Want to post your full list? Did you run E. Plague like I was suggesting?
-Matt
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Want to post your full list? Did you run E. Plague like I was suggesting?
-Matt
Hey guys, just wanted to check in with a few things:
1) Blood Moon is the nuts against BUG. Played a bunch of test matches against various builds, usually game over if you can stick it, as they cast no spells the rest of the game.
2) I saw some discussion of updating the primer a few pages ago. If nobody else is doing it I'm happy to write an updated Primer / history of the deck and keep it updated, as I'm fairly invested in the archetype.
3) Here's my updated UWr list for any interested. After some testing, Venser is the real deal, and I can see the appeal of the second Karakas.
UWr Miracles - Maindeck
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
1 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon
3 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Moat
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Rest in Peace
You forgot to list 3 JTMS?
haha, yes I did. Edited now, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
I'm perfectly cool with this. It's just a question of speaking to Hanni or a moderator to have them update the actual post for you. I would receive permission before you work on the update so that your work is not in vain.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Grettings All!
I just ran UW Miracle Control at my Legacy locals last night. I had been playing delver for awhile, but recently decided it was time to shake things up. I went 3-0-1, prize splitting in the last round. I played against mono-black zombie tribal (2-0), TES (2-0), Maverick (2-1), and RUG (1-1-1). Overall I was pretty happy with the deck; see my list below:
Maindeck-60
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Rest in Peace
2 Energy Field
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
6 Islands
3 Plains
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard-15
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Detention Sphere
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
I know that there are a few portions of the deck that might be a bit loose. The first being only Entreat the Angels as the only CMC=3 in the maindeck for the Counterbalance soft lock. The second is that I don't yet own a Karakas. I am pretty sure my brother bought me one for Christmas... a few more days. The third is my inclusion of Batterskull in the sideboard over Baneslayer Angel, I haven't gotten around to fully tweaking the list yet. Overall even with those issues, the deck ran pretty well.
Round 1 - Ian with monoblack Zombie Tribal (2-0)
This match went basically as you would expect it to. He played a bunch of guys out and I use Swords to slow down his clock until I can totally reset his board with Terminus. In game one, I was able to back to back Terminus for 3 creatures and then 2 creatures, leaving him empty handed. I think I stabilized at 7 life in game one. In game two, he had a slower hand which was pretty rough for him as I was able to get Jace online and brainstroming to set both Entreats to nulify his board state. He made a wild attack, which I was able to totally blow out with a StP on a Undead Warchief. I stabilized at a healthy 17 life with Jace, Elspeth, and an army of angels.
Round 2 - TES (2-0)
I was pretty sure I was going to lose game one after a Gitaxian Probe followed by and Cabal Therapy took out the Spell Pierce in my opener. I was able to Brainstorm into Spell Pierce and Counterspell... These held him at bay while I kept digging frantically with my Top. After about 6-8 turns, I found a Counterbalance. He tried to play through it, but that was a loosing proposition. He scooped without me showing him a win condition after a 30 minute grindfest. Game two my opener was the legit nuts, 3 land, Spell Pierce, Top, Counterbalance, and a Brainstorm. He leads off again with the Probe into Therapy play, taking my Pierce. I play top and pass. He plays a Dark Confidant, which is kind of scary as I boarded out StP keeping in 3 Terminus and bringing in 2 Explosives to deal with goblin tokens mainly. I jam Counterbalance on my next turn, hoping he doesn't sacrifice Bob, taking my FoW and comboing. He does not do this... I manage to untap with the soft lock and counter basically ever play he tries to make for the rest of the game. I Helm combo him on turn 1 of extra turns and win the game on turn 2.
Round 3 - Tom playing Maverick (2-1)
Game one was pretty sick as the deck played like a combo deck. I was able to StP a Knight on turn 2, play a Rest in Peace on turn 4, and Helm him on turn 5. Seriously game one took all of about 3 minutes. Game two was similar as I mulliganed a risky one lander into a keepable 6 card hand. I drew lands for the rest of game two and quickly died to his second Knight. Game three was pretty awesome. It was a grind and I probably can't remember all of the exact details... but he ran out a turn two Aven Mindcensor off of a Nobel. At this point I had not played a fetch and was stuck trying to find a white source to deal with the 3 damage a turn coming my way. I end up cracking my fetch and luckily finding a Plains with lethal on the board in the next combat. I get the Plains and spin my Top, finding a Terminus, which puts me right back in the driver's seat as he had emptied his hand. I attrition out his creatures to a point where he is topdecking and I am just spinning Top trying to find a win con. He reestablishes a board presence and has leathal on me with a Knight. I top into RiP and Helm at the end of his turn and have exactly 7 mana on the table... So Helm combo brought home another win.
Round 4 - PJ on RUG (1-1-1)
We intentionally drew but played a few games for fun. This MU from this side is all able getting enough land from what I gathered. There were games where he was able to Stifle me and it hurt a lot. In one case, a single Stifle was able to win him a game.
Overall I was pretty happy with the deck. It played pretty well. I was never able to get RiP + Energy Field online. This might be a product of my cutting of the Enlightened Tutor(s) but as the results show, Terminus and Verdict did a fine job at keeping me alive. Helm combo was pretty much the nuts. I won more games Helming opponents out over Entreat or Jace. I will pose this thought about the RUG matchup, are you guys running a one of Mountain to stay Wateland proof? I felt a bit exposed in my RUG games with Volcanics and Fetches as my only ways to make/get to red mana. Otherwise my other queston would be able thoughts on sideboards. I new I was going into a largely aggro meta so my deck/sb reflect that. Could you guys shoot me some ideas on other cards for the board? I would appreciate that. Anyway thanks for the read.
Sulfur Elemental: I play 3 in my Sideboard, sometimes I up the count to 4. Simply because this card is awesome. Supersuperawesome. It does the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
1) Break Mother of Runes + Gaddock Teeg lock, which is basically gg. When you play Elemental in your deck you never ever have to Swords a Mother again.
2) Deals with Lingering Souls like a boss. Esperstoneblade is one of the toughest MUs, partly because of Lingering Souls. Well, you just got an uncounterable answer that wins games out of nowhere.
3) Blocks Nimble Mongoose like a Champ while being uncounterable. Though it can still be bolted.
4) Wins some matches against any deck that boards out removal. I had elelmental win matches vs NicFit or Bant Control simply because it was an uncounterable dude and the opponent had no removal left in his deck.
Orim's Thunder: An underdog card, useful for UWr-versions, obv.
Peacekeeper: Oh you boarded your removal out? Well thats game, then.
Humility (when packing Mishra's Mainboard).
-All my statements were made under the assumption that I am talking about UWr Miracle, I have no experience with any RIP/Helm/Field - buid.
Greetings
Maybe I've just been lucky, but not only have I come back from Liliana, I've come back from getting ultimated by Liliana almost every time I've faced her so far. (Admittedly, I haven't been doing formal playtesting against her, so it's not like I've faced her down many times.)Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
My strategy is basically if I can't get rid of her, to use Top to filter for permanents I can put into play (like lands, CB, Jace, more tops), and flip my Top(s) in response to her ultimate. The only permanents I'm usually left with that matter are Jace and lands. A think a wise opponent will make me choose between the two (in which case I'd probably choose the lands, unless Jace was near ultimate and I thought I could protect him). What they've ended up doing is offer me Jace plus a land or two and the rest of my lands (and maybe CB or something if it's out). In that case I take the Jace, because between the Top(s) and Jacestorming, I stand a good chance of recovering.
Overall, the Top is boss against the controllish BUG, because it lets you work around their discard. You have a virtual extra 3 cards that they can't touch, so when both players hands are empty, you actually can have the advantage.
I also have been playing 3 Mishra's main, in lieu of a color splash (I'm pure U/W), which can chew up planeswalkers after a fresh Terminus/Verdict, especially if they're playing a list with no Wastelands. (Just don't make the mistake of activating all your manlands in the face of a Pernicious Deed.) I also have Jace Beleren in the SB (currently 2, thinking of dropping it to 1 to make some room for Spell Snare), which may make the Jace war a little better (plus a Detention Sphere main and 2 O-Rings side).
I don't think CB is bad because of Abrupt Decay for the reasons stated above, but I also don't mind siding some or all out if I have better cards to bring in. I've also been considering Misdirection/Divert/Redirect, but I haven't done any testing with those yet. My thinking is that they're probably good, but I'm not sure they're good enough to make room in my SB for them. OTOH, they can also serve as defensive counterspells, Sneak Show style, so maybe they are worth it. I'll be interested to see others' reports using them.
Divert especially caught my interest, but I don't know where exactly I could afford to make room. I'm not sure how bad Abrupt Decay really is when we can bring in stuff like Baneslayer Angel that just goes over the top. Turning their Abrupts into 2-for-1s for us doesn't seem bad though. Maybe it'd be possible to switch around the countersuite to make it a 2-of MD?Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
After months of not playing the deck, i'll be running Miracle Blade today and i'm stoked! Here is the list i'm going to play:
4 Sensei's Diving Top
3 CounterBalance
3 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Entreat
3 Jace
4 Stoneforge
2 Snapcaster
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
9 Fetchlands
1 Karakas
5 Island
2 Plains
Sideboard:
3 Lingering Souls
2 Flusterstorm
2 EE
1 Supreme Verdict
1 O RIng
1 Humility
3 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Counterspell
I decided to eschew red in favor of black for the Lingering Souls against the control MU. I've been on Esper for a while, so I respect the card highly. Ghostly Prison is excellent against Goblins, which is always a reasonable expectation for my metagame. Four Stoneforge Mystics might be too many and I possibly do not have enough creatures for any more than the Batterskull in the main. If that's the case, I might cut 1 Stoneforge and the Jitte for 1 Snapcaster and one Vindicate, moving the Jitte to the side for the Counterspell. I'll try to give a report on how it goes after.
edit: I also decided not to run discard in the board because I think it does nothing in a deck like this which cannot apply pressure to abuse the information.
I ended up going 2-1. I ended up making the changes I discussed in addition to adding 1 FoW for a land, bringing my total to 21. Here is the report:Quote:
Originally Posted by learntolove6
Round 1: Devin (a good friend of mine) playing Shapewish:
The specifics of this game 1 are lost on me. I eventually set up Jace to kill him with Jace.
Game 2 I had an early Top, which is what I always want, so I felt good here. I set up a Vendilion Clique/Karakas lock on him and he eventually gets out but it kept him on literal no action for a very long time. I then had to fight through a Primeval Titan that I could have countered, but he would have returned it every turn with Volrath's Stronghold, so I let him get the lands, dropped to 4 (dead to a mountain because of 2 Valakuts) and Terminused on my draw. Eventually I drew a Jace and let him keep everything that wasn't a mountain because I only lost to a mountain. This Match-up is scary because sometimes you're just dead out of nowhere.
Round 2: Kevin with High Tide
Game 1 I kept an alright hand and he mulliganed. On turn 3 I went to Vendilion Clique him, took his Time Spiral and he had a second on top. If I took his High Tide I would have been alright, but in that match-up you always take Time Spiral if you can.
Game 2 I kept a spicy hand of Flusterstorm and Snapcaster and figured i'd get there on that. I flusterstormed a Merchant Scroll (which he desperately needed to resolve) and then he landed a Defense Grid. I drew a Jace the turn after and could no longer play the counterspell game so I ran it out, which he couldn't counter because of the grid, and let him keep another Grid on top and then just fatesealed him out.
Game 3 I my opening hand was 5 lands, Clique, and Counterbalance! It was sketchy but I know how good CB is in this match-up and I play so many spells to manipulate my library. I draw FoW on turn 2, I land CB on turn 2 while he's digging, draw a FoW on 3, Clique him on 3, to which he Tides in response to which I flip a Jace on top, so I force it. I then take his Meditate and proceed to beat him down. I play a Karakas and slam Jace and Brainstorm into a 0 and two 3 drops (the two left in the deck!). I put both 3s on top and counter the Cunning Wish I knew he had. The rest of this game was just me drawing a bunch of brainstorms and countering all of his spells while beating him down with the Clique. After the game he told me I should have been Cliqueing him every turn with Karakas, but I think that's wrong. If he countered my Clique at any point, I was screwed out of a clock, so I played it safe.
Round 3: James with BUG
Both of these games were very boring.
Game 1 He played a turn 2 Liliana, had a 1-of Daze to counter my Force of Will, ultimated Liliana 3 times and eventually played a huge Goyf.
Game 2 I kept a good hand of 3 lands, top, Jace, Clique, and a STP. He Thoughseizes my Clique, wastelands my nonbasic and I get stuck on two lands for the next 10 minutes and lose. BUG might be a bad match-up.
Overall I really enjoyed the deck. I think I played it fairly well and lost to variance, but that happens and I can't complain. I think i'll play the deck again next week for the hell of it.
lolololQuote:
Originally Posted by learntolove6
that first game was so dumb lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
Something I wrote about trying to beat abrupt decay. Anyone with other ideas, please volunteer them.
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/mir...-abrupt-decay/
Thanks Joe!Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
I enjoy reading your articles.
Two questions:
1) Where are the Meddling Mages in your sb?
2) At what point do you think Linvala replaces Baneslayer as an answer to Deathrite and/or Delver and/or Noble Hierarch, Knight of the Reliquary, Carrion Feeder, and a host of other activated abilities?
one: I am an idiot. I pasted my old list and then made the changes, and missed that one. The mages replace the 3 blasts. I altered the article so it is correct now. Sorry about that.
two: That's interesting. Baneslayer does the most work against rug delver (where linvala would be much worse), but I feel like rug delver is probably not as prominent now as it was a couple months ago. Linvala is probably better against maverick and elves. Against BUG I am not sure, although I think baneslayer is better. Deathrite is really good, and Linvala shuts it down. But if Baneslayer is in play, I would imagine that most of the time I no longer care about active Deathrite.
About the second play mistake. Just write down on scratch pad what is on the top. Who cares if they see you do this, after what you write coincides with what they play you can start writing down the wrong number to screw with them. People are pretty trusting.
Don't be so hard on yourself!Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
It's a good point about Linvala coming to the party a little late. Linvala and Baneslayer do fill functionally dissimilar roles (perhaps with a little overlap in that they are rather large flyers that do not succumb to Abrupt Decay.) Perhaps the plan vs. BUG is to focus on creature and graveyard removal, thus rendering Linvala excessive. Do you bring in GY hate vs. BUG? Moat? I could see both being good, although I hesitate to bring in E. Tutor.
My inclination would be to board out Counterbalance and bring in Baneslayer, Venser, and Supreme Verdict... maybe a Spell Snare or two. That unfortunately makes bringing in Rest in Peace pretty bad since it becomes the only target for Abrupt Decay besides Clique.
Divert becomes dead really quickly because of Deathrite, so unless it is a super land-lite build, it can be awkward. Likewise, Redirect is very clunky except against the more mid-late game BUG decks. Misdirection is probably the best all around. If you save the Counterbalance then the loss of CA doesn't matter as much. On the other hand, it can be that much more of a blow out. I think going this route is more practical if there ever becomes more of a "stock" BUG list.
Moat seems pretty bad since the only thing it stops is Goyf. Bob isn't too popular now. Tombstalker, Delver, and Deathrite all make it through.
Meddling Mage is probably your best bet if you want to leave in Counterbalance (or bring in Rest in Peace), and has value in combo MU's. I feel like Baneslayer is a big enough problem for them though that you don't have to rely on the Counterbalance soft lock. Just watch out for the mise Dismember... Maybe if you see them reboarding for g3, you can sneak back in a few Counterbalance.
Have you considered moving the enlightened tutor from the sideboard to the main removing a top? I'm going to test the following list:
2 Snapcaster mage
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser Shaper Savant
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Force of Will
3 Terminus
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
SIDEBOARD:
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Divert
1 Back to Basics
1 Enligthened Tutor
1 Flusterstorm
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Detention Sphere
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Rest in Peace
2 Baneslayer Angel
Playing 2 E. Tutor in the overal 75 allows us to hit with a back to basics against RUG or BUG. Maybe I should add more basics but a timely played back to basics wins games vs those decks. Also adding the second E. Tutor will help us to find Moat vs Goblins and Rest in Peace vs graveyard decks. 4 Tops are a bit too much when you draw the second one instead of the counterbalance. E. Tutor can be both the top or the balance we need.
Divert/misdirection I have to test them but running 2 e. tutor in my list I don't want more card disadvantage so I just added a Divert. What do you think about my list?
Divert is mostly for the early game Thoughtseize/Hymn. People are overly timid when they consider Misdirection's loss at CA. In many match-up, Misdirection should be considered as 5th FoW. If you can Misdirect against a Show and Tell's counter, or against an Abrupt Decay, the loss in CA is irrelevant.
In Miracle, you want to maximize your probability of having Turn 1 Top. Turn 1 land then Enlightened Tutor, to delay your draw, so you can draw a Top, that's unnecessarily slow. ET is a good card and it should be considered, but not the SDT slot.
Maybe you are right not shaving the top because droping an early top is always good but in a lot of games you are just dealing with first turn threats with pierces and swords anyway and I'm not sure if having an early top is more important than the versatility of the E. tutor that can be both top or counterbalance. E. Tutor with Back to basics and Moat is also very good against several difficult pairings so I will try to give room for 2 in my 75 and if I miss the top too much I will shave another card instead.
About the divert/misdirection I think if you divert a hymn it is game over because is a 3x1 and with misdirection is a 3x2 that is also good but if the same happens with a thoughtseize is a 2x1 with divert and a 2x2 with misdirection. Discard it is important in the first turns that is when Divert can be useful so against discard divert is better. Using misdirection to protect a counterbalance against an Abrupt Decay is a 2x2 so it does not provide CA but it allows us to maintain the soft lock/CA engine running but if the board is empty on their side the redirected decay will hit nothing so it wil be a 2x1 and I disagree with you about the CA. In a control deck CA is everything. For that reason I just run 3 FOW main deck. You may feel comfortable running 4 FOW against the unfair decks but some times we die because the card disadvantage it provides against the rest of the field. Maybe we should just remove the counterbalances and board in higher cost cards that they can not deal with.
And what about Redirect?Quote:
Originally Posted by cschacal
Redirect seems very mopey, I'd rather just run more Counterspells since they are more flexible in hitting creatures in those matchups and planeswalkers while being a lot better in other matchups. Even then, I usually board out some Counterspells against the aggro versions of bug so I'd rather just play some other card that wasn't a reactive UU spell.
Hello all,
For several months I’m following this topic. Today I registered myself to become an active member and share some ideas with you all.
When the miracle cards were released I immediately built an UW miracle deck. I liked the way how the deck tried to establish control with the cb-lock, although sometimes I found the deck too threat-light. This could be due my inexperience to the deck back then. I was happy when I added 2 sfm + 1 batterskull to the list, but sometimes I still thought the list was too light on threats (establishing control but not being able to cast a threat and losing control because of this). It was especially problematic to protect yourself against decks that are more or less invulnerable to cb.
With the recent printing of abrupt decay, the occasional weaknesses of cb became more prominent. I went through the same kind of thinking process like Joe did and I came to the conclusion that counterbalance is too fragile to justify it’s slots in the mainboard.
I thought that the miracles deck needs another, more general, way to drag the game into the lategame so the UW(r) deck would be able to stabilize against most of the decks in the field.
My idea was to use standstills and move CB to the board, so I could still use cb in the matches in which it is good (e.g. storm/RUG delver etc). This may sound strange, but my experiences are that standstills are good in UWr miracles. Especially when you used some resources to wipe the board. In that case standstill become a tool to refill your hand. It also is doing a good job in protecting a resolved jace. Furthermore standstill works very nice with top (card quality due filtering is nice under a standstill..) and is actually slowing down the opp. It is nice to notice that I played several games in which I break my own standstill at the end of the opp. turn by casting a huge entreat and kill the opp the next turn (preferable vs. nonblue decks..)
Here is my list.
Miraclestill:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Standstill
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Mishra's Factory
SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Moat
1 Terminus
2 Disenchant
1 Humility
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Enlightened Tutor
What im still thinking about:
- I used to play this list like +2 wasteland; -1 Celestial Colonnade; -1 crucible
My experiences were that I almost never used the wastelands to destroy nonbasics because I wanted to make my landdrops and that wastelands weren’t that needed because the list doesn’t play like an oldschool landstill list. All you need to do with this deck is making your landdrops and slow down the opponent so the brute force of your winconditions can do their job. I’m still not sure if it is right to ditch wasteland completely. This could be meta-call.
- The colonnade is there to be tested. This could also be a dust bowl, another basic, or maybe an academy ruins (in this order). The colonnade is probably too mana intensive.
- I’d like to squeeze in two vendillion cliques into this list. I don’t know what to cut. Maybe I’ve to try out -1 colonnade; -1 crucible; +2 cliques.
I’m interested in your opinions and thoughts. Hopefully we can improve this deck together.
Thanks for reading this long message!
With kind regards,
R3D
I think that is very risky to play a standstill in a metagame with snapcasters and cliques but it can be tested as well as ancestral vision to change the CA engine of the deck. The main point here is that if we consider that the counterbalances are bad in this meta and should be substituted by other cards then the tops loss a lot of value in the deck and should be changed transforming this deck into a totally different one with less weight on abusing miracle cards.
I do not like playing manland cards in decks with so few creatures because you are making the opponent removal better.
Standstill is useless. If you have done enough testing, you would have known. Based on what you have written, it's obvious that you have not played Competitive Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by R3D
First, your opponent just needs to put down turn 1/turn2 Delver or Vial or Goblin Lackey, that basically turns your Standstill into a useless card, you wish the card's a Brainstorm. You then need to EoT StP, then put down Standstill, which is a lot less frequent.
Second, with Standstill in play, you create Anti-Synergy with Miracle cards. You need to have at least W open, in case you draw Terminus. However, often you might not even Want to Termius from the Standstill cards you draw. So you end up with Terminus in your hand, now needing a Brainstorm/Jace to put that card back, good job at ruining the point of Miracle.
With CB-T in play, you have the perfect cards with CMC 2 and maybe CMC 3 cards on top of your library, do you put down Standstill? It's entirely possible for your opponent to intentionally play a spell to break Standstill, just so you don't have the CB-T lock anymore. Ok, so you don't put Standstill in play, then it's a dead card in your hand, another useless anti-synergy junk.
Standstill is not a control card. It is aggressive: play threats, drop Standstill, pressure them until they are forced to crack it or die. It doesn't work very well when literally the only pressure you have doesn't come until turn four.
Really, Counterbalance is still great against most decks. It's just not reliable against GBx anymore.
Hi,
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate it.
@ cschachal: You’re right about the manlands. That’s a good argument to consider. I haven’t had too much problems with this, because I activate mishras lategame most of the time. I also tested visions, I didn’t like it better then Standstill, because standstills are doing more work when played correctly. You're also right about standstill being an aggressive card. I don't know why it is working for me as a controlcard. Maybe I'm misleaded by something and is the deck covering up the mistake i'm making by playing standstill as a controlcard. Don't know what it is.
@twndown: You’re definitely right about the turn 1/2 threats. I considered these arguments and am still thinking about it. I also have to remark again that this list plays different then an original landstill list.
I can’t agree that I don’t play competitive legacy. I tested against several tier decks including BUG/RUG/Sneaky Show/maverick (?)/UW helm/ and several control deck. My playtesting lacks in testing the mirror and Esperblade.
About the anti-synergy: when I board in cb, most of the times I board out standstill. Drawing a terminus isn’t a problem most of the times. My experiences are that the card advantage seems to nullify the negative effect of the anti-synergy, while adding a positive effect to your resources.
@ Dzra: Maybe I have gotten to obsessed by the fear of abrupt decay destroying miracles. You’re right that cb still does a lot of good work for the deck. That’s why it is still in the sb. Maybe it still deserves a spot in the md.
Well, it seems like I’ve got a lot of work to do☺ I think this list could work (added 2 cliques now while removing 1 collonade and 1 crucible). I also realize that playing standstill seems counterintuitive. I will put some effort in this list, but also will playtest with the ordinary UWr miracles list.
R3D
Edit: it also could be that this list fits my playstyle more and that I find it more difficult to play the ordinary UWr correct.
like I mentioned in this thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ol-cards-techs
The real problems in this match-up are Deathrite Shaman and Liliana. DRS accelerates Liliana into play, or provides the extra mana to overcome spell pierce, while doing the 2 loss of life every EOT. I cannot count the number of times my opponent would first discard my counter, then follows up with Liliana. Even with CB-T in play, BUG can still resolve a Liliana, flipping a CMC 3 card in Miracle is not that easy.
Abrupt Decay in BUG is the toolbox that would take care anything problematic, CB in this match-up. I'm willing to trade my CB for AD, as long as I can keep Liliana and DRS away from the board.
@R3D: I'm with you regarding moving Counterbalance to the side. First of all, it frees up some maindeck space for other goodies, like Vendilion, which I really love; or more Snapcasters, which is also great. It also doesn't matter much that this turns on their removal spells, since this creatures do their work with ther triggered abilities. Second, you don't need to consider your CB curve, since you will most likely only bring it in when your 1s matter most (against all sorts of combo and RUG, and maybe the mirror), because that is where CB is at its best. So you don't need to fill up your maindeck with suboptimal spells just because, you know, you need another 3 for your curve. Also, as discussed, it's not very good against BUG and a lackluster against Maverick as well.
However, I don't think this deck needs another "drawing engine" instead, neither Ancestral Vision nor Standstill. I mean, this deck can generate so much card quality with Brainstorm, Top and Jace and lots of virtual card advantage with Terminus and Snapcaster/Clique already that I've never had the need for more raw card draw.
I kind of disagree here. Unless you're running Mystic, you probably can't end the game in a consistent and timely way (unlike Stoneblade). Without some way to generate CA and with little to no pressure, this deck can get (or stay) on the back foot pretty easily. In Christmas land, they'll run every single card into a Terminus and you'll win on the spot, but BUG/RUG can pretty easily apply pressure with one or two creatures at a time. I haven't given up on Counterbalance yet, but Ancestral Visions might be a decent CA alternative against Abrupt Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by TkDodo
Without Counterbalance to net you some CA NOR a decent clock you can't hope to do well with the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Against BG decks they're slightly worse but even countering a card or two before they find the Decay to remove it is already good enough.
At worst it's a 1:1 trade, at best you nail something like Liliana, Goyf or win a counter war for something relevant (Jace, Entreat).
Btw, could Granite Shard in sideboard be useful against something like gobbos?
Ancestral Vision is... alright, I guess. It's at its best if you start with it in your hand as you can cast it right away and expect cards to come after their initial assault. However, it's a really bad top deck. At least CB can possibly counter something if you top deck it. AV is just junk if you need to top deck something to win it for you. It's almost as bad as drawing a land late game due to having to wait three turns for it to do anything. It can also screw up your Miracles if you've been purposely keeping a Terminus near the top of your deck ala SDT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I just felt like sharing what I was testing at the moment. It is an extremely strange take on Miracles. I've been playing very stock lists for a loong time... I started a few months before GP Ghent. I tried pretty much everything, from Miracleblade, to creatureless Miracle, to a Miracle with alot of flashy (legendary) creatures, to a 4Counterbalancelist, then I played without Balance and so on. A friend of mine kept placing very good with takes on Miracle, that sounded strange. He was playing cards like Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Pyroclasm and even Stifle. While some of you might stop reading now, I'd like you to stay with me. I was unsure whether or not it was just due to him being a good player or to his lists being superior to mine ( 99% of the time an UWR-List, pretty stock, only a few metagame-slots from time to time ). But soon I left Miracles to toy around with BUG, another pet deck of mine. Nowadays, with BUG running rampant everywhere I thought about building Miracles again. It's main goal is not to beat Maverick any more. This led me to playing 2 Terminus only. Making it 4 Miraclespells. This, then brought me to the point of cutting a SDT. OMG, he cut a SDT?! Is he mad or just bad? Well, I hope neither nor. I've been a 4 Top advocate since the early days. Normal Miracles without 4 Tops is bullshit. But my recent list does not play alot of Miracles, and it tends to play out faster in one way or another. So, here is the list I am rocking atm.
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 flexible Slot ( could be everything, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Jace, Terminus, Verdict....everything, really )
Okay, there are a few other cardchoices many would not agree upon.
4 Snapcaster Mage - If you read my previous posts you might know that I tended to play 1-3 Snapcaster, simply due to 4 being too much (for normal Miracle), not for this variant. We play alot of Instants and Sorceries, making Snapcaster the true powerhouse he used to be.
3 Stifle - So what is this card actually doing? It can prevent us from getting wasted out of the game. It can provide a tempobonus in certain MUs where playing lands actually matters --> Mirrormatches. It disables cards that are supergood vs us, for example Pernicious Deed. It can pull off some (unexpected) tricks in a variety of matches, for example stifling a Miracletrigger or a SDT activation, or a Shaman-ability, or a Jace ultimate or like anything else. Legacy is full of triggers.
This deck should be geared pretty well to cope with all of this modern midrangestuff, bolt just adds more creatureremoval for Shaman and works just fine as a Planeswalkerremoval too. I have only been testing vs the real deck to beat of now - BUG Midrange/Control, I've only played 20 games but those tended to be rather easy, though this is not enough to state a true matchup-analysis. Maybe somebody would like to test this too? I'd be happy!
If not, I'd still appreciate your ideas and thoughts.
Greetings
I'm not a fan of Stifle in control decks. Most experienced players agree on Stifle being a spell for decks that can use the small time window to actually get there. Also, the mana denial plan is moot w/o Wasteland [I'm not advocating Wasteland for any Miracleish deck].Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Moreover I don't think the full SCM playset will pull its weight by making up for all those early games when you've got 1-2 stuck in your hand. Blade lists can balance out that downside scenario by transforming equipped 2/1ers into actual threats. Your list will never win via combat damage outside of EtA, basically leaving you with mostly useless SCM bodies. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy rocking 2-3 in my approaches, though I view them strictly as gy tutors and hate to see them in my openers most of the time.
Regarding your mana base: unless your SB boasts 6+ red cards I would recommend replacing the singleton Mountain with an Arid Mesa (which you should definitely include even if you opt to stick with that Mountain)
The thing about cutting CB is that your Storm MU decreases considerably. So unless your meta is extinct of that breed, I would keep at least two in the MD.
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On a different note: I'm currently testing 3 MD Supreme Verdicts and dig them. I'll let you guys know about future fingings on that choice.
Did you even READ the card?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_
What does it do against Goblins??
Kill a Lackey!
Do you have the time to wait turn 6 (maybe 4) to answer a Lackey?
NO.
Not at all!!
So why in the world would you play it?
Please refrain from spamming the thread with useless, untested stuff like this...
Test the card, see how it works, see what it does and then come back here.
One, maybe two games (but I don't think it would've taken that long) would've been enough to make you realize how bad that card is.
Moat is really solid at fighting Goblins and pretty much any other tribal deck. What I haven't decided on is whether Enlightened Tutor is worth a spot or not. It has a ton of synergy with the MD (and powerful SB bombs), but the card disadvantage can also set you up for a blowout.
Siege-Gang CommanderQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
No, it's not. They'll just shoot you with goblins.