds of games that I actually cast breakthrough and it won me games without running the speed kill. True that is an amazing accelerant, but breakthrough is a risky card even game 1. A permanent discard outlet is way more important for victory and ichorid is a path to victory where breakthrough can "whiff" although it is not extremely likely. I never found a need for 4 breakthrough, but I understand why some may want to max it out, but I'd see maxing both ichorid and breakthrough to be a better choice than running 1 less of a card that will win you a game for sure if you get ichorid recurringQuote:
Originally Posted by chags
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
A permanent discard outlet is more important then nearly anything else in the deck, I did not argue that breakthrough is more important than a discard outlet. If breakthrough whiffs you are probably using it wrong, if you plan on using ichorid then you clearly have time to win so taking the time to discard dredgers before breakthroughing should be more then doable. Also with 4 thugs 4 imps and 4 trolls breakthrough does not seem to whiff very often.
Was second on 14 man tournament: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...5&iddeck=44272
Few words about the build:
Its hybrid with LED/LED-less lists.
13 lands - enough to get 2 on draw and also not so annoying when dredging too many lands - I used Undiscovered Paradise as 13th land (don't like Citadel in some aggro MU like burn etc)
MD Angel of Despair - Hate losing vs random MD hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Moat, works good - good body and always useful (u can blow up chasm for etc)
Other targets for DR - Sphinx of the Lost Truths and FKZ - normal combo package.
Discard outlets - 4 Putrid Imps, 3 LEDs, 1 Tireless was very good in speed/stability compromise.
Drawing spells - 4 Careful Study, 4 Breakthrough and additional Deep Analysis to maximize stability and gold fishing with LED.
11 Dredges and here is something new - Life from the Loam - it works so good here that i couldn't imagine.
Trick: Hand: LED, Loam, Deep A, any land, Dredger
Play land, LED crack LED for green/blue (doesn't matter), Deep A, dredge both Loam and Dredger, cast Loam -> have nuts on hand (lands for example Cephalid Coliseum with ********).
Mostly it was used as Coliseum recurring with additional dredger, and avoiding wastelands mana disrupt.
SB:
In meta was Merfolks, U/R painter, Rocks, Zoo, storm combo + other blind meta.
vs merfolks:
2 Darkblast - very useful to blow up cursecatcher waiting for bridges
3 Firestorm - obv board cleaner
vs combo:
-Iona
vs Zoo:
Ancestor's Chosen
vs Painter:
4 Ancient Grundge
vs Hate:
- Terastodon (its needed additional to Angel in Lands MU)
2 Darkblast vs Gaddock Teeg
-2 Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim vs Leyline and Wheel
-4 Ancient Grudge vs Crypts/Relics
Last word about build:
Sometimes I miss 4th Therapy but didn't know what to take off anyway it was 61 cards already.
How do you use breakthrough wrong? If you have any dredger in the grave you will want to cast it if you want to win quick. If you don't see another dredger in those top 4-6 cards it whiffs. It can happen. I run 4 of all the dredge creatures. Since I run 3 breakthrough when I have it in my hand, I am likely to not mill another breakthrough, yet a card that is useful in my graveQuote:
Originally Posted by chags
Playing breakthrough with just a golgari thug in your yard seems pretty bad. If I didn't have to win in the next turn or so I'd just dredge the thug to see if I hit something better before wasting my breakthrough on a dredge 4 whiff x3.