[Deck] Death and Taxes

I probably am missing something, but it actually seems like t1 duelist, t2 mystic, t3 jitte, t4 equip, which is about half an eternity in Legacy time. Also, how is that game for Zoo? They have upwards of twice as much removal as your Duelists and Mystics combined; surely they can draw into one before you swing equipped on turn 4.

This all hinges on the assumption that you're opening with a Duelist and a Mystic (in the first 8-9 cards) , which at 3/3 isn't guaranteed.

I think it CAN work wonderfully, but I'm not sure that "double strike when equipped" is consistently good enough to choose it over other options.

So then they waste a removal spell on a 1/1 creature and not on your Avenger?

I'll gladly bolt your creature to foil 4 turns worth of development, and I wouldn't consider it a waste. Sure you have the mana to cast another two-drop on the fourth turn, but if we assume a level playing field Zoo would have done more than just cast a single bolt in its 4 turns as well.

In fact, your comment identifies the real threat here: it's not the Duelist or the Avenger, but rather the Jitte on the field. Avenger trades with a Nacatl, but Avenger with Jitte eats entire armies.

Again, I can see that Duelist can be amazingly good in some situations. My question is whether it's consistently good enough to merit three precious maindeck spaces. I'm not yet convinced that it's at that level.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

I'll gladly bolt your creature to foil 4 turns worth of development, and I wouldn't consider it a waste. Sure you have the mana to cast another two-drop on the fourth turn, but if we assume a level playing field Zoo would have done more than just cast a single bolt in its 4 turns as well.

In fact, your comment identifies the real threat here: it's not the Duelist or the Avenger, but rather the Jitte on the field. Avenger trades with a Nacatl, but Avenger with Jitte eats entire armies.

Again, I can see that Duelist can be amazingly good in some situations. My question is whether it's consistently good enough to merit three precious maindeck spaces. I'm not yet convinced that it's at that level.

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I'd actually beg to differ on your statement that you're foiling "4 turns of development." You aren't foiling it at all. Consider these two situations:
T1 duelist
T2 mystic
T3 equipment
T4 equip, attack, etc.

Obviously as soon as they see the duelist they remove it. Now the second situation:
T1 mom
T2 mystic
T3 equipment
T4 equip, attack, etc.

What's the difference between the two situations? One is "win more," the other is more defensive. But in both situations they they try to remove you're one mana spell ASAP, and in both situations you win with an equipment. Let's consider a third situation:
T1 Vial (assume it's vialing in threats the rest of the game)
T2 mystic
T3 equpment
T4 equip, attack, etc.

You see the pattern, right? You aren't building around the duelist. The duelist is just icing. A T2 mystic is what's causing all the problems with your opponent. Yes, duelist is taking up three valuable slots, but one slot is supposed to be a third mangara in the optimal list, and if you recall I have no Karaki at the moment, making 3 mangara sub-optimal. As for the other two slots, they bring the number of CMC1 creatures up to 6, which helps the mana curve and feeds the vial@1. Just think of them as a replacement for Goldmeadow Harrier (which I do not like).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HAL

Obviously as soon as they see the duelist they remove it.

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That would be a misplay. Better to tempt them into equipping, and make them lose two mana and a creature instead of just the creature. Mom is another issue altogether: she's more often considered kill on sight because her ability can fire at instant speed.

Ultimately we agree that the equipment is the true threat, and not the Duelist. Without equipment, the Duelist is much less threatening. With any creature (a third of most D&T decks), the equipment can perform well. Instead of having a creature who magnifies (but depends on) equipment, I'd rather have a one-drop that does something else and works by itself. It's a matter of playstyle, and in fact I'm glad that you're trying different things. =)

I would like to agree with HAL, but he is off in a few small but major ways. Duelist and Mystic are vialed in. This is essential since D+T's lands are being used for mana denial. Kor Duelist gets there more than you think BECAUSE he is never being hardcast. Removal is harder for them to use against your equipped critters when they are being kept off of their W or R mana.

Mother of Runes is a serious threat (to your opponent's removal engine(s)) as soon as she loses summoning sickness. Kor Duelist has the potential of becoming a threat once he ain't sick no more, is equipped, attacking AND dealing combat damage. And that's really a lot of "ifs" there, actually.

I don't debate that Kor Duelist has no chance whatsoever to be great, or even a deciding factor in a few games where you actually manage to make him hit with something strapped onto his back. But let's face it, there's lots of one-drops that do a lot more, and are a lot less conditional, than Kor Duelist. That's why I wouldn't run it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LegacyDan

I would like to agree with HAL, but he is off in a few small but major ways. Duelist and Mystic are vialed in. This is essential since D+T's lands are being used for mana denial. Kor Duelist gets there more than you think BECAUSE he is never being hardcast. Removal is harder for them to use against your equipped critters when they are being kept off of their W or R mana.

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Yes. This.

Anyway, what would you use instead of kor duelist? It's like running the urza lands in an EDH deck. Sure, most of time they're just colorless lands, but what would you use instead? And if that "what if" scenario happens, you're put way ahead of your opponent in mana. Risk vs. Reward. The risk is near 0, and the reward is slightly above that. There's just not a big reason not to use duelist.

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Originally Posted by colo

Mother of Runes is a serious threat (to your opponent's removal engine(s)) as soon as she loses summoning sickness. Kor Duelist has the potential of becoming a threat once he ain't sick no more, is equipped, attacking AND dealing combat damage. And that's really a lot of "ifs" there, actually.

I don't debate that Kor Duelist has no chance whatsoever to be great, or even a deciding factor in a few games where you actually manage to make him hit with something strapped onto his back. But let's face it, there's lots of one-drops that do a lot more, and are a lot less conditional, than Kor Duelist. That's why I wouldn't run it.

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So lets take a look at this then. Mom is already used in the deck. Kor Duelist plays well off of the decks equipment package, plus mom protects him very well.

What are the other cards you are talking of? Figure of Destiny? Tried and rejected. He is good, but rarely did it grow beyond a 2/2. Isamaru? It did good things with Karakas but M10 kinda nerfed him. Maybe you can tell us what the other options are?

I played in at 39-men tournament at my LGS this sunday, with my GW list using the W-tutor toolbox on the side (and 2 Path to Exile). I went:

Round 1: Burn/Mono Red
1st game - He goes out fast, and kills me the turn before I get there.

I side out 4 Arbiters (he doesn't play fetchs) and 1 Vial for 3 W-Tutor, 1 Kor Firewalker and 1 Kitchen Finks.

2nd game - 1st turn W-tutor, 2nd turn Walker, 3rd turn Stoneforge Mystic --> Jitte, Win

3rd game - same as 2nd game.
2-1

Round 2: Rgb Goblins
1st game - A vialed Arbiter in response to him cracking a fetch for Badlands seals the game, as he is holding 3 x Warren Weirding but he is unable to cast them (and I play around his Gempalm Incinerator).

I side out 3 Gaddock Teeg (I know he doesn't play Pyrokinesis) and another card and in goes 3 W-Tutor and 1 Tivadar of Thorn.

2nd game - He kills my 1st mom, but I have a turn 3 Tivadar that gets one Piledriver. I stall the ground until I get a Serra Avenger + Jitte and I win.
2-0

Round 3: Right now I'm pretty motivated, as I get to play on the 1st table. But...of course I'll play against a good player.

1st game - I don't know what he's playing, so I keep what I think is a good hand (no removal or Vial, but Qasali + double Goyf + lands to play them).
Turns out he's playing dredge, so I don't really have a chance without Teeg. I die twice, as Iona rules the sky and a horde of zombies stall the gound.

I wasn't expecting dredge, so I'm pretty bummed as I only have 2 Faerie Macabre and 1 Jötun Grunt to side in; the E-tutor package would give me 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus and 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, which is superior against dredge. I side out the 4 Arbiters, 2 Mangaras, 2 Vials for 3 W-tutor, 2 Faerie, 1 Jötun, 2 Path to Exile.

2nd game - Whoa. I've got both Faerie and a W-tutor on my opening hand. I win, as he doesn't expect that from my deck and I cripple him.

3rd game - I suck, and keep a hand with no hate (only gaddock teeg + path) after mulliganing to 6. I kept that because I thought he would keep as slow hand with therapies, but he didn't. He kept a fairly slow hand, and he beats me on his last extra turn.
1-2

Round 4: Merfok 16(?) lords
1st game - he comes out fast, I try to kill his lords but he counters my 3 (!) StP and when I'm going to stabilize, he plays a Sovereign and I lose to an unblockable 5/5 Mutavault.

I side out the Arbiters (he doesn't play fetches) for 2 W-Tutor and 2 Path.

2nd game - He comes out fast again, but this time I block earlier, tax his mana with wasteland. There are good plays:
- I have a Stoneforge Mystic equipped with a SoFaI ready to kick to some fish ass. When I connect, he vials Kira, great glass-spinner. Too bad I have Karakas.
- He has a gigantic Coralhelm Commander killing me. I'm about to lose, but FINALLY I rip Mangara and I win.

3rd game - More or less like game two, but this time he has a a Jitte-equipped Coralhelm Commander vs. my SoFaI Serra Avenger. I win the race thanks to Mother of Runes and Mangara (without Karakas with time).
2-1

Round 5: Mighty Quinn. Wow, I don't want to play this matchup...I'm pretty sure I'll lose, his deck laughs at creatures decks...

1st game - I race, race, race, through 2 Wrath of God and at least 1 StP. I end having a Gaddock teeg with Jitte, and he doesn't have more answers...except for a Runed Halo. I manage to draw lands and another Gaddock while he assembles Painter's Servant + Grindstone and kills me. He's at 1 (!) life.

I side out the StP for more beef (Canonist and True Believer) and W-Tutors.

2nd game - I race, race, race, and manage to win through 2 StP and one Wrath. Phewwwww...

3rd game - Big punt on my part. I have W-Tutor on the opening hand, and I agonize over what to get with it (Gaddock or Qasali)...I choose Qasali Pridemage (in case he has a fast kill). Next turn he plays Humility. I cry. Next turn he plays Moat. I concede.
1-2

Round 6: MonoU (with Volcanic Island and Tropical island for Engineered Explisves). At this point I'm pretty tired since I'm not used to playing 6 rounds of magic, and even I know what he's playing and the matchup is very winnable with the correct cards, I have the vague feeling I'll punt.

1st game - I know that Vial and teeg are vital in this matchup, so I keep a hand with critters and one Teeg. He counters my first two baits, but he also has the counter for my Teeg. The game is lost there, even though I manage to kill a Jace, as he recurs the explosives over and over. I die to Sphinx of Jwar Isle holding a StP.

I side out the StP for...I think it was some Faeries and W-Tutor.

2nd game - I punt, keeping a hand that didn't have Teeg nor Vial, but was pretty good otherwise. He has a grip full of counters and EE, so I don't have a chance.
0-2

Overall, I went 3-3. I know that this isn't spectacular, but hadn't I punted I could have had a much better record (4-2 at the very least). I'll replay the list this Saturday, maybe with minor tweaks on the side.

Any thoughts on creatures that can fight the graveyard other than Jötun Grunt and Faerie Macabre?
Any thoughts on creatures that can fight monoU? I'm thinking of River Boa...

Guys, I've read for the last few weeks that some (many) of you were sceptical about the inclusion of Leonin Arbiter in the MD.
I have to say that in my experience, he was incredible!
He always annoyed my opponents and stole me games. I can't imagine D&T without him : this card was printed for monowhite decks, playing manadenials like Ports and Wastelands!

I played a tournament last week-end and he was golden! T1 Vial, T2 Port, T3 Vial Arbiter in response to opponent cracking a fetch happened more than once. After that it is difficult for the opponent to recover.

I posted a report for those who'd be interested by it : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...h-Taxes-31-ppl

Like i've said, Arbiter rocks and i only can recommend you to insert the full playset in your MD, guys.
Furthermore, I've never been annoyed by the bad interractions with Stoneforge Mystic. It surely requires us to adapt our strategy, but that can only improve the deck.

Creatures (25)
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Ruins
4x Serra Avenger
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Jötun Grunt
2x Kor Duelist

Spells (6)
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivion Ring

Artifacts (7)
4x AEther Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands (22)
9x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
3x Wasteland
2x Flagstones of Trokair

Sideboard
3x Cataclysm
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Wing Shards
2x Jötun Grunt
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Leonin Arbiter
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Me and LegacyDan were talking at my local and I decided to make a list and possible start building this. This is what Ive came up with between watching the deck be played and seeing what people here are saying. How does this look? Also, how good is the E-Tutor sideboard? I usually use a conventional side, but I did love the Mystical Tutor board of ANT. I also want to find room for +1 Oblivion Ring and +1 Umezawa's Jitte. I dont want to cut the Kor Duelists and I dont want to play Goldmeadow Harrier. Harrier just seems terrible too often.

I suppose some of my distrust in the manascrewing ability came from the fact I had no ports. I should get a few Flagstones for interests sake.

Flagstones is a weird part of the deck honestly. They can easily be Plains, but it just feels "off" if they are not in there.

its completely fine to play flagstones in MD if you are playing cataclysm sideboard, i am playing aura of silence over cataclysm, so i do not need the flagstones main

Time to go Online!!!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=281630

I can't wait to play EXILER!

Seriously, the name change? Why? Anyways, the build only has one glaring flaw. Bonesplitter. That says enough. It also could use some tweakin in other areas, however, I'm fairly positively surprised by the fact that Wizards made an ok pre-con. Too bad it's online only.

I might end up spending the some 45 euros it takes me to get it and tweak it a bit if I ever have it.

Yes, I agree that thew name is pretty lame, but...the idea is sweet. Also, the list needs some upgrading, but I think that it's a step in the right direction from Wizards to promote Legacy (at least online).

I have an account that I rarely use and I think that I'll buy this. Actually, I'm 99% sure that I'll buy it...

Too bad that this kind of thing will never happen in paper magic... :(

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Originally Posted by Lorgalis

Yes, I agree that thew name is pretty lame, but...the idea is sweet. Also, the list needs some upgrading, but I think that it's a step in the right direction from Wizards to promote Legacy (at least online).

I have an account that I rarely use and I think that I'll buy this. Actually, I'm 99% sure that I'll buy it...

Too bad that this kind of thing will never happen in paper magic... :(

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Yeah, sadly it won't happen in paper, but we can dream right?

I'm definitely picking up one of the two, I just haven't decided which one yet. I predominately play pauper online, when i play, so it'd be my first break into legacy on MTGO.. I've got like 50 tix i could spend in upgrades, i just haven't decided which deck would be better yet. I've played enough burn in real life and competitively to have a great feel of the ins and outs of the deck, but I might get the D&T deck just for the fact that its' something different that i'd never play IRL due to Karakas.

I know what the advice would be out of this thread, obviously :) but i just wanted to comment on the online deck series, and not necro the old thread for it.

I know that landstill is a weak matchup but what possible cards in the sb would make it less abysmal?

i would think of needle and abolish, for example, at least if you are playing against the UBG list, i do not know about the UWx lists

but not sure how usefull these cards would be in this matchup, i am using mainly runed halo for jace and factorys but deed is still the main problem

Runed Halo on Jace is awful. Runed Halo on Factory is awful. Landstill beats you with one thing: card economy. It does not beat you with Mishra's Factory any more than an anaconda kills with its mouth.

Pithing Needle is a good plan. In fact, 4 Needlles is probably good. Against Landstill there are a lot of Needle targets you really have to hit. But the best plan is to put it on a clock. D+T is not especially good at that. Remember to side out your equipment and Mystics. And spot removal of creatures. Ports and Wastelands can be effective against Landstill in some matches. Vial is, of course, are extremely good. Mother of Runes is occasionally very good. Hokori, Dust Drinker is agood. But the big finisher is Cataclysm.

If I was playing against Landstill, I'd probably side out StPs and Jitte to bring in 2x Cataclysm and 3x Leonin Arbiter. Maybe the last Grunt.

For reference, my SB:

3x Kitchen Finks
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Wing Shards
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt

I played against 2 Landstills this weekend, and...I hated it.

1st Landstill was the UBg list. I was running my list with W-tutor on the side, so I had no outs to Pernicious Deed. He won easily.

2nd was the UW list. Very close first game, but I lose. I won 2nd game with a Qasali Pridemage equipped with both a Jitte and a SoLaS. 3rd game, I open a hand with 3 (!) Gaddock Teeg. However, I somehow manage to lose as I have no vial :(.

So I am thinking to add 2 Krosan Grip. My sideboard (GW) is:

2 Krosan Grip
3 Worldly Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Scryb Ranger
1 True Believer
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Faerie Macabre

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Originally Posted by Finn

Pithing Needle is a good plan. In fact, 4 Needlles is probably good. Against Landstill there are a lot of Needle targets you really have to hit.

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Seconded. It especially shines against (the more popular nowadays) Ugb lists, as stopping deed and jace is crucial in this MU. Between this and the surge of survival decks, I just don't understand people playing less than 4 needles in the SB.

Agreed, the usefulness of pithing needle (and to a lesser extent, leonin arbiter) has me thinking about departing from the tutor sideboard in favour of a more conventional one.

Here's the list i'm using now for reference:

Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
5 Plains
1 Forest
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Other
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Runed Halo
1 Meekstone
1 Gaddock Teeg

The SoBaM is just there because I'm testing it right now. If it isn't good enough, it'll probably make space for another tutor or an extra kgrip.

If i was to change the sideboard, it'd probably look something like

3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Kitchen Finks / Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip

Thoughts?

From the games that i have played, i never had issues regarding the leonin arbiter and the tutor board... the same goes with the stoneforge mystics... it's all about knowing the matchups and which cards to play first in those specific matchups...that and a little bit of luck i guess...:)

Where do you see the deck heading, in terms of overall strategy? People seem to be liking the idea of splashing green in for Goyf and Pridemage, which gives a little more utility but a lot more combat power. Do we need that power, or would our overall effectiveness be better served by making better use of our creature tricks?

Over at MTGS someone posted a high-finishing list with green for Pridemage and Scryb Ranger. The Ranger saves Savannahs from Wasteland, acts as pseudo mana sources by themselves, doubles the effect of Mangara, Mom, and Harrier, carries equipment over blockers' heads, blocks huge flying Merfolk all day, is immune to Jace and Echoing Truth, and does all of that at surprise speeds. As always, Goyf is "just" big.

So the question again is utility or size. Personally I'm thrilled with the additional tricks that Scryb Ranger advertises, but sometimes you just need a ton of meat. Thoughts?

I'd go for the splash if I had the money for 4x Savannah and 4x Tarmogoyf. I'll probably just stick with MW for those reasons.

If i was playing the green list i would be playing Linving Wish (Life and Taxes). It'd grab you Karakas in a pinch, and it'd allow you to grab what you need in the sideboard. Normally i'd place a Mom, Managara, Karakas and then some specific hate. I don't like Goyf as he doesn't have anything to actually offer the deck, for "dumb beats" i'd might as well run KotR since he can at least grab you the land you need.

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Originally Posted by Parax

If i was playing the green list i would be playing Linving Wish (Life and Taxes). It'd grab you Karakas in a pinch, and it'd allow you to grab what you need in the sideboard. Normally i'd place a Mom, Managara, Karakas and then some specific hate. I don't like Goyf as he doesn't have anything to actually offer the deck, for "dumb beats" i'd might as well run KotR since he can at least grab you the land you need.

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saying that Tarmogoyf has nothing to offer the deck is a might bit unfair. For one thing Tarmogoyf has the ability to block other Tarmogoyf's all day long. That is something that none of this decks other creatures can do (at least not without Sword of Body and Mind equipped). Additionally, when combined with Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf becomes a force that can beat through defending Tarmogoyfs. Which isn't that shabby of a prospect in and of itself.

Ultimately, the only real advantage that Knight of the Reliquary has over Tarmogoyf, is that it can tutor up lands. And in order to do so it needs to sacrifice lands to begin with. In my personal opinion that is a trade off that this deck cannot afford easily. Thus I am against using Knight of the Reliquary in this deck.

Personally I think having Mangara and Flickerwisp is enough tricks. The way I see it,Mangara and Mum are major lightning rods, so I prefer not to use cards like Scryb Ranger which need other cards on the board to do their cute tricks.

The flying is only relevant if we can get an equip on it, and usually the protection from the equip gives evasion anyway. The pro-blue is useful, but usually doesn't do very much. I've never had much of a problem against merfolk, so Scryb Ranger isn't really necessary in my opinion.

On the other hand, the goyf is good on its own and puts them on a clock - something that this deck often struggles to do.

So yes, we do lose some utility by playing goyf over say, Jotun Grunt or Scryb Ranger, but I think the bigger body and faster block is worth it.

As for Living Wish, I've tested it and found it to be extremely slow. This deck doesn't need to set up Karakas/Mangara in order to win - it's just a nice bonus. Using Living Wish to fetch your hate is also far too slow - especially if you don't have an active vial, which, for me, happens quite often.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

saying that Tarmogoyf has nothing to offer the deck is a might bit unfair. For one thing Tarmogoyf has the ability to block other Tarmogoyf's all day long. That is something that none of this decks other creatures can do (at least not without Sword of Body and Mind equipped). Additionally, when combined with Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf becomes a force that can beat through defending Tarmogoyfs. Which isn't that shabby of a prospect in and of itself.

Ultimately, the only real advantage that Knight of the Reliquary has over Tarmogoyf, is that it can tutor up lands. And in order to do so it needs to sacrifice lands to begin with. In my personal opinion that is a trade off that this deck cannot afford easily. Thus I am against using Knight of the Reliquary in this deck.

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Actually, Jotun eats up opposing goyfs...and mother can chump block it all day too...

Another trick with scryb ranger would be untapping a creature on your opponent's turn to block (imagine if the creature you untapped had a jitte equipped)...i think with all the tricks scryb ranger give the deck, it should warrant the slot over tarmogoyfs...in the right situation, scryb ranger turns the game into a blowout... which is basically in line with the whole direction of the deck, wherein you take small unexpected tricks and add them all up to cripple the enemy... time to save up for some savannahs!

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Actually, Jotun eats up opposing goyfs...and mother can chump block it all day too...

Another trick with scryb ranger would be untapping a creature on your opponent's turn to block (imagine if the creature you untapped had a jitte equipped)...i think with all the tricks scryb ranger give the deck, it should warrant the slot over tarmogoyfs...in the right situation, scryb ranger turns the game into a blowout... which is basically in line with the whole direction of the deck, wherein you take small unexpected tricks and add them all up to cripple the enemy... time to save up for some savannahs!

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Chumping a Goyf with Mother of Runes is usually a bad policy, especially against decks such as Zoo where you should be saving Mother of Runes activations for protecting your creatures from removal. As far as Jotun Grunt is concerned, I have found that often times that he is as much of a hindrance as a benefit when it comes to eating goyfs. Mainly because while he does shrink both Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary in the short term, he does not in actuality ANSWER them permanently, unless your opponent is desperate enough to either attack into the Grunt or block the Grunt. Which is to say most opponents I have encountered unless they are sitting at extremely low life already, tend to not be desperate enough to do so. Thus I would rather have my own Goyf instead of the Grunt.

And yes, Scryb Ranger is simply amazing in the Green White version of the deck. It is perhaps one of the best innovations to come to the deck that I have seen in some time.

Can somebody post a list with maindeck Scryb Ranger? Because I play a GW list and has one in the sidem, but in the last two events I attented to I never sided it in...

Also, Living Wish is not good in this deck. Too slow. I have tested it and never liked it. Same thing for Knight of the Reliquary. The idea is that once you put green in the mix, you're not so reliant on Mangara + Karakas. They are just a bonus, or something that gives you inevitability on the long game.

I am interested in looking at other people's GW lists, so if you're kind enough to post them or PM them to me...

Does anybody use Sylvan Library in GW build? It seems to be good.

4 mothers of the runes
4 flickerwisp
3 mangara of corondor
4 qasali priedmage
3 scryb ranger
3 stoneforge mystic
4 aeter vial
4 oblivion ring
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
4Windswept Heath
3 savannah
2 plains
1 forest
3 karakas
4 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port

Here's the list posted in MTGS that top 8'd in a 65-man tourney in Lucca, Italy although the sideboard is unknown...:(
Personally i don't think the list is optimal as having 4 qasali pridemages and 4 oblivion rings is overkill... also it runs 24 lands which i think is too much too... maybe removing some o-rings and some lands to fit in 4 serra avengers and maybe 2 grunts...but that's just my personal observation... having 10 ways to get 2 mangara activations (3 karakas, 3 scryb ranger and 4 flickerwisp) is full of win for me in mws testing... it's really hard to come back from... sadly i don't own savannahs yet in real life...

Yes, I can fully agree that this list *seems* a bit sketchy, however, making top 8 in a 65-man event is nice indeed. What I don't like:

- 4 Wasteland + 3 Rishadan Port in a deck with that plays 2 colors. That seems to open the door to mana problems.

- 24 lands? Really? Seems too much. I'd cut 2 at least.

- 4 Oblivion Ring and 4 Pridemage. I think we can safely cut the 4 Oblivion Rings.

- No Goyf nor Avenger? Those 2 are, without a doubt, the best beaters available to this archetype.

Those were my thoughts too. I'm not too disappointed by the lack of Goyfs in itself, but taking out Avenger and Grunt at the same time seems to weaken the deck significantly. Quoting myself:

Quote:

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The Green additions are interesting, but the list overall is a little confusing. Why the need for O-Rings and Pridemages, and four of each no less? They're both awesome cards, but there's an overall reduction in combat strength (-Serra Avenger, -Jotun Grunt, +Pridemage) in the build as posted. Also, there's a reduction of versatility (-Grunt, -Harrier) in creature tricks. Folks have considered cutting Rings anyway and replacing them with Wispmares and the like.

Scryb Ranger seems like an awesome choice, but since her ability can be used to increase the effective mana in the deck, the increase to 24 land also seems suspect.

From the list as posted, I'd propose taking away 4-6 Rings and Pridemages, and adding back 3-4 Avengers and 1-2 Harriers. The Harriers have the additional advantage of working well with the Rangers.

Something tells me the manabase could also use some help, but I'm not quite sure how to improve that. Any ideas?

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Is the GW list worth getting without Goyf?

I might just splurge on the 3-4 Fetches I need as well as saving up for a few dual lands. The abiltiy to splash MD Qasali is handy. SB Gaddock Teeq and Krosan Grip is also nice. Scryb Ranger seems really interesting as well.

Would something like this seem sensible:

4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara
4x Serra Avenger
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Scry Ranger
4x Mother of Runes

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Oblivion Ring

4x Windswepth Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Savannah
3x Karakas
3x Plains
2x Forest

SB:
3x Wing Shards
3x Krosan Grip
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Gaddock Teeq
3x Tormod's Crypt

I might end up cutting down to two Savannahs to fit my budget and replace one with a 5th fetch of indeterminate type. How does it seem for a no-goyf list? Should the Oblivion Rings be cut along with 1 Avenger or something else to fit 3x Knight of the Reliquary? I would like to try to fit Jötun Grunts and Cataclysm in there somewhere.