[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think 2-of value wish could be interesting, but then you get into some deep sideboarding. I like it. Wish, untap, Tsabo's Decree you?

I feel like Bone Picker seems REALLY interesting. Same with Strix + Meren.

-Matt

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I'm tempted to try something like this for giggles. Doesn't really look like nic fit but it does look like it would just crush most creature-based decks.

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Bone Picker
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Pernicious Deed (or 2?)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

21 lands, 1 Stronghold

I do like the idea of Rhonas...not a bad manasink at all. Tap 6 mana, attack for 10 with Strix and Rhonas. Deck loses some flex tools (and arguably could trim on Brutality) without "big" permanent removal, but I just don't see this ever losing to Delver.

Also, don't understand the current hate on BUG Fit. Sure, I've sold my soul over to Brainstorm, but at least I'm consistent now and can find my sideboard cards :cool:

Always quad rhino! Haha
Kambal has been fine. He has to be dealt with immediately.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Always quad rhino! Haha
Kambal has been fine. He has to be dealt with immediately.

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Kambal has been a tad bit slow. Sure it's pretty dece against burn and storm, but it doesn't come down fast enough nor can you find it with GSZ. TBH if you're on junk fit, going rhino, rhino, thragtusk does a very good job against burn.

I've enjoyed sideboard Kambal in Deadguy; he supplements other tools like CoBru. I would echo that in Nic Fit, where it sounds like he is acting more in a vacuum as a ringer against an archetype, without the ability to tutor him out, he feels much looser in that role. Would rather Rhino/Tusk. If burn is a large part of the meta where you are, Obstinate Baloth could also do work. Hell, even Finks isn't the worst.

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Originally Posted by Yutao

Kambal has been a tad bit slow. Sure it's pretty dece against burn and storm, but it doesn't come down fast enough nor can you find it with GSZ. TBH if you're on junk fit, going rhino, rhino, thragtusk does a very good job against burn.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

I've enjoyed sideboard Kambal in Deadguy; he supplements other tools like CoBru. I would echo that in Nic Fit, where it sounds like he is acting more in a vacuum as a ringer against an archetype, without the ability to tutor him out, he feels much looser in that role. Would rather Rhino/Tusk. If burn is a large part of the meta where you are, Obstinate Baloth could also do work. Hell, even Finks isn't the worst.

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He is one more mana than I would like and he isn't green but he is a lock piece like canonist that punishes them for trying to find an answer as well. I do not think baloth or finks are worth slots nor are we in need of more life gain (see 4 rhino and thragtusk). The deck needs hate for combo. Game plan is hand hate into lock piece and ride rhino into the sunset while jamming out to your favorite song.

I'll join the recent discussion about Nic Fit ideas. Not sure if I'll be able to play my monthly this weekend or not.

@Rhino: Card is good. 4 may be too much IMO. I think 3 + a suite of Zeniths is sufficient for most metas. Like a good baseball player, Rhino shines when you give it "protection" in the batting order. On its own, Rhino doesn't win the game on its own. You need something for 3cc (Tracker, etc) and/or something for 5cc/6cc (Tusk, Titans) to make your board significantly better than the opponent's.

@Moon effects: These are really good. I don't see a conflict of interest with Vet and Magus/Blood Moons. You're going to benefit more than the opponent. When the table slants heavily in your favor, you profit. The interesting thing to point out is the sheer amount of fetchlands in top 8 lists right now. Shit, even DnT is experimenting with splashes in addition to their plethora of utility lands.

@Abrupt Decay: This is commentary on a discussion several pages back. I think this card is the reason to run BG in the format (deathrite is not strictly BG so I don't consider him in the BG discussion). Counterbalance is out, but low cc permanents are in.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

...And wow, is this thread picking up again. Luckily i can skip all the Blue BUG talk, cus screw Blue.

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My man.

@Reani-fit: Tinkered with this for a while and concluded it's just worse than Sneaky Fit. You need conditionals that, as a whole, are harder to establish in the meta than [big stupid in your hand + sneak attack on table + red mana open]. I tried making Reanimator featuring Nic Fit and Nic Fit featuring Reanimator and it just didn't work.

4 Vet
1 Sakura
1 Witness
1 Meren
2 Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 GraveTime
2 Reanimator Targets
2 Zenith
/14

3 Deed
3 Decay
/6

4 Therapy
8 Reanimation Effects
8 Put Stuff in the Grave Effects
- (b) Entomb, Buried Alive, Thoughtseize, Collective Brutality, Liliana of the Veil
- (bg) Grisly Salvage
- (g) Fauna Shaman, Commune with the Gods, Wild Mongrel
- (r) Faithless Looting, Firestorm
/20

20 Lands

I still can't wrap my head around how to assemble this deck. I'm pretty sure you'd want 14-16 Nic Fit pieces...although what you exactly run is beyond the scope of what I can figure out. Running the usual suspects like Tracker/Rhino/Tusk is actually tough because Reani-Fit only has 20 lands.

*I seriously looked at The Mimeoplasm. (GSZ) + Buried Alive + Mimeo creates an interesting line of play. Perhaps there's something there I couldn't see.
*Nec. Ooze combo also has potential, but you kinda want the blue filters more than Nic Fit around him.
*Red has the best raw power. Faithless Looting is actually just a sweet card for Nic Fit in general. It's easy to pay for and has flashback to continue filtering. It rarely disrupts Jund Fit's natural gameplan. Red also gives us Firestorm, which dumps stupids into the 'yard as it boardwipes. JUND also gives us the natural ability to play Slaughter Games (never a bad thing).
*Blue was tempting, but ultimately you're running a very weak UB reanimator deck. Body Double isn't enough. Strix doesn't fit the gameplan (even a slow one built on Rec. Nightmare). Gifts/Intuition assemble a worse sneak attack deck. The one upside was Show and Tell-Fit, but I cannot find that to be a better deck than Sneak/Show.
*White has the most flexibility for a Nic Fit shell IMO. Karmic Guide is straight value regardless of a finisher in the yard. Salvage plays nice with Unburial. The option of Sun Titan has an upside of Animate Dead making the list. Reanimate Sun Titan -> grab AD -> grab another guy. There's potential to run Junk-Fit and insert Karmic Guides.

I didn't think about Hulk combos. MrIggins tickles my brain on the Mikaeus/Ballista thing. How would you build around those two?

@Warden:
Below you'll find my latest BUG Fit Reanimator list. I played it last week going 2-1-1 in the local weekly event. The lost match was 1-2 and both losses were to Winter Orb. Still figuring that card out, already have answers so maybe being aware of it will help. I think boarding in FoWs may be ok. Last time I played the deck, maybe last September, I had a similar result.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1005288
[edit: Actually now with -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Ponder which I'll change into +1 Liliana of the Veil. Also sideboard +2 Invasive Surgery, +1 Fatal Push, -1 Toxic Deluge, -1 Back to Basics, -1 Ensnaring Bridge. I'm considering To the Slaughter over Edict and Eternal Witness over one Snapcaster since it's GSZ-able, but I think Snapcaster is preferable.]

Basically the list I play is using the Reanimation package as a value package (could have been Unearth) but occasionally doing broken things and offering quick combo interaction through Entomb + Reanimate Glenn Elendra.The anti-combo package is pretty good for a Nic Fit maindeck with Entomb acting as extra discard (flashback Therapy), GSZ for Leovold stopping cantrips, Liliana for extra discard and monster-removal, Jace fatesealing, Glenn Elendra providing softlock and Reanimate extending it, Strixes and Snappys offering Therapy-flashback to avoid ramping the opponent, and Collective Brutality for extra discard. It's very nice to have all these options in the maindeck. The sideboard offers very good alternatives with Invasive Surgery very easily reaching Delirium thanks to Strixes and cantrips, and there's FoW and Flusterstorm and Snappy doubles up on them and Surgical too.

On the value side of things having access to 3-9 Strixes (Reanimate + Snapcaster) or similarly 3-7 Leovolds (strange counting here but I include the GSZ's in the lower amount), Snapcasters doubling up on removal and Jace + Liliana that work well with Strixes, Deeds and the removal + Snappys. All these nice things in a list with proper filtering seems very worthy of testing to me. It lacks the linearity and strength of Rhinos with lots of removal or Sneak + monster and it can take some time to close out games. Maybe I just need to learn it better, but I doubt the list I tried is optimal. Would be nice if someone else would try it, it's lots of fun.

And then there are the strong plays of t2 reanimated Grave Titan or the Veteran ramp into Jace t2. I left a more fancy list with e.g. Griselbrand and moved to a list that puts less focus on the monsters. Both Grave Titan, Thragtusk and Glenn Elendra are castable, don't even need have to ramp into them but if we're ramping it's pretty nice to be able to Reanimate a Veteran in case of Stifle or FoW.

I guess you need a sac outlet for Mike+Ballista to go off? I'm not sure about running a 3 card combo tho.

Not to fully dismiss the reanimate NicFit variant, but doesn't Sneak Attack already doing what reanimate NicFit wants to do with less cards and less hate? For Sneak Attack we dodge the graveyard. Plus isn't Pattern of Rebirth not a better alternative to drop huge Bombs like Progenitus, Emrakul or Worldspine Wurm?
Again, My concern on Reanimator is that it requires more cards and is easier to hate.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

If burn is a large part of the meta where you are, Obstinate Baloth could also do work. Hell, even Finks isn't the worst.

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How about a maindeck w/ multiple DRS, a Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix and 4 Rhinos..? Works just fine, I can tell you.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I'll join the recent discussion about Nic Fit ideas. Not sure if I'll be able to play my monthly this weekend or not.

@Rhino: Card is good. 4 may be too much IMO. I think 3 + a suite of Zeniths is sufficient for most metas. Like a good baseball player, Rhino shines when you give it "protection" in the batting order. On its own, Rhino doesn't win the game on its own. You need something for 3cc (Tracker, etc) and/or something for 5cc/6cc (Tusk, Titans) to make your board significantly better than the opponent's.

...

@Abrupt Decay: This is commentary on a discussion several pages back. I think this card is the reason to run BG in the format (deathrite is not strictly BG so I don't consider him in the BG discussion). Counterbalance is out, but low cc permanents are in.

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Sigarda is enough, 6-drops are just overkill.

On AD: What CMC <= 3 non-land permanents are there that we can't answer w/ other, cheaper (or GSZ-able) tools..? I don't think Nic Fit has much need for AD at this particular moment.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Not to fully dismiss the reanimate NicFit variant, but doesn't Sneak Attack already doing what reanimate NicFit wants to do with less cards and less hate? For Sneak Attack we dodge the graveyard. Plus isn't Pattern of Rebirth not a better alternative to drop huge Bombs like Progenitus, Emrakul or Worldspine Wurm?
Again, My concern on Reanimator is that it requires more cards and is easier to hate.

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You cast your Pattern of Rebirth, targeting your little creature. Opponent: Bolt your creature (or whatever other removal). Thank you for the 2-for-1. And then there's Stifle. I've dabbled with it long enough to know that Summoner's Egg is the better option, and that also isn't Legacy-viable.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Not to fully dismiss the reanimate NicFit variant, but doesn't Sneak Attack already doing what reanimate NicFit wants to do with less cards and less hate? For Sneak Attack we dodge the graveyard. Plus isn't Pattern of Rebirth not a better alternative to drop huge Bombs like Progenitus, Emrakul or Worldspine Wurm?
Again, My concern on Reanimator is that it requires more cards and is easier to hate.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

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I actually changed to the Sneaky Fit list when it appeared and stopped working on the Reanimator version, I also think Sneaky Fit may be more powerful. I'm not trying to maximize power with the reanimator list, rather synergy, smoothness, efficiency, while keeping an unfair element - I think. And now with SDT gone I'd rather go back to a list with good card filtering rather than starting experiments on how to replace SDT (that will be for later).

The advantage of the BUG Reanimator list, I think, is that:
a) you have good card filtering with Brainstorms + Snapcasters and Strixes and even a Ponder or two - which is known to be very valuable for a deck in this format,
b) you can board into or even maindeck counterspells and even reach delirium for Invasive Surgery, providing perhaps(!) a more consistent combo plan than most Nic Fit versions (very much up to proving, I guess),
c) maindeck Glenn Elendra who is good value in fair matchups, blocking Marit Lage and Delvers well and above all providing soft lock vs combo,
d) potential to tutor for and reanimate Glenn Elendra from turn two with blue mana open, which is a pretty good move [edit: in combo matchups],
e) strixes are sweet vs fair decks, obviously, just play the cantripping roadblock and dig further into your deck for the next land you're missing or whatever, and then you reanimate the Strix or Veteran or Snapcaster to double up on removal or whatever crucial aspect of the Nic Fit strategy you find yourself in current need of - the deck has a solid (or well, I'm testing it) fair game plan, [edit: include here the planeswalker + deed synergy]
f) the possibility of Reanimating a Grave Titan (or whatever you choose to play), this is not the main plan just a good option to have that will give some easy wins. [edit: It's also highly possible to ramp into the Grave Titan Nic Fit style, hence you're not depending on the reanimation strategy]

So to conclude there is maindeck combo interaction for little mana, there is card selection and there is a stable fair plan with the potential to do kind of unfair stuff. I started with a more unfair game plan but I didn't like the clunkiness.

The graveyard interaction isn't, I think, a weakness of this list. Rather it may be an advantage. I tend to board out parts of the small reanimation package, if opponents bring in gravehate that opens up for the fair planeswalker+bridge plan.

Let me in response ask what Sneaky Fit does that BUG Reanimator wants to do (i.e. points a-e above)? Not saying that BUG Reanimator Fit is a better deck, but it has some advantages that I appreciate.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

On AD: What CMC <= 3 non-land permanents are there that we can't answer w/ other, cheaper (or GSZ-able) tools..? I don't think Nic Fit has much need for AD at this particular moment.

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Killing delver is still a thing. Having an uncounterable way to get rid of a problem permanent in a format with a ton of cheaper counters is still pretty useful.

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Originally Posted by LVA

Killing delver is still a thing. Having an uncounterable way to get rid of a problem permanent in a format with a ton of cheaper counters is still pretty useful.

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@AD mana available, PtE/Fatal Push has "can't be Dazed", meaning your opponent'll have to 2-for-1 himself w/ a FoW if they're to protect their Delver. I don't know about you, but getting my opponent to 2-for-1 themselves so they can stop my 1 mana card is perfectly fine by me. It also means they're less likely to have the FoW when they really need it, and, at least w/ Junk Fit, I'm perfectly fine with spending some life points (by getting Delver'd in the face) to accomplish that.

This deck plans to ignore Daze/Wasteland and overload your opponents' FoW :smile:. Gives their deck 8 dead cards and only 4 get-out-of-jail-free cards vs. all your stuff.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@AD mana available, PtE/Fatal Push has "can't be Dazed", meaning your opponent'll have to 2-for-1 himself w/ a FoW if they're to protect their Delver. I don't know about you, but getting my opponent to 2-for-1 themselves so they can stop my 1 mana card is perfectly fine by me. It also means they're less likely to have the FoW when they really need it, and, at least w/ Junk Fit, I'm perfectly fine with spending some life points (by getting Delver'd in the face) to accomplish that.

This deck plans to ignore Daze/Wasteland and overload your opponents' FoW :smile:. Gives their deck 8 dead cards and only 4 get-out-of-jail-free cards vs. all your stuff.

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Cards like food chain also exist, so having a no-nonsense way to kill that is non-trivial. More importantly with bant deathblade doing pretty well online being able to destroy the equipment is a big deal. SFM decks can go long, but without a jitte or sword of x and y their creatures are kind of unimpressive, at least compared to ours, so being able to win that battle is pretty significant in that match up.

Oh and death and taxes.

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Originally Posted by LVA

Cards like food chain also exist, so having a no-nonsense way to kill that is non-trivial. More importantly with bant deathblade doing pretty well online being able to destroy the equipment is a big deal. SFM decks can go long, but without a jitte or sword of x and y their creatures are kind of unimpressive, at least compared to ours, so being able to win that battle is pretty significant in that match up.

Oh and death and taxes.

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So... PtE, Pernicious Deed & Qasali Pridemage?

What else you got?

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Originally Posted by Echelon

So... PtE, Pernicious Deed & Qasali Pridemage?

What else you got?

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Relying too much on deed can be a bit of a risky proposition, especially against something like d&t. Decay is just a flexible removal spell, which is never bad. If you want to cut it go ahead, I'm sure you have your reasoning, but having something more versatile than path/swords/push can be pretty helpful at times, so I'd rather run it just because of that.

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Originally Posted by LVA

Relying too much on deed can be a bit of a risky proposition, especially against something like d&t. Decay is just a flexible removal spell, which is never bad. If you want to cut it go ahead, I'm sure you have your reasoning, but having something more versatile than path/swords/push can be pretty helpful at times, so I'd rather run it just because of that.

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Yup, I've been doing without for a long time, running 4 PtE and a QPM instead and have been doing just fine.

My point though is that even though AD is a versatile card, a) you don't really need the versatility and b) it isn't that versatile that you lose anything when you don't run it, especially now Miracles is gone. I'm just trying to make people think here. It's often considered an auto-include without any reasoning while, with some reasoning, you can conclude you can omit it in favor of faster or GSZ'able cards, improving both the speed and consistency of your deck. Many roads lead to Rome, and all that.

As for D&T - it's one of my regular training buddies. The MU is fine, especially when you bring in Golgari Charms for G2/3.

Fwiw I play a lot of Grixis Delver and I'm very glad to see less Abrupt Decays. The uncounterable clause is a lot more relevant than you think. We need to be hyper aggressive as your late game is so good, so I'll FoW stuff like PtE and Push on a Delver most of the time (ofc game state dependent). Stifle on Vet triggers can keep things like Piece live too.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Fwiw I play a lot of Grixis Delver and I'm very glad to see less Abrupt Decays. The uncounterable clause is a lot more relevant than you think. We need to be hyper aggressive as your late game is so good, so I'll FoW stuff like PtE and Push on a Delver most of the time (ofc game state dependent). Stifle on Vet triggers can keep things like Piece live too.

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Grixis Delver is my sparring partner's other deck :wink:.

Stifle is how I tend to fall most often, denying my deck the mana it craves. AD doesn't do much to prevent that. I just have to keep making those land drops so I can get to the late game before Grixis' creatures get there. Heck, often enough I'll try to go and GSZ for Dryad Arbor on my T1 to help break through the mana denial.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Grixis Delver is my sparring partner's other deck :wink:.

Stifle is how I tend to fall most often, denying my deck the mana it craves. AD doesn't do much to prevent that. I just have to keep making those land drops so I can get to the late game before Grixis' creatures get there. Heck, often enough I'll try to go and GSZ for Dryad Arbor on my T1 to help break through the mana denial.

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AD does solve the mana problems to an extent. If you're stuck on just a few lands, regardless of whether you can cast W/B for PtE/Push with mana up to pay for Daze, the Delver player has the option to counter it. If you're low on mana you're going to need further time to set up.

The point I'm trying to make is that Delver is willing to trade cards for damage aggressively vs Nic Fit, especially since Therapy can clear the way of FoW to resolve bombs later anyway so I will snap it off if I can. Decay doesn't give that option. I mean, did you really just play Decay for Counterbalance before? In the deck that has a high enough curve to not care about it most of the time?

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I mean, did you really just play Decay for Counterbalance before? In the deck that has a high enough curve to not care about it most of the time?

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I'll let you in on a little secret... I've never run Decay at all, not even for Counterbalance.

Counterbalance wasn't the problem (courtesy of GSZ), the fact that they could easily answer all of our creatures (including Sigarda) was.

I like both the lower curve and the fact that it keeps my green mana free. My manabase is also a land smaller than most (just 21 lands) and I only run 6 basics (2 each), so my green mana gets pressured to hell for most of the game. Not running AD helps relieve that.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I'll let you in on a little secret... I've never run Decay at all, not even for Counterbalance.

Counterbalance wasn't the problem (courtesy of GSZ), the fact that they could easily answer all of our creatures (including Sigarda) was.

I like both the lower curve and the fact that it keeps my green mana free. My manabase is also a land smaller than most (just 21 lands) and I only run 6 basics (2 each), so my green mana gets pressured to hell for most of the game. Not running AD helps relieve that.

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When I tried your list in my meta, I always miss AD. Especaily when I meet Counterbalance.

But now that is out of the way, we can use Fatal Push instead.

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

When I tried your list in my meta, I always miss AD. Especaily when I meet Counterbalance.

But now that is out of the way, we can use Fatal Push instead.

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Hey, to me that reads "Your list might be viable in the new meta", so that's cool.

I never enter a legacy event without abrupt decays. Uncounterable and kills lily all at the discounted rate of BG.
I play 3, had four but felt like too many. I don't like push at all. We have primo removal.

Hey guys, long time lurker here.
I always thought Nic Fit was the sweetest deck in legacy and have tested various versions on cockatrice/xmage over the years but couldn't get myself to buy in with the miracles matchup being so bad. Now that that's out of the way...

Personal thoughts:

• I think BUG might be where you want to be since
  
  • BUG has the best card selection, I think other versions will just be too inconsistent without top (some more than others).
  • BUG has the best combo matchup, and fast combo is big right now.
  • Leovold has been a pretty sweet addition to the deck imo, since it's a great value card while at the same time having a relevant ability against many combo decks.

With that being said:

• I think you definitely want to run 4x GSZ in BUG, I've encountered several people trying Planeswalker builds etc with no or few copies but the card is simply too good. Early game all you want is to get an Explorer into play and GSZ does that. After that all you want is to get a fatty into play and GSZ does that. And yes, you pay 1 more but after Explorer you can probably afford it. The card just makes the deck consistent. Don't cut/shave it. This obv. means you have to run a high(ish) amount of creatures but I don't think that's an issue since miracles is gone.
• I think FoW is good. (Not everyone runs it in BUG from what I've seen.) Against combo it's obviously great but even against fair decks it helps you not get stifled/keeps you up in tempo early game while becoming perfectly castable late game since we're kind of a ramp deck anyways.

With that said, here's what I've been running all afternoon on Xmage, currently undefeated even against what I thought would be some tough matchups (Turbo Depths, ANT):

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// 60 Maindeck
// 15 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Baleful Strix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

// 17 Instant/Sorcery
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Ponder

// 6 Other Permanent
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements

// 22 Land
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Phyrexian Tower

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Nissa, Vital Force
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

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Some thoughts after testing:

• Nissa, Steward of Elements has been extremely slow and will get the axe. She might be better in a more creature focused deck but as stated above I don't think that's where you want to be.
• Jace is great.
• The Mindbreak Traps are probably overkill, Storm seemed fairly easy post board, something less narrow like another Thoughtseize sounds good to me.
• I tried Titania when testing solo yesterday (first thing I do with a "new" deck is play a bunch of games on Cockatrice by myself against a gauntlet of strong decks) and she was underwhelming. I love her in some other decks (been testing some green loam/stompy brew last week, she was great there) but without wasteland there were too many times she just came down as a vanilla 5/3 with an enemy DRS eating her land. I'm currently trying more Trackers and an Oboro wich has been sweet so far. Will keep testing.
• I probably need more lifegain somewhere. Not yet sure what to add and where though (MD Thragtusk? SB Baloth/Finks?). Hasn't been a problem yet but it's bound to be at some point.
• I put a Ghost Quarter main as a solution to problematic lands (mostly Dark Depths) as well as to potentially combo it with Nissa, VF/Tracker. While it did help me win a match against Turbo Depths (along with Strix blocking and Jace bouncing 20/20s) I think Karakas might be better in that slot. Also makes Teeg more castable.
• Rec Sage is a card I always have in my initial drafts of GSZ decks but usually cut after a while because I never side it in. Might happen here too.
• Currently on 0 AD which has nothing to do with the current discussion (which I only just read). I just needed slots and decided to try to go down to 0 because we have Deed anyways. Might add a copy or two if I find room but I haven't missed it yet.

I guess with that in mind this will be my list going forward:

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// 60 Maindeck
// 16 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Courser of Kruphix //might not be here to stay, could be AD or something
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Baleful Strix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

// 17 Instant/Sorcery
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Ponder

// 5 Other Permanent
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 22 Land
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Phyrexian Tower

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Nissa, Vital Force
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

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I think something like this should be strong in the current meta.
Miracles is gone, as such there aren't many decks that play a ton of basics which is great because it benefits us directly (we don't give everyone free lands with Explorer) as well as indirectly (we are one of the few decks that doesn't care that much about the rising amount of non-basic land hate). Terminus is gone and StP is down in numbers which is great for us. The combo matchups are mostly fine because of FoW. Stifle is annoying but at least this version can try to force it. Fair decks are mostly good matchups, Loam is currently on the rise and a great matchup for probably all Nic Fit variants. I'm hoping Nic Fit is actually a good deck now. Will keep testing.

~509

509 you mention requiring a full playset of GSZ in BUG, but your topend is...3 Trackers, Leovold and a Meren? That seems underwhelming considering your arguments for including so many. I'm about to finish up my 5th league with BUG online and I have a higher topend (including a Titania, also Nissa VF as a noncreature) with less GSZ.

I'm surprised by the complete lack of single target removal, that seems odd to me. Seems like you'll just be auto-dead to Delver if your first Deed gets countered (if you find it in time). Heck I have a full playset of Strix and they are not guarantees that you won't die to the bug - my strixes usually immediately die to a bolt, push, or decay if my opp has the 3/2 out. The only downside to Push that I've found is Chalice. (Having more removal means that Titania doesn't have to be negated by an opp's single DRS btw...)

Personally I'm still not going to include FoW, especially not in the maindeck. How does FoW keep you up-tempo against fair decks? You are always losing two cards to their one if you play it early. Sure we can hardcast it later, but it's not a big deal considering that you usually don't have the mana to both play out a significant threat + hold up hardcast mode. Again, having some more removal means that you can use 1 Push or Decay against an opponent's...say, Knight of the Reliquary, instead of losing two cards. Something like C Brutality ups your flexibility as well (and game against combo).

Glad you are playing and testing the deck, we could always use more people trying things out. IMO the best parts of blue that you gain with BUG fit are Brainstorm, Strix, and Jace. Anything else is just gravy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

509 you mention requiring a full playset of GSZ in BUG, but your topend is...3 Trackers, Leovold and a Meren? That seems underwhelming considering your arguments for including so many. I'm about to finish up my 5th league with BUG online and I have a higher topend (including a Titania, also Nissa VF as a noncreature) with less GSZ.

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Hmm, even as I was writing it I was debating what I wanted to say exactly so let me put it differently (and I know this isn't the same statement, my bad):
I think GSZ is good. Great even. I think lists like that of McDarby that forgo it completely are making a mistake as they won't find their Explorer reliably. It might, however be right, to shave one, maybe even two, though that seems really low to me. Overall what I'm trying to say is I think you should still try to be a GSZ deck. For now I'm playing 4 as I think it's great at any stage of the game.
Titania has been somewhat lackluster for me even though I love the card.
Nissa VF has impressed me a lot and I'm debating moving her to the main deck. In that case, yes, maybe even cutting a GSZ for it could be right.
Keep in mind that sometimes searching up a Tracker and playing a fetch immediately can be more impactful than playing all your lands, GSZ for Titania and getting your fetch DRS'd. I'm also playing a Oboro so I'm hoping the topend will be enough. So far it has been though it's somewhat experimental for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

I'm surprised by the complete lack of single target removal, that seems odd to me. Seems like you'll just be auto-dead to Delver if your first Deed gets countered (if you find it in time). Heck I have a full playset of Strix and they are not guarantees that you won't die to the bug - my strixes usually immediately die to a bolt, push, or decay if my opp has the 3/2 out. The only downside to Push that I've found is Chalice. (Having more removal means that Titania doesn't have to be negated by an opp's single DRS btw...)

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I agree that it's odd and I was testing with 62 until yesterday and my last 2 cuts were AD so I'm not saying I'm sure on this at all but I'm trying it for now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

Personally I'm still not going to include FoW, especially not in the maindeck. How does FoW keep you up-tempo against fair decks? You are always losing two cards to their one if you play it early.

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Might not always be great but that is still tempo though. You will fall behind but you have to hope to make it up with Deed/Deluge. Currently 2-1 vs Delver and the only match I lost I mulliganed to a questionable 5 and got Hymn'd twice. Not saying the matchup is great but it's been fine for me so far, we'll see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

Sure we can hardcast it later, but it's not a big deal considering that you usually don't have the mana to both play out a significant threat + hold up hardcast mode. Again, having some more removal means that you can use 1 Push or Decay against an opponent's...say, Knight of the Reliquary, instead of losing two cards. Something like C Brutality ups your flexibility as well (and game against combo).

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There've been a lot of cases in my testing where I didn't have a big creature to cast or I had a few clues lying around against big red and could hold up force, then crack the clues end step. Also with Jace out you are often fine with 2-for-1ing yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

Glad you are playing and testing the deck, we could always use more people trying things out. IMO the best parts of blue that you gain with BUG fit are Brainstorm, Strix, and Jace. Anything else is just gravy.

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Thanks a ton for your input. I'll definitely keep trying things out as far as removal and threats are concerned. For now I'll stick with the forces and see how that goes though.

E: Courser's ass. :/ Titania back in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I'll let you in on a little secret... I've never run Decay at all, not even for Counterbalance.

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You utter madman!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yutao

You utter madman!

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Does this really surprise you (or anyone, for that matter)..? Lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Does this really surprise you (or anyone, for that matter)..? Lol

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Honestly? No. You are more man than me.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Honestly? No. You are more man than me.

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I am all that is man. I'm up to playing 23 real lands (none of that Maze of Ith cheating).

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Originally Posted by Brael

I am all that is man. I'm up to playing 23 real lands (none of that Maze of Ith cheating).

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Going on 23 too. I used to run 24 but that's really too much. I cut the singleton Grave Time for a 2nd Tracker. The woodland lady impressed me a lot

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Originally Posted by Ivan-784

The woodland lady impressed me a lot

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Not really sure what card your taking about.
23 lands on a 60 build feels really. As much as Tracker can be a powerhouse mid/late i think one is sufficient. Between Nissa, Tracker, Witness and Courser, the 3cmc spots are clogged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Not really sure what card your taking about.
23 lands on a 60 build feels really. As much as Tracker can be a powerhouse mid/late i think one is sufficient. Between Nissa, Tracker, Witness and Courser, the 3cmc spots are clogged.

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I am talking about Tracker. Found her very useful against midrange decks.

Made some changes to the list. Here's what I will bring tomorrow at the tournament:

4x Vet Ex
1x DRS
1x ScOoze
1x Gaddock
1x STEve
1x Witness
1x Couser
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2x Tracker
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth (yes, she seems pretty cute. Swapped Rec Nightmare for her)
1x Siege Rhino
1x Thrag
1x Sigarda
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Prime Time

3x GSZ
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Deeds
1x Deluge
3x PTE
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Sylvan Library
1x Crop Rotation

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Stronghold
1x Tower

SB:
1x Golgari charm
1x Rec Sage
1x Ashen Rider
2x Krosan Grip
2x Thoughtseize
4x Lost Legacy
4x Surgical

Upped Decay count to 3, because of the many delver decks: slow hands are a serious issue against them, so I think this is a good choice.
I cut the Grave Titan to put in something more agile: 2 six mana drops plus Sigarda are enough, I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivan-784

1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth (yes, she seems pretty cute. Swapped Rec Nightmare for her)

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Meren is the real deal aganist orher midrange decks. BUG have a hard time to kill her and you return your best creture to your hand.

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

Meren is the real deal aganist orher midrange decks. BUG have a hard time to kill her and you return your best creture to your hand.

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Indeed. But you have to kill every enemy DRS: another reason to run 3 decays.

I'd like to test Nissa VF in my 75 cards, but I reaally don't know what to cut. Actual card choice seems to be really consistent for my meta

I'd cut that rotation in a heartbeat for nissa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivan-784

Going on 23 too. I used to run 24 but that's really too much. I cut the singleton Grave Time for a 2nd Tracker. The woodland lady impressed me a lot

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If I could figure out a cut I would play 24. I think 24 is the right number, since GSZ can also help with mana acceleration. Keep in mind that I am utterly crazy on land counts though, I play 26 lands in Burn.

I'm currently bouncing between Rhinos and SFM. Rhinos seem better positioned but SFM seems fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

I'd cut that rotation in a heartbeat for nissa

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Without Miracles around, I like Nissa a lot less. The fact that it's usually my top end and I can't GSZ for it, is a big deal. I was up to playing 2 Nissa in my last build where Miracles was in the format, but I've since cut it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivan-784

Indeed. But you have to kill every enemy DRS: another reason to run 3 decays.

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This is part of the reason I would run the full 4 DRS between MB and SB. You don't have to kill every one, all you need is your own DRS to counter theirs. At the end of their turn, eat a spell, if they counter you they can't eat Meren's target. If they don't counter, you get free damage.

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Edit: Second guessing the Oboro+Tracker plan. Oboro might just be better as a 9th fetch. A fetch generates two Tracker triggers already, the only advantage Oboro offers is the life in exchange for being colorless. I need to think about it further. I'm really liking my SFM build which leverages 4 Trackers though. The deck just never runs out of cards, yet it's always using all of it's mana.

This is what I've been playing
Land (23)

2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Windswept Heath

Creature (18)

4x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Artifact (3)

1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sorcery (10)

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Crop Rotation
2x Path to Exile

Enchantment (1)

1x Pernicious Deed

And the Rhino build I've also been looking at
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Top 8'd at Mythic's 32-man (6 rounds) today. Full report to come, but for the quick touch-in:

R1: Food Chain - loss
R2: bye - win
R3: Merfolk - win
R4: RG Lands - win
R5: Tezzerator - win
R6: Esperblade - win (got paired down and had to play it out)

3rd in standings going into top 8.

Top 8: RUG Lands - loss

Briefly, I flooded vs Food Chain g1 -- drew like 3 Sneaks and no monsters, Zeniths, Deed, draw spells, tutors, nothing. Just lands and sneaks. G2 he forces my t3 Sneak and then untaps into Food Chain + Griffin + Ballista and kills me. Vs RUG Lands in the top 8 my deck just flatly imploded. I mulled to 6 both games, and never drew a land beyond my opening hand in either game (technically I did in g1 because it took him 10 years to kill me, but through Loam/Waste and Ports, it took way too long for me to get to any real mana count after like turn 6). Feeling mildly irritated about the top 8 loss because I basically didn't get to play and I felt ready for the matchup, but, meh.

I'll give a somewhat expanded version with more notes and my thoughts/list/changes to make later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I never enter a legacy event without abrupt decays. Uncounterable and kills lily all at the discounted rate of BG.
I play 3, had four but felt like too many. I don't like push at all. We have primo removal.

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Spending a card to kill Liliana is usually CDA unless they both had a hand and you had an empty boardstate. If you have to discard it to her +1, sure, kill her. But otherwise Lingering Souls (or similar) are much better answers.