@Tinefol : really like your list, very similar to mine atm.
I prefer 1 Karakas and a few other changes.
What i realised by playing i allways wanted top . So i thought of going up to 4.
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@Tinefol : really like your list, very similar to mine atm.
I prefer 1 Karakas and a few other changes.
What i realised by playing i allways wanted top . So i thought of going up to 4.
Your list looks really solid, although I think that 21 lands is not enough for a deck that tries to resolve 3-4 mana spells (Snapcaster, Jace, Vendilion) in a meta full of taxing counters and Wastelands and some amount of Stifles. Sure, you have a lot of basics, but you can also open with Tundras, in which case Wasteland really fucks you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Top is also mana intensive and sure, you have Ponders as well, but you mostly want to keep mana up to cast your Pierces and CSpells and Brainstorms to find answers when neccessary. Was the low land count never an issue for you?
It wasn't, so far (unlike in UWR case when I tried lavamancer). As you see, I run only 4 duals, and generally 2 ponders ~= an additional land. Its usually fine to burn a turn 1 ponder to find a land drop if you need one, and then you have top to help find (or avoid in case of flood) your land drops as well.
I have been mana screwed a few times, but by playing the deck I have learned when, and when not to get the dule. General if I have multiple fetches in my hand i will get a dule into a grim, if it gets wasted I tend to get an island next turn. Grim is just so good agaisnt so many decks, and when hes bad (combo) he gets sided out for the correct hate. He is slow, but slow can be good in some match ups. Cards like snapcater can be affected but generally not. I'll keep the brainstorm/spell pierce as a 1 or 2 of in my gy, and not acually use grim unless its 100% nessessary (to kill a new mom or something).
The original build acually ran delver too, so going island delver would be perfer over volc grim in most cases (except fish or maveric).
With the new build I can always slow roll him if needed. Either way hes good when hes good, and when he is not you just side board him out.
Slightly different story, but this is one of the main problems that I was having with discard in the Black splash. It's really rough to make a choice between basic Swamp (or Mountain) or having a :w: or :u: source for t2. I suppose you could always sandbag your Lavamancer until the midgame. Unlike discard, Lavamancer gets better as the game proceeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
That is exactly the reason why I think the red splash is in general superior to the black splash. Not because having access to discard is worse than having access to REB effects, but because the mana base is much more stable. If you splasah 2 volcanics, you can play 3 REBs in the board and be fine. With discard in the main deck, you have to play a couple of Scrublands as well and will mostly be fetching for duals, since you ideally want to start with :b: T1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Adding Lavamancer to the mix reduces this advantage from the red splash. You have to play a basic mountain (to make him good in the really good matchups, like Merfolk), one Plateau might be neccessary as well. Your starting hands become worse when you open with those lands, especially if you have one or two colorless lands in your deck as well. You just don't always have the perfect starting hand with 3 fetches where you can just go for basics all the time. 2 land hands might become unkeepable, you might get stuck if you get wasted once, have to waste precious Brainstorms just to find mana sources and so on.
I could go on forever, bottom line: I don't think Lavamancer is worth it, Terminus does the job just fine, and 23 lands with 9 fetches and 2-3 utility lands (colorless or Karakas) seem optimal to me for a control deck that wants to have 4 lands by turn 4.
I played 2 super Grindy games vs Maverick the other day. The black sPlash was great. Being able to hit some early discard and then Mid game Jace bounce their dude, snapcaster flash back Inquisition to discard the just bounced creature was awesome.
EE explosives was solid with Academy Ruins. Maze of ith was a pain and both games dust bowl would Of been great.
2 Ponder Main helped big vs getting wasted 3 times to find the correct cards. Jitte was impossible for me to get going bc the Qasalis and Legen Ruling. Academy ruins would of been so good but Scavenging ooze took care of my Jitte.
Great match sideboard 2 Perish would of been sick but it was casual games. Def love the black splash though!!!
Went 3-0 last night, it was supposed to be 4 rounds but the TO was OK of cutting it short since all X-1s prize. The deck ran strong not dropping a single game.
I dropped dust bowl from my list and am running 10 fetches, 6 duals, 5 basics, 1 Karakas and 1 Academy ruins. I been burned with an opening 7 with dust bowl far too many times that I hated the card. The main reason to run dust bowl I find is for Maze of Ith. Against other lands like cavern of souls and rishdan port I'm typically bringing removal for those matches.
Sideboard
- 1 Nihil Spell bomb
- 1 Tormod's Crypt
- 1 Graft Digger's cage
- 1 Disenchant
- 1 Thought Seize.
+ 3 Rest In Peace
+ 1 Pithing Needle (for 2 total)
+ 1 Vindicate
Total sb
1x JMS
1x SoF&F
2x Pithing Needle
3x RIP
2x Path to Exile
2x Perish
1x Extirpate
1x Vindicate
2x Lingering Souls
Rest in Peace is absolutely the best graveyard hate ever printed. Yes it hoses our snaps but in the matches you want to bring it in, they will hurt your opponent significantly more.
Pithing Needle has been so good I want 2 now. Maze, mom, wasteland, sdt, lilianna, Rishadan Port.
how do you guys beat elspeth? i had a game where elspeth just wreck me off with its tokens. i was strugling to kill the elspeth with only the 1/1 flyer from lingering soul.
Vindicate, Pithing Needle, and equipment are your best bets.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadakiyo
Something I've been curious about, is why doesn't Baleful Strix see play in Esperblade? It kills creatures, gets you card advantage, pitches to force of will, and carries equipment like a boss. For two mana this guy seems to do everything that a deck like esperblade would want. I mean, the downside is the body is only a 1/1, but I think this disadvantage is easily mitgated by the fact that he trades with almost any creature in combat and replaces himself when he comes into play.
You might want to reevaluate your analysis of this card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Does Baleful Strix kill creatures? No. Is it going to remove that pesky Gaddock Teeg? Thalia? Grim Lavamancer? The answer is no. Is it going to stop big fatties like Emrakul or Griselbrand? No. Does it trump Snapcaster? No.
So...what DOES the card do?
1) You spend 2 mana
2) You cantrip
3) You get a 1/1 flyer, with a semi relevant combat ability
Explain to me why this is better than cards already in the deck. It is generally better to just draw the card you want to cantrip into, without needing to waste 2 mana in the process (on a 1/1 flyer).
I think Baleful Strix is a solid card. Not sure if it's good enough to make the cut, but I think you are incredibly understating its value.
For UB, you're getting a blind cantrip for U and a 1/1 flying deathtouch for B... on 1 card. Comparatively with Dark Confidant, you're getting a 1/1 flying deathtouch vs a 2/1 body (much better, especially in a deck using Jitte), and you're getting the card immediately rather than next upkeep. If the opponent uses removal on it, you're up +1 CA (like SFM, but unlike Confidant). If the opponent doesn't use removal on it, attacking becomes a liability for them because they lose their best threat (and your still up +1 CA). It would take a Dark Confidant two upkeeps to exceed the +CA gains, which seems fruitful at best without Mother of Runes and Daze.
I realize no one is running Confidant right now, nor are they running Mother of Runes or Daze. Baleful Strix becomes alot more valuable with Mother of Runes though, completely dominating the red zone defensively. Being defensive early is what you want to be doing, while you either slowly gain card advantage to overwhelm the opponent later, or develop your position enough to drop a Jitte or Batterskull (or Jace).
The fact that he pitches to Force of Will makes him a solid option over Lingering Souls in versions that are dangerously low in blue spells for Force of Will (not necessarily a complete replacement, but maybe for 1 or 2 copies).
Still doesn't mean I'd run him mind you, I just think you underestimate him a little.
Honestly, the more I keep thinking about it, the more I keep thinking how much better off the deck would be with Mother of Runes instead of Lingering Souls (regardless of Strix). You don't need to make a bunch of 1/1 bodies to play through spot removal when you can just protect the threats you do have, and why buy some minimal amount of time by chump blocking with 1/1 fliers, when you could indefinitely block with protection from Mother of Runes? Even more importantly is the fact that Mother of Runes only costs 1 mana, where Lingering Souls costs 3. This seems far more relevant against RUG Tempo, while still being relevant against Control and Maverick.
Lingering Souls are better against Terminus, of course... but if you aren't over-committing and are able to maintain card advantage gains with guys like SFM and SCM (and maybe even Strix), I would think that matchup should be good anyways. The discard alone gives you a huge leg up against Miracles. Mother of Runes (instead of Lingering Souls) seems like it would improve your harder matchups...
Mother of Runes protecting your turn 2 SFM -> Batterskull is such a huge play. The fact that she can pick up a Jitte in the midgame is icing on the cake. It is criminally wrong to see all of these Blade Control lists, and not one of them is running Mother of Runes. =/
EDIT: Also, turn 1 Mother of Runes -> turn 2 Meddling Mage seems pretty good against Show and Tell decks in postboard games.
There was a time when I liked Mom in Stoneblade a lot... I can't really think of why that never panned out for me. It's probably somewhere earlier in the thread. /shrug I guess I'll take a look... maybe something to do with the low creature count? I'm in agreement to not being a fan of Lingering Souls though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
i am probably not as expirienced of a player like everyone else here in the threat, but i did my testings with lingering souls in the esperblade lists, and i have to say, the card is powerfull, but it feels really clunky, while the discard is just awesome
right now i think i will move away from lingering souls and test some other things. Baleful stix will definitely be one of those cards, as you can recurr her with academy ruins which i think is an awesome interaction if trying to beat a deck with few but very big guys, and as hanni allready said it is CA just like lingering souls and the other creatures we are playing. next card i will test is trinket mage (but in a straight UW stoneblade list with terminus and divining top), as it gives you exactly what you want to have
and maybe i will even try the redsplash with the izzet charm, because in theory it should improve the aggro, combo, and even control matchups a bit
as of now i have to agree with Dzra that lingering souls is not really needed maindeck and is not even the best card we could possibly run in these 2-3 slots
And tell me, when exactly do you want to include either effect in your deck over other options, hmm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
So i'm giving Esper another try. Does anyone have any opinions on bob? Is the curve too high and is he more of a liability than an asset? To try to support him i'm going to try 3 Tops, but is that too clunky? I'm running 3 Inquisition right now but maybe a 2-2 split with Cabal therapy will help when bob is becoming a liability? Anyone have experiences with him?
I guess it depends on what you're trying to be and whether that's legitimate or not. If you tend to be aggressive and are trying to force an early Stoneforge, the choice to kill an early Stoneforge over a consistent source of advantage over the course of a game could be difficult. Whether trying to force aggressive plays with a Stoneforge deck is legitimate is another thing. If you're trying to play a control game and slowly deploying threats, Confidant will probably be very lackluster since many decks will just be able to kill your threats as you slowly play them. He longer Confidant is in play, the more of an impact he'll have so he's stronger the more aggressively you play him and the less he lends himself to a controlling strategy.
I'm of the opinion that the better you are at Magic, the worse Dark Confidant is for you. If you want a card to have a certain threshold of power and kind of carry you past your lack of skill, Confidant might be the card for you. That's legitimate. If you tend to make good decisions and play well, Confidant won't really let you exploit your skills. It just does what it does.
Good to see an old Drainer is still schooling these young bucks ;)
I won some duals last weekend with Supreme Esper Stoneblade taking second to Miracletop in a close finals battle.
News flash - uncounterable wrath that pitches to Force is good. the printing of Supreme Verdict and Abrubt Decay are going to send ripples through the meta that have yet to take effect. More on that later.
Supreme Verdict turns Merfolk and Rug from negative to positive. My merfolk opponent had the god draw and I still beat him. This cards is infinity better then Terminus despite what the pundits tell you. It might not be right in Coutertop as you can't leave mana open to Top but I believe that deck will be on the decline anyway. I also crushed Goblins twice where I board into 4 Verdict, 6 spot removal with snapcaster and our namesake SFM. There were a couple times where if my goblins opponent was more skilled he would have had a chance but the deck is actually difficult to pilot correctly. I also cut Souls for Verdict. Not having Souls hurt me against Miracle top for sure, but the gains across the field with going with Supreme Verdict out weigh Souls.
Game one of the finals I kept a SFM hand with Counter back up and ended up losing for taking that line, put he resolved turn 1 top and I needed to put pressure on him. Game two was epic with me getting ahead in the early game with discard resolving batterskull and going up to 39 only to lose to Jace. I learned some important lessons here though. As much as I love Esper I am convinced splashing black is not where you want to be right now, despite it being my favorite color combination. Here's the deal, combo is at an all-time low, so the power of discard is also lower than in a more balanced meta, and Supreme Verdict nonbos with Souls. The most straight forward answer is to splash for REB as others have indicated as a way to win the Jace War and main deck Cliques as well, perhaps a Trinket mage package for Top, EE, Needle.
Against the aggro/waste decks you open yourself to mana screw. Against control discard cannot stop a top decked Jace, or Top protecting their best cards.
To summarize my meta predictions, I think we are going to see a battle over the best control deck between Supreme Stoneblade, Miracletop, and BUG control, with RUG losing power put staying competitive, Junk or Aggro loam replacing Maverick, Merfolk dying, and Goblins splashing white for Thalia being the aggro deck to beat (Thalia, Waste, Port will inhibit controls board sweepers). I also think Abrupt Decay in Junk and BUG Control will make counterbalance less attractive, plus Storm is absent and Supreme Verdict offers a superior board wipe. These development will take time to spread across the system as Legacy players can be slow to adopt and the power level of the cards makes focusing in on what matters difficult.
Decklist, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR0079
The way you asked sounds rude to me*, but I'd like to second that motion.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
SMR0079, your post piqued my interest, and I'd love to see your decklist. Did you simply take a standard Esper Stoneblade deck, replacing Lingering Souls with Supreme Verdict? How would you modify the UWr version to fit Supreme Verdict?
Your post made me think. Thanks for posting.
*: that said, I'm an ESL speaker, which might explain it
We know each other. Unfortunately, I didn't go to the tournament so I didn't get to see him pilot his deck! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
Oh, sorry. Makes a lot more sense with the context :) What tournament was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I cut Souls, and the utility land for 2 Verdict, 2nd EE, and 2 Ponder, and a 2nd plains. My board had 2 Verdict, 2 Path, 1 Vindicate, 3 CLique, 2 discard, 1 Counterspell, 4 Surgical.
Going forward I would do something like this:
4 FoW, 4 BS, 4 StP, 3 Pierce, 1 Top
2 Counterspell, 4 SFM, 4 Snapcaster, 1 Jitte (or a sword?)
3 Clique, 1 Trinket Mage
3 Jace, 2 Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 EE
SB:
4 REB
2 Verdict
2 Path
3 Surgical
1 Crypt
1 Needle
1 Jace
1 Jitte???
It was a Dual for Duals at Mirwood - the best magic venue on earth. You can get a beer, a tatoo, a haircut, a rock concert, and an apple pannette all in teh same place. Makes scrubbing out not so bad ;) 6 blue duals and a bye to the lotus cup in January were the final prizes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR0079
Thanks.
I tested a couple games on Cockatrice with Esper Stoneblade with 2 Supreme Verdict main. A top-decked Verdict actually saved me and let me win the first game I played :) Cool card.
Do you think Academy Ruins is worth it with Trinket Mage / EE / Top / Equipment? Or is that the utility land you'd cut?
My opinion on utility lands is that Academy Ruins is the only utility land worth running in Stoneblade.
Looks like a sweet list that would do damage in the hands of a great pilot! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR0079
Congratulations on your finish! I guess it shouldn't be too surprising!
(I'd really like to fit some Ponders somewhere. That card is nuts.)
@SMR,
I use trinket mage myself, but I don't see much value running it main deck with only 1 main deck target and only 1 sb target.
I also use 1 trinket mage, maindeck targets are 1 sensei´s diving top (for longer grinding games), 1 engineered explosives (to catch most legacy stuff, 1 more in sideboard) and 5. removal as a fun slot, the surprising pyrite spellbomb (perfect to kill mother of runes, protected teegs and so on), all of this stuff is supported from academy ruins. Sideboard also have some pithing needles and graveyard removal (splitt with permanent and spell based hate).Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsummon
I also tested a more "threat heavy" version, but switched back to 2 ponders for more cantrips and to make sure, that you find the right cards (also good enough to find lands against wastelands)
That's the same main deck package I run. 1 EE, 1 SDT. In my side board Im currently running 2 needles and 1 crypt as trinket targets. I used to have more bin hate targets but I've started using rest in peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
I haven't played in a real tournament in years, just smaller local stuff and was wondering if there was any glaring flaw in my esper deck?
Lands (23)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Karakas
Creatures (10)
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
Artifacts (4)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Engineered Explosives
Instants (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
Sorceries (4)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Side Deck (15)
2x Lingering Souls
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Detention Sphere
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Spell Pierce
1x Path to Exile
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Duress
1x Disenchant
I've been trying the Mishra's Factorys over Wasteland since I saw someone do it this weekend (they were copying a SSG Esper list), I used to use the Factorys back before lingering souls was a card. I'm liking them a lot, keeps jitte going and adds pressure. It has also helped kill off jaces and keep goblin lackeys at bay.
I would love to add an academy ruins main deck, engineered explosives just shuts off so many decks at the moment. Getting back a batterskull late game would also be a huge advantage shift.
Can anyone enlighten me why spell snare isnt used anymore?
It is generally cut to make room for discard since Thoughtseize and Inquisition will both hit the 2 drops (plus a lot more) with the trade-off being tempo.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadakiyo
Looks fine. If you are running factories, drop the second Counterspell for something a little less color intensive. Maybe use a 3rd Spell Pierce/5th piece of Discard or a 1x Sensei's Divining Top instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilazul
I'm not sold on the 3x Factory, rather I run the 1x Dust Bowl, 1x Academy Ruins package, with a similar decklist. My maindeck runs +1 Underground Sea/Tundra (testing both, prefering the 4th Tundra), +1 Dust Bowl, +1 Academy Ruins, +1 Sensei's Divining Top and -3 Mishra's Factory, -1 Counterspell. Personal preference really, but I find go beyond 2 colorless lands is trouble. I also find myself consistently using my lands by the end of the opponents turn (Top), so the factories didn't play well with me.
@ Spell Snare comment:
Fewer 2 drops we consistently need to stop. Too narrow in the current meta.
the factorys have actually been pretty good for me, I actually swapped over to them from running academy ruins and dust bowl (after running 3 wastelands). They've been pulling their weight for me, but it is definitely a matter of preference. I just didn't need the wastelands in most matches, and i hated dust bowl. Academy ruins is great though.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini1337s
How is running one top without a way to search for it? I might try that.
I prefer playing 1 Top alongside 1 EE MB with one Trinket Mage and another EE, Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt in the Sideboard. Worked out great for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilazul
Greetings
SMR I really like your list, the direction I've been headed in my testing. I also play at Mirkwood from time to time so I'm curious who you are lol.
Perhaps this has been answered before, but after scanning through here I couldn't find it.
It seems to me that there has been a shift from using Enlightened Tutor to find your EEs, Tormod's Crypts, Grafdigger's Cages, etc. to using Trinket Mage to find your piece. To me, the instant speed of enlightened tutor, coupled with the huge amount of draw we have in our deck make using Enlightened Tutor better. Maybe I am just missing something about Trinket Mage. Is it the 2/2 body that we need? I never seem to be lacking for a body to equip. I would love to hear others weigh in on Enlightened Tutor vs Trinket Mage.
Trinket is cardadvantage, Enlightend Tutor is carddisadvantage. Neither option is real Mainstream atm but if you don't try to fight tempo/combo strategies with your toolbox or aim for a Turn 2 counterbalance, Trinket mage is superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by zamerik
Oh yes I did, check it out
Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells [19]
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
Lands [23]
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
Sideboard [15]
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Lingering Souls
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Vindicate
Esper Stoneblade is a very well tuned list, so why add Deathrite Shaman?
I always felt it was awkward that with stoneblade that you could cheat in equipment but not have a creature available to use the equipment right away. It was missing a one drop that could pick up equipment, be in play the turn before so they are not suffering from jet lag, and be a relevant enough threat that it could be a removal magnet that would allow stoneforge to live.
Let me introduce Deathrite Shaman.
First of all he's a squire for 1 mana. That means he doesn't get 2 for 1 with forked bolt, he's big enough that he can block early mongoose and goblin lackey. He's pesky enough that he can significantly effect the out come of a game. That means he can draw removal and allow your Stoneforge mystic to make it the next turn to drop the batterskull. He's a main deck card that can effect graveyards. He has a ramp ability getting your mystic out with protection, getting your jace out earlier. If Maze of Ith is getting you down or batterskull has been destroyed, you can beat down life, non targetted no less, (sorry energy field, or player shroud effects) and attack with snap casters the deck can switch roles quite quickly. The RUG delver match up improves significantly, wastelands don't get you down as much when you can use binned lands for mana.
I'm going to give it a shot this Wednesday.