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Not even under these circumstances would I side in the Pithing Needles. Chalice@0 stops EE killing your Chalice@1. Trinisphere also pretty much wrecks DreadStill.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
Play Dutch Stax.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
Ok apparently I was too vague when I said "anything will help". What I meant was "any advice on my sideboard and sideboarding techniques will help". I don't know that I will see a lot of Dreadstill in my area. Right now I only play on MWS and I just want to not get stomped by decks like Dreadstill, Landstill, and Thresh. I have conceded that Survival just sucks and accept that. Land.dec sucks too, but is manageable. I can't afford, and also do not wish, to play Dutch Stax, as I am very happy with Armageddon Stax. I just need some assistance knowing how to SB for these matchups, so I know what's what. I always seem at a loss as to what goes in and comes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
You can run 1 maindeck Kor Haven for starters. That helps greatly against decks like DreadStill or TA. Further, as I said, Chalices and Trinispheres are DreadStill's nemisis. Oblivion Rings are a must against both these decks, if you don't already have them. If you can, try to run 1 Plateau or Savannah maindeck, and have either Boils or Chokes in your sideboard, it helps against alot of match-ups which have blue. They help (way) better than the underperforming Defense Grid because:
- Defense Grid only stops counters. Decks these days play threats as well.
- Defense Grid has poor synergy with Trinisphere. Most counters you'll ...uhm...encounter...are Force of Will and Daze. Trinisphere make these cost :3: just like Defense Grid does, plus Trinisphere also has effect on alot more.
I'm also not a fan of Humility in Armageddon Stax, because it shuts down half your win conditions: your Maguses. Try Powder Keg. It's a real good card against:
- Goblins. Not that this match-up was a problem in the first place.
- Empty the Warrens tokens.
- Phyrexian Dreadnought
- A little creature called Tarmogoyf, and all his 2cc friends like Jotun Grunt and Dark Confidant. And these are all cards which are very good against Stax.
My Armageddon Stax sideboard looks like this:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Compost
3 Powder Keg
Compost is also pretty cool: it helps against match-ups which are pretty hard for Stax: decks with alot of discard. I already run 4 maindeck Oblivion Rings, so they're not in the board.
Against DreadStill, out of this list you want Choke and Powder Keg. So you could try something like:
-1 Smokestack (with Choke they're less useful), go to a minimum of 2.
-4 Ghostly Prison (they only have 1 real beater...they can afford the mana)
-1 Armageddon (if you're playing 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War, like I am)
-1 Mox Diamond; tricky card when EE@0 comes through, you will not only lose your Chalices but also your Moxen.
+4 Choke
+3 Powder Keg
If you play clever against their countermagic (keep in mind they sided out Counterbalance, but put in Krosan Grips or Shattering Pulse depending on the build, and probably still play Daze), this should be a win for you.
If you prefer some graveyard-hate in your sideboard you could try:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Choke
3 Compost
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
How do you reliably get green mana if you just splash one dual (and Moxen, obv.)? I have posted my list, and my manabase, several times, so you can see that I have 3x Oblivion Ring MD, and I have 1x Kor Haven already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
I have felt the same about Humility myself, and have been wondering why Keg isn't getting more attention. Is it just the speed?
I like the SB you listed, but sadly I am not in a position to pick up duals. It's part of why I built Stax. No need for hundreds of dollars for a manabase. Can you make any other recommendations for my SB? I will certainly try replacing Humility with Powder Keg, as I too felt it deserved some love.
As for Defense Grid, I disagree. It doesn't just hurt counters. It means Brainstorm costs :3::u: unless they want to cast it on their turn. StP suddenly costs :3::w:, Grip costs :5::g:, all unless they want to spend their mana on their turn, opening up our options on our turn. I do understand where you are coming from though, I guess I like the fallback as additional Trinispheres for counters. I like knowing that they can't counter anything without that mana untapped. It's like Trinisphere 5-7 for me.
I don't know... I am too drunk and tired to think too much about it, but I love the deck and just want to understand how to stand a chance against a large portion of the field.
Fetch with Flagstones.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
Try shockland? But you really just need 1 Savannah, it shouldn't be that big a deal...Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
So they cast it on their own turn. With Trinisphere it always costs :2::u:. Same goes for Swords to Plowshares. I'll give you the comment regarding Grip, but that's far too narrow to use Defense Grid...and again, they'll use it on their own turn if they otherwise can't afford it.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
But they're bad Trinispheres. In fact, you don't even want to run over 4 Trinispheres in the first place, even if you could.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
Ah well, good luck with it. All I can say is, try some stuff and test them out.
Against threshold, I probably wouldn't side in as much. Your main deck would already wreck thresh as it is. Prisons and Magus do their job pretty well against thresh. Blocking and taxing their mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
Goblins I usually side out smokestack as, normally aggro gets more permanents faster than you do. Also if your on the draw, I would cut some chalice against goblins. Since you would really want to hit lackey and vials with it. I think wrath is better than humility against aggro. Kills everything.Unless you plan to go the manland kill or humility is used against matrons or trinket mages.
Against 43 land, I definitely take off magus and prisons or cut them at the least since they really don't run creatures. In goes suppression fields/needles. try to set chalice at 2 for loam.
Dreadstill does not run alot of permanents just like thresh, Prisons won't do much here, So im assuming that you take prisons off for fields, and cut a few e magus for aura of silence or seals.Your sideboard generally would almost help you against dreadstill. Runed halo would be a head ache since now they actually have one win con which is dreadnaught. I didn't consider manlands because, you generally have 2-3 manlands and 2-3 wastelands as well.
As for your sideboard, I used to like def grid as well, but after bringing them to a few tournaments, I realized that they work almost exactly like trinisphere so in actuality you already have maindeck def. grids. Just something to consider, Have you ever tried mana tithe? It might be something that could work if your really taxing your opponent. They would normally counter chalice at one anyway so its not such a big deal for it being 1cc.
As for the green splash, I would advocate at least 2 dual lands in there. If your on the budget, pain lands or maybe even filter lands. I actually tried treva's ruins or riths grove in there just to see if I could constantly use it to bounce city of traitors when I put it to play constantly. It worked it some cases, but I hated drawing it as my first land.
@ green splash
In my green splash I have chokes and Krosan grips in my side. I don't think the grips are ever going to go away, as it helps in either killing dreadnaught, or taking out P. Deed which kills this deck on its tracks. I Don't mind discard as much as deed since I already have a maindeck solution to discard like chalice set @ 1 or 2 for hymn . So as for the green splash, I would definitely have K. grips and chokes on the side.
@OneBigSquirrelGod
Thirst for knowledge has been very very helpful in my testing. They can give us a variety of other options like chills sower of temptation or whaver else there is.
First stop: Chalice@1 against Manabond and Exploration. Also, Armageddon isn't as good against this match-up as it seems. They kinda recover fast :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
Painlands and Filterlands aren't fetchable with Flagstones.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
This is an awesome idea, so obvious, I kick myself in the head for not having thought of this. I'm going to try it. I'm beginning to like the green splash more and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
The blue build with white splash seems strong, but the white build with green splash seems stronger in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
@skegi "Painlands and Filterlands aren't fetchable with Flagstones."
I know they aren't fetchable, thats why I said if he was really on a budget and has no other option. I thought of the ravnica dual lands which are alot cheaper than regular dual lands at first, but at the cost of 2 life,so it doesnt come into play tapped... perhaps not since tombs already hurt you a lot.. Mox D would actually cover most of the problems regarding light color splashes..You would probably need at least 2 sources of green aside from mox D.
@scrow
Savannahs are one of the cheapest duals anyway, but I suggest you proxi it first and see how it helps. If you don't like it.. Don't shell out money for it. You can stay mono white as far as im concerned. Its just that splashing a color usually gives you more options even if its a light splash.
Thank you guys. I woke up this morning to a ton of helpful advice. I think I will test out the green splash, as Krosan Grip seems like it can be very very good. I like the fact that it can take out Deed, Disk, EE, Dreadnought, etc and they can't stop it (short of a lucky blind flip off CB).Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
As for SB options and techniques that really helps. The main reason I have the Defense Grids is for Blue Control, since I want a Trinisphere to stay down, and it gives me more of them that they have to counter/remove. Also, since it is a different CMC from Trinisphere, they can't EE both off the field. I guess I will drop them and test out some other options. K.Grip sounds great for sure. Now should I play Choke or Compost or both? It seems like a lot of green out of the board, and I kind of like Aura, Halo, etc.
The green cards would pretty much by definition worth be splashing, so they would presumably be worth two life or waiting a turn most of the time as well. Especially since Flagstone really doesn't care if you're fetching a Temple Garden or Savannah; it's gonna be tapped either way.
Proxying can't hurt, though.
//edit: oh well, too slow.
Gript doesn't help against EE/Deed if they kick it without passing priority. Granted, that's least likely to happen in a matchup like Stax. I guess I'm gonna have to try that as well ... luckily, I just ordered a Savannah just to near completion of my soon-to-be playset of duals.
Yes, until they pass priority, you can't do much even with grips in hand. However, with stax as your deck, it shouldn't be quite a problem. They should be tight on their mana. Meaning they won't be able to pop whatever they got right away without passing priority, or at least the next turn.
Played a short game with Dreadstill, won 2-1 today. I must say resolving a trinisphere wrecks their deck. I didn't encounter too much counterspells though.. It was maybe either he was unlucky or I was lucky. Magus doesn't really do much here. Standstill still kicks stax in the balls. I played the W/u version with thirst for knowledge for card draw.
In my experience Team America is in the favor of Stax. Their manabase is so shaky that a single Wasteland can be enough to win the game, let alone Wastelock. They only play 8 threats in the deck. I'm having a hard time explaining it, but I've never lost a match to TA, and I've played matches probably 5 or 6 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Well I just bought a set of Choke, Krosan Grip, and 2 Temple Garden (easier to spend $12 on a pair of G/W Lands than ~$20 each). I will probably upgrade this later. How would you shift the manabase to accomodate:
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
7x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Kor Haven
1x Horizon Canopy
I figure probably just -2 Plains +2 Dual. Coincidentally, Horizon Canopy also produces green or white, so it provides one more source of either color. That is pretty handy, I must say! Adding the duals means I will have 3 lands that produce green, 4 moxen, and 3 Flagstones to fetch, which sounds pretty stable given the fact that I will only need 1 green out.
I second this. I Lost on Wednesday for the first time, and I've played against it 9-10 times. Usually even If I get screwed a game, I still get the 2/3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Looks stable.. that would be how I would put it if I ran 26 lands... which I actually don't. I cut the 4th city of traitors and never looked back...Quote:
Originally Posted by scrow213
3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
7x Plains
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
[25]
Most straight forward, consistent land config I've been testing over the years.
-
I've been off this threat for quite some time & my stax chore cards have been moved to my trading folder. Stax just hasn't performed as consistently as I wanted it to.
Don't wanna sound like a total dick but the only card that could change my mind about Stax's overall quality would be a 1W Ponder :rolleyes:
Cheers.
You think the 7 lands that tap for :2: is consistent enough for getting early Trinisphere and Chalice? I mean it would save me 12-15 bucks for getting the 4th City, but I don't want to weaken the power of the early plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
In my testing however, mox D, and tombs and 3 traitors were consistent enough.The problem I have was drawing another traitors in the process... Like getting 2 traitors in your opening hand... or drawing another city later on... Just the same with flagstones.. I also cut them to 3...I hated drawing 2 flagstones opening hand, or drawing another flagstones later on... If this however does not happen to you as much.. Then I guess its not a problem if you have 4. It happens to me a lot as I do not tend to be as lucky as other players are. I actually run the bare minimum land count which is 24 lands.. Others play an optimum of 25 and others play it safe with 26. I however do not have any problems with 24 lands and I'm very happy with it(No Kor havens here just because I have never really tested it yet or have a copy).
On the side note, on the process of testing the green splash,if you make it a little more dedicated, what do you think of Knight of reliquary? It becomes very large with an armageddon (which we already have 4 of), it also fetches any land you need as well, from wasteland,kOr haven, factory,tabernacle,flagstones, duals but then again, you can only sac a plains/forest card. It Works well with smokestack, if in any case you didn't attack on your turn, you could tap him on the end of your opponents turn, and get a flagstones for stax fodder. But I guess we run too few plains cards to make him even worth it. But maybe as a 2 of he might work. These are just thoughts however. Do you ever feel the need to tutor for land in this deck? Have you ever played this deck and wanted to tutor for a wasteland, manland or tabernacle or any of the likes? I know how tight the deck is already is, and its hard to actually make some space. I don't really think he is needed... Just wanted to throw out some fresh ideas.
Putrid Imp, Cabal Terapy, Breakthrough, Chain of Vapor, Careful Study...Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Yeah, all of those can't be cast under a Trinisphere, but it's much easier to drop a Chalice turn one than a 3-sphere.
Ichorid hates seeing a Chalice at one. Don't board them out for Needles.
As I very much like the deck, but have always hated :
1) the trouble it can have to deal with a sizeable enemy threat. Against a Drake, a Dreadnought, or whatever unique big threat, the deck is often far too defenseless : a single Ghostly Prison won't be enough most of the time, the potential moat or humility risks coming online too late (or being simply ineffective vs flying for moat), or sometimes even simply a small goblin because the deck stabilized at a too low life level,
2) the desperate craving of filtering this deck has (lots of 4-ofs that are almost needed to be seen but sucks when seen in multiples, ie basically the whole artifact suite),
I've decided to try running this list :
(sideboard certainly unoptimized).Code:// Lands (26)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [LRW] Plains (3)
3 [U] Tundra
1 [ST] Island (4)
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures (3)
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
// Spells (31)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [R] Armageddon
1 [P3] Ravages of War
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [RAV] Compulsive Research
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
As you can see, the principal addition is a very light blue splash, for A) a drawing engine (Compulsive Research), B) maindeck 4x EE with C) Academy Ruins as a two-of.
A) Compulsive research. As a 3-of, I've felt that CR was superior to TfK. Keep in mind that the build is high on land (26), which means I'm more likely to easily discard a land card than an artifact card. A land card is also far more easily reusable via Crucible (4-of) than having to use 2 lands + Ruins (2-of) + a draw step to get back an artifact. I’m running three but I could see running a fourth one. The only thing preventing me from doing that is that the deck usually wants to do a few things first, and only then to reload / get what it’s now lacking, as it’s critical not to give the opponent too much time in the early game to put you in a too difficult position.
As an alternative, and since the deck effective needs would be almost equally filled via filtering than with raw drawing, I’ve considered Omen. Yeah, the 1U Ponder, Ponder itself not being acceptable for the same reason that Entlightened Turor isn’t, ie the 1 cc that is going to be shut down by CotV. On the other hand, beween a 1U Ponder and a 2U CR, the mana difference didn’t appear significant enough anymore to justify only going for the filtering. But I thought it was debatable as at 2 mana, Omen is a card you could also play as a setup card (much like Thresh does with Ponder)… but then you’d probably need to have acces to blue more consistently. All in all, it seemed inferior to CR without doubt, but i guess it’s worth keeping the card in mind.
B) Engineered Explosives. Between Moxen and the light blue splash, there is no problem at all sunbursting it up to 2 (more is obviously more difficult and rarely recommended given the deck’s curve), which is enough for most of the threats in the format (dread, tarmogoyf, etc). Basically, the goal of the card is to fill both Oblivion Ring & Smokestack roles at the same time. Think of it this way : it will cost around the same mana, but will combine Smokestack’s mass destruction with the speed of Oblivion Ring (ie not having to dangerously wait turn after turn while you’re low on life before Smokestack’s effect finally gains the edge over what the opponent can do). I mean, I can see one of the roles of Smokestack is to slow the game down by encouraging the opponent to wait for it to die before resuming his game plan, but that’s usually not what’s happening. Between the time needed to reach four mana, plus the additional turns before it gets active, you’re usually at such a low life that the opponent has a good shot of finishing you off simply by overextending into it to keep his single threat alive a few more turns.
EE solves this problem, and with it being recurrable via Ruins, I really don’t see any reason to look back on that particular change. For those very few match-ups where you risk facing threats that actually cost 3 or more (mainly Chalice aggro decks like Dragon/Faerie Stompy), I’ve put the full Oblivion Ring suite in the board.
C) Academy Ruins. As already said (and pretty obvious), Academy Ruins are here solely to recurr EEs. Well, they always can have an additional use outside of that (giving you back a countered or gripped key artifact like Crucible or any lock piece), but that’s more of an added bonus.
So, here it is. Not that many changes compared to a standard list, but I’ve ended up pretty happy with the result. I’d be glad to hear your comments on this, and potential tests or real-life results if you're willing to try these changes.
I know digging up old threads is bad. But, since I am lacking in resources, is 3 crucible's enough? Or is the 4th that critical?
If this deck could play 5, it would play 8. Play 4x CoW's, it's essential to every gameplan of this deck.
I'll try digging a 4th up. Thanks.
In fact, play 5 anyway. Just don't get caught. :)
Just kidding
OK scrow, Here is my decklist, as I promised...
4 City of Traitor
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Tundra
1 Kor Haven
6 Plains
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smokestax
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Suppression Field
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Thirst For Knowledge
"But Bobby... You're running 62 Cards..."
-Well aware of that. My Choice. No arguement of it. I know the Numbers-
I am intensively testing new cards in the deck, with different idea's, so this is currently what I'm trying. I already went over Suppression Field, so no need to touch base on that again. Only two Smokestacks does suck, I wish I could fit more in, BUT, I'm already over 2 slots, so I would have to take out 3 cards to put in 1 Stax, and I don't know If I'm Comfortable doing that. Thirst for Knowledge, I am testing for myself, and It's been a great card advantage-getter. I still Like angel. I tried Elspeth, and with the way my deck runs, I think Angel is a better decision for it. And the reason will be short - Ghostly Prison. Runed Halo. That's the reason. Elspeth is amazing with Moats and Humilities, but I don't run either.
I want to thank whoever's idea it was to suggest Kor Haven.... I put it in, and Have had nothing but good results from it. I beat F. Stompy and Tombstalker a lot easier tonight. The card is amazing. Thank you Forum's
I Didn't put my sideboard up here, and I'm sorry. I have StP in there, and I do not want to get riddiculed* about it :laugh: Halos, RoL, Supp. Field, O Ring, Grid, StP.
Currently 2-0 in tournaments (I've won 2 in a row 17 ppl and 16 ppl).
The problem however is that this is sorcery speed. And instant speed is always better than sorcery.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
About Academy ruins, I always found it slow,but if you have 4 EE. I guess its worth a try..
@ Onebigsquirrelgod
How is the 62 card decklist working for you? I actually play 61 and I don't seem to get hurt by it at all.
stp on the side isn't much of a problem since you usually side it out or even if you have it in your deck at the same time like say, for dreadnaught, it will be a good back up plan if they take out chalice @ 1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StoicAngel
RAWRRRRRR
72 pages of content and someone still asks this?!! ACK!
On the engineered explosives thing:
What are you specifically using those explosives for exactly? White stax in general tends to scoff at counter balance as well as low cc creatures in general. Problems traditionally come from combo and big things/smallish things holding weapons. Oblivion ring shores up that weakness quite nicely, yet they are nowhere to be seen in the list posted.
Angels have also been revealed to be more of a crutch in a sense. Admittedly, I ran them, however they were the first up to get cut for o-rings.
It honestly seems like not enough testing was done with the original formula before you tried to change it.
I can understand cutting back on two or three lands to make room for horizon canopies, but making a somewhat messy splash for EE and TfK confuses me especially since one of the better reasons to run a splash of blue would be for ruins and not even to have them in conjunction with EE, but just to have them to make sure that a CoW, 3sphere or smoker hits the table.
The only thing is : the whole Armageddon Stax deck is sorcery speed. There is not ONE instant in the deck. The only instant-speed thing in the deck is a few activated abilities (Mishra, and EE + Ruins in the list I posted).Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
In this deck, you wouldn't get any advantage playing the card at instant speed, barring the "now you know i've drawn cards" bit. Quite the opposite, playing it during your own turn is simply the better play anyway. This way you give yourself the possibility to use the cards you just drew without having to wait for your next turn.
I've considered the sorcery thing, and reached the conclusion that it's a complete detail in this deck. But you're right, I should have mentioned that in the previous post.
I quite agree here. It's only a 2-of, and this is the one thing I'm less confidant about. Maybe with 4 EEs, those would be enough anyway. Or maybe if sticking with Ruins then 3 EE would be enough. This is something that would need to be decided with further testing, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
That's the problem : it "tends" to. It doesn't. I'm not talking about CB (which clearly you really don't care about).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Keep in mind we’re also hurting ourselves with Tomb. Using it twice, you’ve already done 20 % of THEIR job alone. Not using it, you’ve mulliganed yourself.
A single Tarmogoyf is enough to put you into trouble. You can’t rely on the 2 or so Oblivion Rings you’re running MD to deal with it. The only plausible way you have to deal with it is combining several lock pieces, ie Ghostly Prison + Smokestack (will need at least two turns to be useful), or Ghostly Prison + Armageddon (at least it’s immediate, but doesn’t solve the problem, that just means he’s two land drops away from finishing you).
Also, have you actually played against competent Goblins opponents ? If so, you should have noticed their propency to simply ignore 8 of our lock pieces (CotV, Trinisphere) thanks to Vial and/or Lackey, the only thing slowing them down being Ghostly Prison. Majority of the time (60 %), you won’t have it in your opening 7, and you’ll be in serious trouble during this game, because by the time it goes online or you’ve found an alternative (4cc Magus + Armageddon, or Armageddon in addition to Ghostly Prison), you’ll be at such a low life that they’ll just manage to get through. If you haven’t experienced that, I can only recommend more testing against this deck, or being glad you’re not facing it in your meta : )
And I've also not even talked about their potential MD answers (Predator, Grip (it happens MD), or simply FoW) !
Angels ? Horizon Canopies ? TfK ? I'm not running any of these. You're mixing up obsg's list in this (which doesn't run EE whih you are mentioning also, so there's definitely a mix-up on your part).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
To clarify things, here is the list I'm talking about once again :
Ruins to ensure Trinisphere hitting the table ? How late are you expecting to do that ? That's a turn 4 thing (turn 3 at the earliest of earliest), how useless is that ?Code:// Lands (26)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [LRW] Plains (3)
3 [u] Tundra
1 [ST] Island (4)
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures (3)
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
// Spells (31)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [R] Armageddon
1 [P3] Ravages of War
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [RAV] Compulsive Research
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
And Smokestack is far too slow. That's the main reason I'm trying EE. Basically every time I lost with the deck was because I stabilized at a too low life level and the aggressive player only had a few damage points to get left. Smokestack is simply useless here. EE deals with the threats RIGHT NOW. Not in three or four turns' time. I know this isn’t what Smokestack is supposed to do, which is why it fails at it. But it’s what the deck needs against any kind of aggressive deck, which is the difficult matchup.
4 Oblivion Ring + 4 Magus handles Goyf. Dreadnought or an early Tombstalker are concerns, but those are really about it that should have you worried.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
How is EE going to help your Goblins matchup? You can take out their Vials/Lackeys, SGC tokens, or Piledriver. Pick one. Then answer their Ringleaders, SGCs and Warchiefs.Quote:
Also, have you actually played against competent Goblins opponents ? If so, you should have noticed their propency to simply ignore 8 of our lock pieces (CotV, Trinisphere) thanks to Vial and/or Lackey, the only thing slowing them down being Ghostly Prison. Majority of the time (60 %), you won’t have it in your opening 7, and you’ll be in serious trouble during this game, because by the time it goes online or you’ve found an alternative (4cc Magus + Armageddon, or Armageddon in addition to Ghostly Prison), you’ll be at such a low life that they’ll just manage to get through. If you haven’t experienced that, I can only recommend more testing against this deck, or being glad you’re not facing it in your meta : )
The difference is that Smokestack can create a hard lock, and furthers the taxing gameplan of Stax. You're right in that it's not an answer when you're behind in board position, but as long as you're not drawing awfully or they're not drawing awesome (I understand these things happen), you should have advantage on the board. Smokestack functions like a different kind of Armageddon, and can effectively end the game against many permanent-light decks (aggro-control, mainly).Quote:
And Smokestack is far too slow. That's the main reason I'm trying EE. Basically every time I lost with the deck was because I stabilized at a too low life level and the aggressive player only had a few damage points to get left. Smokestack is simply useless here. EE deals with the threats RIGHT NOW. Not in three or four turns' time. I know this isn’t what Smokestack is supposed to do, which is why it fails at it. But it’s what the deck needs against any kind of aggressive deck, which is the difficult matchup.
I think the function for which you're looking to use EE is filled in most lists by Prison/Magus. Both of those are big big problems for aggro decks. I'd be curious to know which aggro strategies you're worried about, especially because one of the better aggro decks right now, Merfolk, is not going to complain about you adding an Island.
You seem to want to play this deck reactive-ly, which is not it's intent. Against super-fast aggro strategies it's difficult to be proactive, but trying to change the focus of the deck to improve those match-ups is only going to dilute the prison strategy that makes Stax such an effective deck against almost everything else.
You have a point, regarding instant speed, being a little worthless in stax's case, but nonetheless it will always be better than sorcery speed. If your pointing out that being instant speed is useless because you should cast it now(during your turn)and use what you draw now because it the better play option for stax. I think Tfk being instant speed doesn't make you wait the next turn,you can cast it as soon as you need or want to, actually giving you more options in regards of when you want to draw your cards.There might also be times that you would encounter situations that being instant speed is worth it..Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
Also, I very very rarely get mana flooded with stax, and Stax is quite a mana hungry deck since it has quite high cc spells. I would actually rather discard my extra artifact than my extra land. So In my opinion, Tfk is still better than compulsive research. I don't plan to run academy ruins as I think its too slow.
I don't think aggro is that difficult, as I remember, I have at least a 60-40 or 55-45 match up against aggro or even more. The deck is quite taxing for zoo or goblins. If he drops a first turn lackey , you could have also dropped a first turn chalice or trinisphere early on. Sometimes we do stabalize a bit too late, and at times , Ancient tomb is at fault. I aggre that smokestack is bad for an aggro match up, as I usually side it out as well. Well, EE might work well for you since its usually more versatile than smokestack but with out smokestack, you have actually cut yourself of another win condition. What will you win conditions be ? 4 magus and 2 mishra?Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
Stax existed long long before Crucible of Worlds was printed, and was successful without Crucible of Worlds. Crucible of Worlds is obviously a nice tool in the deck, but as any other card there, it is a tool and nothing else. The correct amount of Crucible of Worlds is entirely metagame dependant. While I would never ever play 4 Crucible of Worlds, I tend to run between 2 and 3 copies depending on the ratio of Aggro I'm expecting to face (more Aggro obviously means less Crucibles).Quote:
Originally Posted by StoicAngel
After 72 pages of content (seriously, cut down on threads size already), the most surprising thing is actually that people mindlessly run 4 Crucible of Worlds. It is not a card you want to see in tons of matchups, and most of the time having it in your opening hand is not great.Quote:
72 pages of content and someone still asks this?!! ACK!
Regardless the instant vs. sorcery speed discussion, Thirst for Knowledge being an instant is hardly relevant since you will always cast it at sorcery speed anyway. No need to wait for the opponent's EOT when you can draw more lock components right now. Since your only real recursion engine is Crucible of Worlds, and since you run high lands for Mox Diamond, Compulsive Research is indeed better than Thirst for Knowledge. In mid or late game, you will be digging for lock components, not for lands. Vintage builds run Thirst for Knowledge or Intuition because of Goblin Welder.
I would never run fewer than 4 Crucible. Yes, Stax existed before Crucible. It got better with Crucible. It existed before Trinisphere too. Got better.
Crucible is key to the strategy of the deck and has incredible synnergy with so many pieces:
Smokestack
Armageddon
Wasteland
Mishra's Factory
Horizon Canopy
Mox Diamond
City of Traitors
Knowing that against decks like Thresh (arguably the best deck in Legacy) a Wasteland + Crucible lock basically wins the game, I won't cut them down. I ran 3 for awhile, added the fourth, and never went back. The "wastelock" also cripples Landstill, Team America, and buys time against Ichorid, etc.
I am not saying you should blindly play 4 Crucible, but you should play 4 Crucible because it's the right number. Obviously if you see nothing but Goblins, maybe change that. Otherwise, play 4.
Crucible of Worlds is definitly not key to the deck's strategy. Smokestack is. Chalice of the Void is. Trinisphere is. Not Crucible. There are plenty matchups where you do not want to draw Crucible of Worlds, and tons more where it is a dedicated late game card.
Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland is not an autowin against Threshold (arguably not the best deck in Legacy, and by far). If they have Tarmogoyf out, you will lose the game if all you are allowed to draw are Crucibles and Wastelands. Against Threshold, Crucible is your win condition, a good one once you have cut down their ressources and hold their threats. Crucible is only good in combination with other much needed cards. It is just plain atrocious on its own. As such, running less than 4 makes complete sense.
4 Crucibles is not the right number. It is just a flawed opinion a lot of players have because they focus on Wasteland recursion, and emphasis the synergy with Smokestack. Smokestack wins the game on its own without needing Crucible of Worlds recursion as a back up, and Wasteland recursion is only relevant when opponent cannot get off it, or win the game. My latest White Stax list, which is a few monthes old because Blue Stax is better, runs 2 Crucible of Worlds. I would not run 3 or 4 unless metagame shifts a lot.
I agree it does. Except you're not running them MD, which means you're more than likely going to have trouble winnning game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
And with the time issues, we all know it will be a challenge for this dek to proceed to win two games fast enough after that.
EE won't take care of them all. It will take care of the currently problematic ones. Either the most dangerous ones at the moment, or simply the ones that are sticking in spite of Magus. In any case, it's a necessary thing to do, and EE is simply the best card to actually do it in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
I know what you mean. That's the basis of how the deck should function. Problem is, the whole Prison / Magus strategy is often too slow in this format. Yes, it's effective, but it still lets the opponent do a few additonal points of damage. And when it comes online, you're far often too close to death already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
The aggro strategies I'm worried are basically... all of them. In almost every instance, I've felt that the current configuration (Prison, Magus, & Stack) was simply a bit too slow to make the cut. I've lost far too many games where everything was in place but i was short even only one or two life points to absorb their final gasp.
In this aspect, the current configuration I'm testing (EE, Ruins, CR) has really shined for me since the beginning. Today again I won a match against Faerie Stompy because I've been able to repeatedly deal with two Sea Drakes (the first one was equipped with SoFI) thanks to a single recurring EE @ 3. There is no way I could have done that with any kind of Prison / Stack / Oblivion Ring combination (unless by seeing multiple Rings). Stack would have just done nothing in time, and O Ring would have taken care of the first Drake, but would have left the equipment on the table and not done anything about the second Drake.
Finally, you're very correctly mentioning the potential repercussion on the deck's effectiveness against other strategies. Let me ask you : are there any matchups where the loss of Smokestack & O Ring for EE, Ruins and a drawing suite is that much of a problem ?
Yes, that's what they are, except it's only 3 Maguses. So far it hasn't proved a problem, mainly because I usually end up stabilizing and taking control on a higher life total and thus can swing more agressively. But i could understand it if the need for something additional were to arise.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
On the instant vs sorcery thing, see Toad's post (or mine last page), as this is my position exactly.
Ok, first of all, let's start with this argument:Quote:
Originally Posted by Toad
That has to be the most retarded point I have ever heard. If that situation is the case and all you draw is (Trinisphere, Chalice, lands, Mox Diamond, etc) you will lose. I didn't say against Thresh you want to draw a ton of Crucibles and Wastelands. It is reasonble that in addition to Wasteland and Crucible you will draw (Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison), in which case you will quickly stabilize, and they will not have much hope for attacking. (And just to note, saying it is arguably the best deck also means it is arguably not the best deck)Quote:
Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland is not an autowin against Threshold. If they have Tarmogoyf out, you will lose the game if all you are allowed to draw are Crucibles and Wastelands.
Also the synnergy with Armageddon, and our ability to quickly recover and set a lock. There is that part too. I am less likely to throw down an Armageddon knowing I have 1-2 Crucibles buried somewhere in my deck than if I know there are 4. It also means Factory becomes a permanent chump blocker and Horizon Canopy doubles our draws every turn. Additionally, if you "focus on Wasteland recursion" against decks that worry about Wasteland (Thresh, Team America, Landstill, etc), that's probably a solid play. And placing "emphasis on the synergy with Smokestack" also chews up your opponents resources, and when combined with other cards in the deck wins you the game.Quote:
4 Crucibles is not the right number. It is just a flawed opinion a lot of players have because they focus on Wasteland recursion, and emphasis the synergy with Smokestack.
The point is, I will always want an early Crucible and I never mind seeing a second one either. Several decks have removal for it, and I can always throw it away to a Stack if I need to. You can play your 2 Crucibles, I will continue to enjoy the consistent draws that makes Stax good.
I usually dont reply to blatant and pointless flames, but still, since you do not seem to understand how Stax works ...Quote:
That has to be the most retarded point I have ever heard.
First thing is here, a turn one Crucible of Worlds does nothing relevant. A turn one Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere stops Threshold down cold. I want my opening cards to be relevant on turn one when I play Stax, since most of my game plan revolves around this opening hand. Turn one Crucible of Worlds is a very weak play on its own.Quote:
If that situation is the case and all you draw is (Trinisphere, Chalice, lands, Mox Diamond, etc) you will lose.
Magus of the Tabernacle is enough for stopping Tarmogoyf, no need for Crucible of Worlds here. Furthermore, if you have Ghostly Prison or Magus of the Tabernacle out, a single Wasteland is usually enough. If not, Engineered Explosives or Ensnaring Bridge will do the job faster than Crucible of Worlds. When facing threats, Crucible is clearly the last card I want to draw.Quote:
It is reasonble that in addition to Wasteland and Crucible you will draw (Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison), in which case you will quickly stabilize, and they will not have much hope for attacking.
If you need to chump block every single turn, you are in a pretty bad shape already. I dislike running cards that shine when I'm losing. Once again, instead of drawing this Crucible, I'd rather have drawn an Explosives, or an Oblivion Ring. Cards that do actual stuff here.Quote:
It also means Factory becomes a permanent chump blocker
A cute late game play that does not require you to run 4 Crucibles, since, well, it is late game only. A weak argument overall. You do not even run 4 Horizon Canopy anyway. Instead of Canopy + Crucible, you could have gone for Academy + Explosives instead, for the same global effect. (reinforcing a lock). It is fairly obvious to see that Explosives is better than Crucible early game.Quote:
Horizon Canopy doubles our draws every turn
These are 3 good matchups, even without Wasteland recursion. Having access to Wasteland recursion does not turns the matchup around, and is thus not a needed play and definitly not an argument for running 4. Once again, running actual answers is better than a topdecked Crucible there.Quote:
Additionally, if you "focus on Wasteland recursion" against decks that worry about Wasteland (Thresh, Team America, Landstill, etc), that's probably a solid play.
Smokestack chews up the opponent resources, you do not need Crucible of Worlds to do that. 100% of your deck is a permanent, so you can handle Smokestack @ 1 forever, without the need of Crucible of Worlds. No opposing deck can do this.Quote:
And placing "emphasis on the synergy with Smokestack" also chews up your opponents resources
A deck running 4 offs only is not always consistent. You can run 1 offs and 2 offs, and still have a consistent deck - see Vintage decks for example. You can have 4 offs only, and still be horribly inconsistent - see Belcher for example. Stax is not good because it has 4 offs all the way. It is good because it has 4 Wasteland, 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere. Everything else is fillers. Even if it runs 4 offs only, White Stax will always lack consistency since it relies on fast mana to power out its spells, and completely lacks card draw and tutors to smooth his topdecks. Threshold is consistent, Stax is not. Running 2 or 3 Crucibles does not make Stax less consistent. It actually decreases the mulligan rate, as hands with 2 Crucibles should be automatically sent back.Quote:
I will continue to enjoy the consistent draws that makes Stax good.
The only matchup where you NEED 4 Crucible of Worlds is the mirror match, because Crucible is the best card there. Stax mirrors are yet to be heard of on a large Legacy scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toad
Not a flame. That point was useless. I didn't say you should drop Crucible first turn. An opening Chalice or Trinisphere hurts Thresh, but hardly stops the deck. Magus stops 1 'goyf. Magus and Prison can stop 2. So can Magus + wastelock. Or Prison and Wastelock. EE is tough to play in this deck, even with Moxen. Ensnaring Bridge has been discussed and dismissed. If I need to chump every turn, and am in bad shape, at least I am not dead. It will at least buy me a few turns to find an out. I already have O-Rings, so that point fails to show why I should drop Crucibles. Smokestack gets infinitely better with Crucible. With Crucible you can run Smokestack @2 indefinitely, which is much harder for them to cope with. Vintage runs lots of low-count cards, given that they have tutors and lots of draw. See Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, etc.
If White Stax lacks consistency, as you claim, then why would you run a 2-of card, further decreasing the consistency? Seeing 2 Crucible is as likely as 2 Trinisphere, also useless, or 2 of any other card in the deck. With no real draw power, why wouldn't you run 4 of all the hard-lock pieces? It just allows you to get the lock down sooner, more reliably.
As I already stated, consistency is not related to the amount of 4-ofs you play. Playing only 2 Crucible of Worlds does not decrease consistency.
I run all the hard-lock pieces as a 4 of. That is, Smokestack, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Wasteland. These are the important pieces here.Quote:
With no real draw power, why wouldn't you run 4 of all the hard-lock pieces?
I also run 4 Magus of the Tabernacle and 4 Ghostly Prison, since even if these are not hard-lock pieces, I want one in my opening hand. The only cards I do not run as a 4 of are the conditional cards, or these I do not want to see in my opening hand, and this includes Crucible of Worlds (which falls in both categories). Since Crucible is not part of the core lock engine, I do not mind not drawing one for the first part of the game, and often for the entire game.
@PL
I think confusing your list with with OBSG's list is more accurate. If you want to make a rebuttal or something, that's cool, but I wasn't talking about your list...nor had I ever seen it before you posted it the most recently.
Dear Frog:
Crucible is one of the best cards in the deck. All of the cards that are better than Crucible are in there because they are good with Crucible. I'm talking Smokestack, Armageddon, lands. All these cards get better when your graveyard is also your hand. Chalice of the Void isn't one of the best cards. In some matchups it's obviously great, and it can win the game if it stops an opponents land-light Brainstorm. However I've never won a game because I drew Chalice on turn 4. I have won a game because I drew Crucible on turn 4. Or whatever. I'm sure you get it.
Dear Scrow:
Let's keep it clean. I agree with your views but the manner in which you are presenting them is destructive and an eyesore on my computer. See you at the Grand Prix.