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Snip I agree that Tasigur sucks and BURG might be good. I've been enjoying BURG recently and it doesn't lose all that much from not playing Goyf. I'm fairly confident that BUG is unplayable without Goyf. Goyf is a big dumb tapout beater who can play offense and defense, which is great for a tapout aggro-midrange deck like BUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
With BURG, you can play Mongoose, True-Name Nemesis, and Vendilion Clique as replacements.
Can't wait for ya'lls to be proven dead wrong about Tasigur.
Getting to 4 mana actually isn't all that difficult for BUG. From about turns 5/6~ onwards, he becomes an immediate MUST-KILL threat that can very quickly run away with the game if left unanswered.
The downside of your opponent choosing the card can be at least partially mitigated by Delving away situationally dead cards and/or removing them as potential targets with the help of your own DRS. Worst case, 'dead' cards become Brainstorm/fetch shuffle fodder.
It is possible that the deck that best utilizes him at 3-4 copies may end up being something more closely resembling Shardless BUG/BUG-midrange (i.e. dropping Daze and/or Delver of Secrets, possibly adding Snapcaster Mage and other cards). However he's definitely awesome as creature #13-14 in BUG Delver.
Tasigur is not good in BUG Delver. It is a fine card otherwise.
This made me laugh. What a random statement. Have you played 50 test games with him as a three-of, so you drew him all the time and actually got to see how he performs? You haven't, have you?Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
If there is a deck in Legacy in which Tasigur can do some damage, it has to be a deck that has cantrips and fetches, in order to fill up the yard quickly. It has to be a deck that can defend him against whatever stuff your opponent can throw at him. BUG Delver seems the only real candidate.
Sure, he has disadvantages. Karakas makes him look very silly. So do Rest in Peace and Jace. But all support guys in this deck have their disadvantages. Stalker has no issues with Karakas, but his casting cost is more demanding. True-Name has a similarly demanding casting cost, and he is absolutely terrible against combo. Clique dies to a cough from your opponent and Ooze is a hopeless clock on its own. But none of them cost B to cast. Casting Tasigur, leaving U open for your Spell Pierce? Try that with True-Name. Tasigur has potential. Many of you are just not open minded enough to see it.
Is there a thread/post which details how to use Sylvan Library properly? I think I know... but to paraphrase Mr Rumsfeld, you don't know what you don't know.
Jam it as early as possible against combo and control opponents (even in advance of laying down a threat if that's the choice). If the choice is between casting this and Hymn, it depends on the circumstance -- like against Storm combo, you're probably safer off Hymning them, which will likely buy you a bit more time. Against control opponents I would actually prioritize getting Sylvan online ahead of resolving a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells
Once resolved, it's basically an upkeep SDT on steroids. You can aggressively pay life for cards against decks which don't really threaten your life total very quickly (e.g. Miracles), but against Bolt and aggressive decks and such you need to be more careful (although there are still instances where paying 8+ life against something Like Jund is correct if the cards you're drawing are going to bury them that turn.)
Really, it's not a card that easily fits into following hard rules as so much depends on the particular circumstance.
Ok. But if there's only one in the main deck, statistically, you might only see it 1 in 3 games? For such a powerful card, why not 2 in the main? Brainstorm and Ponder, as well as itself, can easily adjust to drawing the unwanted second copy, no?
I found having 2 sylvans to be too many in game 1. In game two, if you need it against miracles, then you board it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells
There are just too many delver decks, even after the banning to run 2 sylvans main. The sylvans are too slow in that matchup, unless you are able to push it to turn 5 and with good board control, but with those delver decks, you never know.
With Ponder, you actually run into the singleton copy of Sylvan quite frequently.
I went 5-0-1 at this week's FNM, with the following results:
Round 1: 2-0 vs budget Bant Hexproof (Giest nearly gets me but his use of Phrexian mana spells cost him the game)
Round 2: 2-0 vs UWR Blade (many much Goyf get around a few TNN)
Round 3: 2-1 vs TES (I cut him to his only out of Burning Wish game 1, other games were won by Hymn or double Hymn)
Round 4: 2-1 versus Lands (I scoop up game 1 to a Punishing Fire and Loam lock, game 2 he gets stuck on colored mana and Deathrites take over, game 3 he has triple Maze of Ith and Stage copying Maze holding back 3 Goyf and Clique, then I rip Needle and savagely name Maze)
Round 5: Draw vs Dredge (played for fun and won 2-0 on Deathrites)
Top 8: 2-0 vs UR Burn (He runs umm, Blazing Shoal? He hits me for 9 turn 1, I fight through some burn and stabilize at 6 when he sacrifices two Mountains for Fireblast on my lethal Delver without taping for mana, so I Daze it. He makes a big deal that he meant to and I am too tired to argue, so I let him have it. He loses a few turns later with no lands. Game 2 he hits me for 15 on turn 1, I play Goyf and hold down the fort, draw just enough of everything to beat him down with the lone beater.)
It's 1 am so we split.
So, I am reasonably happy with my sideboard.
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical
2 BEB
2 Disfigure
1 Winter Orb
1 K Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cage
I am considering cutting the Grip, but I am not sure for what. Possibly also the BEBs. I find I lose to Elves more than I think I should. Also, can anybody comment of the Shardless BUG matchup? I have very little experience with it.
Sorry for the hackneyed post, working from my phone.
Jim Davis is currently rocking 10:2 with a Stifle Bobby build. ..
I don't have a ton of experience against Elves, sorry. I would guess that it's just variance with 2 Disfigures and 2 Charms being a lot of good cards for the matchup. I've found Shardless to be even to slightly unfavorable, but it's very close either way. The variations in how Shardless and Delver are built seem to change the specific dynamics of the matchup, with the Strix builds lacking MD Force tending to be harder to beat than the Lejay build or the more conventional 3 Force build because they can play the attrition game better.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
The card literally does nothing when in play. You want to hold up 4 mana (who even has that kind of mana in play let alone kept untapped) to cast a marginal regrowth? I don't. It does not flip Delver, it does almost nothing until very late game and it is a nonbo w/ Goyf & DRS (unlike Treasure cruise which used to let you refill the yard very quickly).Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I saw it played and it was the nut low, I don't need to test w/ 3 of them to see how the card is bad.
I am certain it may be decent in the mirror but otherwise, I would never want even 1 in my deck.
Except be a 4/5 for B. Even if he pinged you each upkeep like Juzam he's be testable. Since he's better than that, I'm going to test him. I'm putting the odds on him being good-to-great in the mirror and pretty solid against any deck that doesn't run Karakas.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Jim Davis, any Tesugurs? I guess 0 Tesugurs is wrong.
The other Top 32 players (One on 10th I think and one on 24th place) had 2 Tasigur in they`re MD :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Jim Davis' build was with Stifle & Bob, with 13 counters. Tasigur might fit better in a traditional tapout strategy, no?
I played in a very small Legacy event on Sunday, turns out that 98% of the people that were expected at this event traveled to Indy this weekend to play instead. I played against a mono red Blood Moon brew, Merfolk, Maverick, and Infect.
Match 1 Blood Moon Brew, 0-2. T1 Blood Moon game 1, and T2 Magnus on game 2. Quickest match of Magic I've ever played.
Match 2 Merfolks 1-2. Was in commanding lead all games, except games 2 and 3 he top-decked a Relic of Progenitus the turn I would have killed him. To add insult, he had mostly Mishra's Factory and Mutavaults in play to deal the remaining damage. Bad luck.
Match 3 Maverick, 1-2. I don't exactly remember how it played out, but basically it came down to who was on the play won the game.
Match 4 Infect, 2-0. Established tempo both games, hitting resources with Wasteland, Disfigure, Lily, and Daze/Pierce.
Seeing how Maverick is making a stronger resurgence (see Top 32 SCG Indy Open), how do we best handle that deck? I play a lot against it, and I'd say I'm 40/60 to it. I play the classic TA build with 4 Hymns and 2 Lily's, 12 creature package. Seems whomever plays first has the distinct advantage, but if they game goes long usually Maverick pulls through. My experience tells me Mother of Runes is a must counter/kill on the spot. Thalia pseudo Time Walks us, and by that time a KotR or Ooze or SFM is in play. Between their DRS and Ooze, our resources get challenged. The only sure damage is Delver, which leads me to think is Tombstalker best to bring in against Mav? I tend to think the Stifle build could be better against them (everything costs 1 mana making Thalia less threatening, and Stifles protect against all of their activated abilities).
Thoughts?
Run at least 1 copy of Dread of Night. For how difficult MoR and Thalia are for BUG, there's no reason to not have at least one sideboard slot for them if your meta has those decks. After all we spend slots on stuff like Krosan Grip and whatnot. Beyond that you want some more removal in the sideboard: Massacre, Diabolic Edict, Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, Submerge, etc. Speaking of Charm, try to reduce the likelihood that you run into a Choke blowout by sandbagging Decay/Charm if possible. Rest in Peace is another speedbump they may bring in against you that you'll want to answer quickly. Null Rod is an effective way to shut off their SFM plan.
If you're running 4 Hymn, consider cutting at least some of them in games 2/3. These games tend to go long anyways and there is a possibility they have the Wilt-Leaf Liege.
You'll also want to maybe run more maindeck removal beyond just the 3-4 Abrupt Decay if you expect to run into this matchup frequently. Disfigure, Dismember, and maybe 1 Murderous Cut are all considerations. 1-2 copies of Liliana of the Veil are generally good.
Altogether this is not really a good matchup. The deck is a natural foil to Delver/tempo strategies, so unless you're seeing it all the time I wouldn't stress about it too much. Every deck has its poor matchups, and BUG Delver is no exception.
- - -
Regarding a supposed 'perfect' deck list: Not gonna happen. At least until they print enough powerful cards that are so much more powerful than alternative options. For now, there are instead plenty of Tier 1 cards to choose from that have their relative power dependent upon particular scenarios.
There are about 50~ cards we can all pretty much agree on for this archetype, but beyond that the the final few choices come down to metagame, how the rest of your deck & sideboard is configured, and plain dumb luck (i.e. which decks you end up facing and dodging in a tournament). For example, some tournaments you'll feel like a genius for running some Submerge in the sideboard, in others you'd wish you'd have packed more general removal.
Tasigur is similar. In some matchups you'll be glad you packed him and he's arguably the best threat in the deck. In other matchups you'll cut him in games 2 and 3 every time. I think he probably works best in a tap-out Hymn list that builds up its graveyard quickly and demands an early answer. The same is true of all other additional threats: some matchups they are nuts; in others they are nearly worthless.
My prediction is that BGx decks will become more popular in the coming weeks, making Tasigur a solid choice.
Personally, I've not had much luck running Stifle builds ever since around the time DRS entered the format. Part of it may be the general paranoia of my local opponents' always playing around Stifle, but in general I find nabbing a Fetchland or stopping most triggered effects is not quite as powerful as a well-timed and sufficiently lucky Hymn. That said, results don't lie and obviously a Stifle list is capable of taking down a tournament.
This argument wasn't about Stifle vs. Hymn. it was about the reasons to not be playing Lightning Bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
correct, but the stifle argument he presented was going towards playing RUG, which means to play bolt. In rug you do not play hymn. Then the counter argument was if you play stifle in bug, you cannot play hymn.Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
Hence, you need to consider the hymn factor when deciding to play RUG or BUG, or Stifle/hymn/bolt
Yes, I believe you are correct. When playing BUG I do feel like you need to decide whether to play Stifle or Hymn. However, whichever one you choose is going to change your mana base accordingly. When playing Stifle there is no need to play Bayou, and that's the entire reason why I don't bother playing Hymn in BUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
1) I don't have to play Bayou which doesn't cast my blue spells or bounce for Daze.
2) Hymn doesn't impact the board when drawn. Stifle is marginally better at this.
3) With the increase of people running Wasteland again, it's nice to be able to protect our lands with Stifle from opposing Wastelands
4) Stifle pitches to Force of Will
5) Stifle still allows for free wins from time to time alongside Wasteland and Daze
6) I can also run less lands (18) as opposed to the hymn lists that want 19 or 20 lands in their lists.
So my personal testing and opinions lean more towards the stifle build than towards the hymn build.
Vs the D&T / Maverick decks, TNN is also problematic for them as the have very few ways to deal with it.
Vs Maverick, I also particularly like Virtue's Ruin since it deals with KoTR and they're less swarmy than D&T. You also have a better chance getting to more mana since you don't have to fight Port.
For those of you who have tested Tasigur, what is the consensus for sideboarding him vs Goyf in certain MU's? Tasigur relies on the GY to get INTO play, while Goyf relies on the GY to be effective while IN play. If you suspect RIP or some GY hate, is it best to sideout Tasigur because he might not make it to play? I am picking up 2 copies of Tasigur for MB, and I currently am trying 2 copies of VClique in the SB, so thinking ahead if I should just swap Tasigur for VClique in any match I suspect GY hate.
Expanding upon @Fallacy's suggestion, could the Tasigur testers also note the ratio of actually using Tasigur's ability to the number of times Tasigur is resolved. Is it 1 in 2? 1 in 4? 1 in 10? This might help with the Tasigur versus Tombstalker debate.
Instead of Tasigur why wouldn't you just put 2 Green Sun's Zenith in the build to function as Goyf and DRS 5 and 6 or to make a singleton Scavenging Ooze more likely to emerge when you needed him?
Tasigur doesn't look bad but he's not as good as Goyf and DRS 5 and 6 or having the ooze around for when you need him.
I'm not convinced you even need threats 13 and 14 in the build but if you do you'd be better off making them more flexible. Tasigur can be cast for just :b: but GSZ for :1::g: gets you a DRS and for :2::g: gets you a Goyf or an ooze.
Ok, I asked this in the shardless thread and I will ask in this one as well. Has anyone put anymore thought into the counter/top engine in this deck? It seems like locking someone out of the game and beating them with goyf/drs/delver is a solid game plan.
First of all: a huge upside of Tasigur is dodging Abrupt Decay, as well as surviving a single Bolt. GSZ is fine, but the threat you'll get with it might not be so robust in the BGx matchups -- which will become fairly commonplace now with Treasure Cruise gone. Also, his ability *does* become relevant later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
The reason a lot of BUG lists benefit from running 13-14 threats instead of just rolling with 12 is because none of them have Shroud and you ultimately need at least one to finish the game. RUG's Nimble Mongoose is a bit more resilient in some matchups. Additionally, RUG tends to run more copies of Spell Pierce, which often get used to protect their threats. UWR often runs even fewer threats, but often 2-3 of these are True-Name Nemesis, which again are fairly resilient. Both decks also have the advantage of running Burn, which can often finish off an opponent after their first few creatures have landed a few swings.
Tarmogoyf, Delver and DRS, despite their vulnerability to most removal, are still the most efficient and aggressively costed threats available to BUG. Sure, we could run Nimble Mongoose, but it has tension with DRS and we also don't typically fill the graveyard as quickly as RUG.
Thus, against a deck that packs a fair amount of removal, running only 12 creatures is often not quite enough to consistently close out the game in the right timeframe. The way BUG plays out is to deploy a threat, disrupt their hand/mana/counter relevant spells/kill their creatures, and race to the finish. This is made a lot easier if you don't have to spend a lot of your Ponders/Brainstorms searching for creatures, and instead are utilizing them to draw into the appropriate disruption.
If that is the case, would you run stifle or the hymn build with tasiguar.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Personally, I'd rather run Hymn as it seems to be more powerful going into the mid/late-game. But I don't think a Stifle build would mind having a 4/5 creature for B.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
So then run 4 DRS, 3 Goyfs, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Nimble Mongoose and 2 GSZ. You've got your choice of options as to what to pull up with the GSZ and your additional threat does not shrink the GY for your other creatures the way Tasigur will.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I just don't see what's so special about a 4/5 without evasion for :b: in the overall game plan, particularly given that he's Legendary and you can't put two of him down to decide a match if that's what it comes too. The GSZ's still flip delver and they give you sideboard options against certain matchups that might be useful, such as Reclamation Sage against Batterskull and Dosan against Miracles.
Next question, how many times have you activated the ability?Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
The only games i see that it will last that long for the ability to matter would be against miracles. But this card is bad vs. miracles.
It's also going to be bad against Submerge. Maybe it's actually going to be a plus card but it seems like there are a lot of different threats that would also be a plus card in the slots it will take up. That's why I'm thinking GSZ is a better option for the additional threats. It's more versatile and harder to hate against and it flips delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
BUG Delver is already playing the two best standalone green creatures in the meta in DRS and Goyf. How could having 2 more ways to pull them up not be a good option if the alternative is a 4/5 beater without evasion?
You are kidding, right? This is what people said about Tarmogoyf a few years back. We all see how that went. A 4/5 Legendary Creature for :b: is arguably the most aggressively costed power/toughness to mana cost ratio in this game. I would like to point out that while I did not play in SCG Indy (I was judging) I did see a couple Tasigur, the Golden Fangs in the top tables in both BUG and Grixis decks. The resounding consensus was that he was a mid game 4/5 for :1::b: or :b:. Just some food for thought. If you think running 1-2 copies of a Delve :5: spell is a problem, then you clearly never played this deck with 3-4 Treasure Cruises or Dig Through Times... and if you weren't playing with these spells with higher Delve costs, how would you have any (let alone an educated/worthwhile) basis for comparison?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Probably not. We really only run enough lands to cast our spells. Also, Sylvan Library is better than Top because it can generate real card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim111589
If you want an extra threat that also flips Delver, why not run Unearth? It costs one instead of 2-3 and cycles if it's dead. It also gets back every creature other than Tasigur and Tombstalker, including TNN and Clique.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Reclamation Sage costs 3G to GSZ for, is always sorcery speed, doesn't have Split Second like Grip, and can't kill Planeswalkers or Creatures like Maelstrom Pulse. It doesn't even put an odd card type in the graveyard like Seal of Primordium.
Because Unearth requires a creature in your graveyard, which in a meta infested by Swords to Plowshares and Terminus and GY hate after game 1 is no sure thing. GSZ will always find you a creature, and it will find you the creature you want, not the creature that happens to be in your GY.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
However it is both an answer and a damage source. Which none of your solutions are. And nothing says you can't run pulse in the sideboard with it also. I wouldn't main list Reclamation Sage, I'm just saying that once you are running a couple of GSZ it's a decent sideboard option.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
BTW, GSZ is even better in the tapout version than it is in the Stifle version. Turn 2 Hymn followed by turn 3 Liliana or Goyf is really nasty and with 2 more ways to get Goyf up on turn 3 you're getting to the point that one or the other is virtually certain.
In some old Team America lists (back in the 4x Sinkhole, 4x Tombstalker days, with Snuff Out as removal), the deck sometimes ran 1 copy of Reanimate as a pseudo-threat and additional hate against some graveyard-centric decks. This was usually in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I think Unearth and Reanimate would be better in some sort of Snapcaster Mage midrange build, as the current iteration of BUG Delver wants to minimize the number of situationally dead cards. I think it's probably bad to become even more susceptible to Rest in Peace, plus I see plenty of White decks in my local metagame. StP obviously makes reanimation cards even worse.
All of this recent discussion seems to be mostly just conjecture -- if you want to test a Green Sun's Zenith build, go for it! I encourage you to do so and find your own conclusions. I've tested it before, and it's fairly solid in the maindeck and can open up various sideboard options.
I have definitely been very happy with Tasigur, as a 4/5 creature for B slots well into this deck's overall plan of efficient threats backed up by disruption. The activated ability is just icing on top that can occasionally give you inevitability if the game goes long.
Simply put, this deck can be successful as long as you're sticking with about 48~ of the main cards... Regardless of whether or not you go with Hymn or Stifle (and in some metagames, even Sinkhole is savage, as is Spell Pierce), how much and what kind of removal you run, whether you roll with 12 creatures or more, and whether those creatures are any among many solid options: True-Name Nemesis, Tasigur, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Tombstalker, Baleful Strix, GSZ, etc. Hell, even fringe stuff like Kitchen Finks, Terravore or Courser of Kruphix could be really great in the right circumstance.
One thing I would definitely encourage people to run is the singleton Sylvan Library, or at least definitely if you're not running Dark Confiant (though even with Bob it's great, perhaps even better). This card more than any other seems to be the key to winning the UWr Miracles matchup.
Terravore is one option I was thinking of as a 1-of for the trample. It's not better than Goyf though and including it seems like a weaker option except in specific metas. It would take the Scavenging ooze slot which I think is also a weaker choice.
I was thinking 4x Delver of Secrets, 4x Deathrite Shaman, 3x-4x Tarmogoyf, 0x-1x Scavenging Ooze, 2x Green Sun's Zenith and 2x Liliana of the Veil as the "dudes". You can do that and still have 26 spells that flip Delver and 20 blue spells for FoW and 20 lands. Then you have 1x Dosan, the Falling Leaf and 1x Reclamation Sage in the SB for specific high end matchups. Dosan for Miracles and Reclamation Sage for the inevitable blade matchups. Pull Ooze against Miracles for Dosan and something else against blade for Reclamation Sage and then do your normal jimmying around with the instants/sorceries depending on how your SB is constructed.
I was looking hard at Tasigur as Goyf 5 and 5 when I realized what I really wanted was more Goyfs, not slightly worse Goyfs. Then putting 2 GSZ in made me realize that 3 Goyfs and a Scavenging Ooze was a bit more flexible and with 2 GSZ very doable.
I don't usually post in this thread since it's not my expertise, but if you're not running AT LEAST the Sylvan Library as a singleton in the maindeck, you're stone retarded. That is all.
-Matt